Names on Jerseys

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

My GF watches games with me. Both at the ground and on TV. She really only follows the game because I do. She barely knows any of our players, let alone any other teams players. And never once have I heard her say 'You know, i'd enjoy and understand the game a whole lot more if the players had names on their jumpers'.

what a great story.

I have watched plenty of footy with people who I wouldn't even call casual fans. And at no stage have they mentioned anything about names on the back being something that would help them understand or enjoy the game more.

i've had different experiences. i'd say they probably held their tongue in case you blasted them for being "dullards" or "blow ins".

Thanks for the laugh though. Alienating fans lol.

when a measure, without any real negative effect, is proposed that could help newcomers or casual fans and it is opposed because these people aren't "real fans", the world "alienate" is quite applicable.

I feel for all those thousands of people turning their backs on the game because we don't use players names. It's a disgrace

who said that? it simply helps them with identification.

dunno what you''re getting so worked up about...

I just wish people supporting this would give away trying to mount a creditable argument

credible argument has been provided.
credible opposing argument has not.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

what a great story.

i've had different experiences. i'd say they probably held their tongue in case you blasted them for being "dullards" or "blow ins".

when a measure, without any real negative effect, is proposed that could help newcomers or casual fans and it is opposed because these people aren't "real fans", the world "alienate" is quite applicable.

who said that? it simply helps them with identification.

dunno what you''re getting so worked up about...

credible argument has been provided.
credible opposing argument has not.

I would strongly suggest otherwise.

If I was purely against it on the basis of 'tradition' you'd be right. But I have not done that once.

There is no evidence whatsoever to show that the popularity of the game would be improved in any way shape or form by putting names on the back.

If you, or anyone else can show me something that shows i'm incorrect, by all means do so.

 

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

If I was purely against it on the basis of 'tradition' you'd be right. But I have not done that once.

no, you've gone with:

* the "it's a team sport, not an individual sport" non-argument, and
* anecdotal "my gf is a casual fan and she never said they should have names on the jumpers" non-argument

There is no evidence whatsoever to show that the popularity of the game would be improved in any way shape or form by putting names on the back.

dunno what you're talking about.
my argument is that it simply makes individual players easier to identify. this helps fans who do not have the knowledge of each player/team/number combination.

common sense; the best evidence.

your opposing argument was along the lines of "if they are too stupid not to know each player/team/number combination, **** them!"

as i said, credible opposing argument has not been provided.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: Names in Jerseys

dunno what you're talking about.
my argument is that it simply makes individual players easier to identify. this helps fans who do not have the knowledge of each player/team/number combination.

common sense; the best evidence.

your opposing argument was along the lines of "if they are too stupid not to know each player/team/number combination, **** them!"

as i said, credible opposing argument has not been provided.

Of course, that would only help the casual fan if they've actually heard of the player in the first place. Otherwise, how is 'SMITH' any different to 'Number 10'?

Granted, it might help Supercoach/Dreamteam supporters...

 

[THRILLHO]

Re: Names in Jerseys

Lol at the people arguing names on guernseys looks tacky. What about that big ****-off sponsorship below the number?

NBA and NFL guernseys are far more classy than AFL guernseys. Would definitely help with marketing as well as people are more likely to buy a guernsey if they can have a name and a number on it. It's also a good way to capture a guernsey in a particular time period. Imagine having the number 18 for North. Most people would recognise it as Carey, but you could also say it was for Josh Smith or Shaun Atley. Having the name individualises it some more.

 

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

Of course, that would only help the casual fan if they've actually heard of the player in the first place. Otherwise, how is 'SMITH' any different to 'Number 10'?

SMITH is a more direct form of identification.

 

[84859300]

Re: Names in Jerseys

To get the names to sit over the numbers, some clubs would have to lose the abbreviations they currently have placed there at the moment. SMFC, FFC and a ring of stars would have to move or be deleted for 'JUDD' or 'ABLETT'.

If I'm in row ZZ at the top of the stand, the name on the jumper will not 'enhance my viewing pleasure' no matter how much I've paid for my ticket.

On a side note; I still can't work out with the speed of the game today, why they don't have the smaller numbers on the front of the jumpers WAFL style for the sake of assisting the umpires. Though I must admit they do pretty well with names and nicknames in the heat of the battle.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

no, you've gone with:

* the "it's a team sport, not an individual sport" non-argument, and
* anecdotal "my gf is a casual fan and she never said they should have names on the jumpers" non-argument

dunno what you're talking about.
my argument is that it simply makes individual players easier to identify. this helps fans who do not have the knowledge of each player/team/number combination.

common sense; the best evidence.

your opposing argument was along the lines of "if they are too stupid not to know each player/team/number combination, **** them!"

as i said, credible opposing argument has not been provided.

So you keep saying, and patting yourself on the back for it.

If a person cannot identify a player by 1. sight, 2. a very large number on their backs, and 3. (if they are watching it on TV) the commentators continually referring to X player, I fail to see how adding a name that will, for the most part, not be visible, is going to help a whole lot more. If you want to know who a player is badly enough, there is already plenty of info there to identify them.

You are advocating change because you (and others) are saying that more people will follow the game with more interest if players had names on their jumpers, when there is no evidence to suggest this is the case at all. The example of my GF was to point out that she is one of these casual supporters you refer to and she's never mentioned it. I also added afterward that of the dozens of supporters of this nature that i've watched footy with have never mentioned it either.

I've been to over 500 games of league football in my lifetime, and never once have I heard a fan muttering 'Geez, I don't know who player x for Team x is, but geez, if he had his name on the back I would'.

If you don't agree that the individual v team argument is not a valid one that's your prerogative. That alone doesn't mean you are correct in thinking that, especially when there is plenty of evidence to suggest it does have an effect on the way people watch and follow sports.

You only have to have a look around on the Soccer and US sports boards to see that.

Now i'm just going to give myself a pat on the back because I disagree with everything you've said

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

Lol at the people arguing names on guernseys looks tacky. What about that big ****-off sponsorship below the number?

NBA and NFL guernseys are far more classy than AFL guernseys. Would definitely help with marketing as well as people are more likely to buy a guernsey if they can have a name and a number on it. It's also a good way to capture a guernsey in a particular time period. Imagine having the number 18 for North. Most people would recognise it as Carey, but you could also say it was for Josh Smith or Shaun Atley. Having the name individualises it some more.

Thanks for summing up the essence of the 'for' argument without resorting to the 'helps identification' furphy.

 

[Clay Davis]

Re: Names in Jerseys

No need for the last comment but its wasn't until the popularization of NFL and NBