Review NAB Challenge game Rnd 2. Sydney V GWS at Drummoyne Oval

[Swansujelly]

Same responses every pre season, we're crap, can't hit a target etc. Relax, well be fine.

 

[swansfan51]

Same responses every pre season, we're crap, can't hit a target etc. Relax, well be fine.

We'll step up in the finals where it matters

 

[RW]

You guys crack me up.

 

[kneecapper]

You can't have it both ways - you can't both claim that the gameplan is bad and that our players executed it poorly. If our players are executing basic skills poorly then they are not giving the gameplan any chance to work.

Longmire's analysis regarding uncontested possessions was spot on. Our work rate was atrocious and GWS were too often given a paddock to play in. This was compounded by our younger, inexperienced players who lack two-way defensive discipline and then topped off by 30 less rotations.

 

[The King!]

Same responses every pre season, we're crap, can't hit a target etc. Relax, well be fine.

Spot on, just training loads, bet Horse still has them in a big training load

 

[hairy biker]

If our players are executing basic skills poorly then they are not giving the gameplan any chance to work.

I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

An example from the game v GWS.
Mitchell handskills are clearly better than his footskills.
He had 17 kicks against 4 handballs.
Last week v Port he had 10 kicks v 22 handballs.
Last season he averaged 11 kicks v 16 handballs.

Do you honestly think of his own volition he suddenly changed his game?
Or on the off chance that he did that the coaches would not have pulled him up and told him to focus on what he does better?
As far as I'm concerned it was a coaching decision, for some baffling reason, to make Mitchell kick rather than handball.
A 'gameplan' that clearly does not benefit the player or the team.

Cunningham and Lloyd are potentially dangerous outside weapons.
Criticised for their output v GWS, but what opportunity did they have?
When positioned on the wings the ball was either sailing over their heads or never reached them from congestion.
The ball pumped aimlessly forward from clearances rather than fed outside to utilise their abilities.
We had players running to space outside the contest, but the ball never reached them.
The 'gameplan' seemed to me to be pump the ball forward at all cost, whether from the backline or clearances. Yet the GWS set up exactly for that scenario and killed us on the turnover.

We clearly do not have the league's most highly skilled players, but a gameplan exploits what players can do best.
In 2012 congesting the ball, keeping spare players behind the ball, hitting teams on the break, worked because we had individuals to play that game (eg Malceski/Jetta/a mobile forward line).

I'd suggest in 2015 basics such as run, carry, overlap, honour the outside player (ours & theirs), keep a permanent forward line, would be more successful than some sort of slingshot twilight zone that we seem to be trapped in.

 

[Glenn_]

On the subject of Mitchell, isn't it better if he works on his kicking game in meaningless pre season games instead of just relying on what he does well?

 

[kneecapper]

I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

An example from the game v GWS.
Mitchell handskills are clearly better than his footskills.
He had 17 kicks against 4 handballs.
Last week v Port he had 10 kicks v 22 handballs.
Last season he averaged 11 kicks v 16 handballs.

Do you honestly think of his own volition he suddenly changed his game?
Or on the off chance that he did that the coaches would not have pulled him up and told him to focus on what he does better?
As far as I'm concerned it was a coaching decision, for some baffling reason, to make Mitchell kick rather than handball.
A 'gameplan' that clearly does not benefit the player or the team.

Cunningham and Lloyd are potentially dangerous outside weapons.
Criticised for their output v GWS, but what opportunity did they have?
When positioned on the wings the ball was either sailing over their heads or never reached them from congestion.
The ball pumped aimlessly forward from clearances rather than fed outside to utilise their abilities.
We had players running to space outside the contest, but the ball never reached them.
The 'gameplan' seemed to me to be pump the ball forward at all cost, whether from the backline or clearances. Yet the GWS set up exactly for that scenario and killed us on the turnover.

We clearly do not have the league's most highly skilled players, but a gameplan exploits what players can do best.
In 2012 congesting the ball, keeping spare players behind the ball, hitting teams on the break, worked because we had individuals to play that game (eg Malceski/Jetta/a mobile forward line).

I'd suggest in 2015 basics such as run, carry, overlap, honour the outside player (ours & theirs), keep a permanent forward line, would be more successful than some sort of slingshot twilight zone that we seem to be trapped in.

No, I absolutely don't think Mitchell's kick to handball ratio was a coaching decision. It was a function of poor work rate, undisciplined midfield structure and overlap run from his teammates which caused him to resort to a panicked kick forward.

Regardless, I challenge any coach, even Clarkson, to execute any sort of successful game plan when your players are executing fundamental skills at 42% efficiency in attack and then allowing the opposition plentiful uncontested possessions in defence. That sort of slop is 100% on the players and to suggest the coach would be fine with that or even recommend it is ludicrous.

 

[Neverwas]

No, I absolutely don't think Mitchell's kick to handball ratio was a coaching decision. It was a function of poor work rate, undisciplined midfield structure and overlap run from his teammates which caused him to resort to a panicked kick forward.

Regardless, I challenge any coach, even Clarkson, to execute any sort of successful game plan when your players are executing fundamental skills at 42% efficiency in attack and then allowing the opposition plentiful uncontested possessions in defence. That sort of slop is 100% on the players and to suggest the coach would be fine with that or even recommend it is ludicrous.

Re watching the replay it seemed that some of the brainless kicking and poor skill execution were almost inexplicable .

On reflection the only answers I can come up with are:
training load,
maybe they didn't take their NoDoze before the game,
the reduced interchange rate,
the coaches experimenting with new tactics.
or a combination of the above

The absolute refusal of the umpires to give free kicks to Swans players in the first half (as we all notice with Razor, you can tell at the first bounce what is going to happen) even when they are getting pushed in the back and tackled head high when GWS were getting frees for imaginary infringements, must have rattled the players as well.

Round 1 will tell.

After watching the replay I have to agree the umpires robbed us
They really didn't let us play our normal pricise execution skill way
They just made us bomb away to our numbered contest and happy handball to but others under more pressure

Sent from my SM-T805Y using Tapatalk

 

[Punts]

No, I absolutely don't think Mitchell's kick to handball ratio was a coaching decision. It was a function of poor work rate, undisciplined midfield structure and overlap run from his teammates which caused him to resort to a panicked kick forward.

Regardless, I challenge any coach, even Clarkson, to execute any sort of successful game plan when your players are executing fundamental skills at 42% efficiency in attack and then allowing the opposition plentiful uncontested possessions in defence. That sort of slop is 100% on the players and to suggest the coach would be fine with that or even recommend it is ludicrous.

But shouldnt horse be saying ok this pre season is just skills skills skills as head coach
He also has a day in who we draft so maybe should have looked at some with betters skills
Our skills and lack of forwRd structure has been under horses nose for a while now

 

[Punts]

I hate stuffing with the game but I hope zones come In
Might make him play a forward line that stays in the 50

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

How many marks we take in50 ?

2 they took 10

 

[RUNVS]

2 they took 10

Sums it up really.

 

[kneecapper]

But shouldnt horse be saying ok this pre season is just skills skills skills as head couch
He also has a day in who we draft so maybe should have looked at some with betters skills
Our skills and lack of forwRd structure has been under horses nose for a while now

I pretty much agree with your analysis about how we recruited but I think it's a little silly to say our players have don't have adequate skills and then demand in the next breath that we adopt a free flowing brand of footy. Drills can only develop a player so far and you also normally have to sacrifice something else in the process - gut running fitness, defensive pressure, structures around stoppages and two-way running.

We've consistently had one of the best defensive records in the league and it's not because we have a bunch of superstars back there. It's because our midfield has the fitness and discipline to get back there to help and that takes extensive training to develop. I guess I'm asking is, what are you happy to sacrifice to get the gameplan you want and do we have the right players to do it?

 

[Punts]

I pretty much agree with your analysis about how we recruited but I think it's a little silly to say our players have don't have adequate skills and then demand in the next breath that we adopt a free flowing brand of footy. Drills can only develop a player so far and you also normally have to sacrifice something else in the process - gut running fitness, defensive pressure, structures around stoppages and two-way running.

We've consistently had one of the best defensive records in the league and it's not because we have a bunch of superstars back there. It's because our midfield has the fitness and discipline to get back there to help and that takes extensive training to develop. I guess I'm asking is, what are you happy to sacrifice to get the gameplan you want and do we have the right players to do it?

If we look at the Hawks , WCE etc they back there defenders to win the one on one contest and don't have to sacrafise putting players behind the ball which then allows a normal structure forward of the ball
We have always pushed to many players behind the ball which then leads to the forwards pushing to far up and having no one inside 50
We all see it time and time again , out numbered contests going to Tippett , buddy etc when playing deep or we get the ball on the rebound from HB look up and no one to kick to
I would just leave the forwards inside the 5o and back mids head to head along with the backs and don't push the extra man to the contest
Longmire is a flag coach and I'm a no body but I would like to see just a normal school yard game plan , leave forwards on the 50 and one on one rest of field

 

[The King!]

Id just like to see some sign there is a different gameplan which we have not seen happen since 2012 really.

Some selection consistency too, too many blokes gifted games while others are whipping boys

And skills are important, too many survive despite consistentlu butchering it and making poor decisions, they either cant play or the gameplan sucks, id rather fall down the ladder and blood people with talent and promise than tread water

 

[The King!]

But shouldnt horse be saying ok this pre season is just skills skills skills as head coach
He also has a day in who we draft so maybe should have looked at some with betters skills
Our skills and lack of forwRd structure has been under horses nose for a while now

Longmire has had input into the list and side for over a decade now, not many coaches have had as much chance to shape their list and are still in the job, how they perform is on him and they played outdated , contrived rubbish footy last year

 

[The King!]

Don't mind seeing Buddy up the ground at times taking on opponents, he's a big guy who can impose himself on the contest. Just need players forward of the ball. I really don't know why they all get sucked into the contest.

Buddy will be intersting this year

Nab for him at this stage is to build some fitness hopefully, so presume will be right to go when the time comes

 

[The King!]

This is the team that beat Geelong in 2014 by 110 points

B: Dane Rampe, Ted Richards, Nick Smith
HB: Jeremy Laidler, Heath Grundy, Rhyce Shaw
C: Nick Malceski, Josh Kennedy, Kieren Jack
HF: Adam Goodes, Lance Franklin, Jarrad McVeigh
F: Ben McGlynn, Kurt Tippett, Harry Cunningham
FOLL: Tom Derickx, Dan Hannebery, Luke Parker
I/C: Craig Bird, Lewis Jetta, Jake Lloyd, Sam Reid


Highlighted are the players still on our list.

I had never every seen a more perfect performance from the Swans, we demolished Geelong that day, with amazing disposal efficiency, workrate and the game plan was spot on. 17 of our 22 that day are still on our list, that means that those players are capable of that performance if they have the right gameplan and mindset.

Objectively looking at each line though there are a few issues with the players still there

Richards is cooked, if others had come on i suspect he would be retired has been a warrior but at best should be 3rd tall, teams isolated him last year at times, still better than XR though

Grundy- is what 30 this year? Thats a worry given the battering he has taken but still great last year so its only the age that concerns me thus far nothing tangible yet

Jack- i think KJ has been in decline since 2012 each year and gone backwards- contract year if he doesnt peform i wouldnt throw much cash at him because midfield is one area we do have depth

Franklin- he is buddy and all but after the end of last year and given he has seven years to go and the money he is a massive concern because to make the deal worth it these have to be his SUPERSTAR top 5 player in the comp years IMO

Mcveigh- age is a concern, what more can he give? This year hope he still performs at the same level, injury a worry

Mcglynn- he has nothing left at all IMO his courage made up for skills, if his body is falling apart he is useless

cunningham- im not sure he can get much better he is a bit blergh, big year for him

Derrickx jesus the fact he is still on the list is a joke

Reid- let me know which year he stops being a young promising player and its time to actually peform


So yeah a lot still there but are they capable still?

Who has improvement left or has improved since then? Not many

 

[Punts]

Objectively looking at each line though there are a few issues with the players still there

Richards is cooked, if others had come on i suspect he would be retired has been a warrior but at best should be 3rd tall, teams isolated him last year at times, still better than XR though

Grundy- is what 30 this year? Thats a worry given the battering he has taken but still great last year so its only the age that concerns me thus far nothing tangible yet

Jack- i think KJ has been in decline since 2012 each year and gone backwards- contract year if he doesnt peform i wouldnt throw much cash at him because midfield is one area we do have depth

Franklin- he is buddy and all but after the end of last year and given he has seven years to go and the money he is a massive concern because to make the deal worth it these have to be his SUPERSTAR top 5 player in the comp years IMO

Mcveigh- age is a concern, what more can he give? This year hope he still performs at the same level, injury a worry

Mcglynn- he has nothing left at all IMO his courage made up for skills, if his body is falling apart he is useless

cunningham- im not sure he can get much better he is a bit blergh, big year for him

Derrickx jesus the fact he is still on the list is a joke

Reid- let me know which year he stops being a young promising player and its time to actually peform


So yeah a lot still there but are they capable still?

Who has improvement left or has improved since then? Not many

Reid needs to pull his finger out

 

[The King!]

Reid needs to pull his finger out

Would probably miss

 

[garyrohan8]

Reid needs to pull his finger out

if they go with talia for the 2nd tall spot then we can't carry richards and laidler in the same team imo.

grundy shows no sign of decline.

although kj has pace and when do not have depth in pace in the midfield.

agree re buddy.

mcveighs skills will buy him some time.

i never thought mglynns disposal was that bad. just the odd clanger.

we need cunninghams pace but he needs to improve his contested stuff.

i though reid was great last year except for his goal kicking accuracy.

 

[The King!]

Reid was great then so was Jesse White at the pies

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

To anyone who thinks we werent trying or it didn't mean anything should rewatch Longmire address in the rooms at HT.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Objectively looking at each line though there are a few issues with the players still there

Richards is cooked, if others had come on i suspect he would be retired has been a warrior but at best should be 3rd tall, teams isolated him last year at times, still better than XR though

Grundy- is what 30 this year? Thats a worry given the battering he has taken but still great last year so its only the age that concerns me thus far nothing tangible yet

Jack- i think KJ has been in decline since 2012 each year and gone backwards- contract year if he doesnt peform i wouldnt throw much cash at him because midfield is one area we do have depth

Franklin- he is buddy and all but after the end of last year and given he has seven years to go and the money he is a massive concern because to make the deal worth it these have to be his SUPERSTAR top 5 player in the comp years IMO

Mcveigh- age is a concern, what more can he give? This year hope he still performs at the same level, injury a worry

Mcglynn- he has nothing left at all IMO his courage made up for skills, if his body is falling apart he is useless

cunningham- im not sure he can get much better he is a bit blergh, big year for him

Derrickx jesus the fact he is still on the list is a joke

Reid- let me know which year he stops being a young promising player and its time to actually peform


So yeah a lot still there but are they capable still?

Who has improvement left or has improved since then? Not many

Good summary but i tend to think whats wrong with us is our second tier of players the ones a rug below our best.

Cunningham, Lloyd, Rohan, Reid, Towers, Robinson, Jones, B.Jack, Nankervis, Derickx.

All been on the list now for several seasons and seem to have hit their limit and just dont give us enough.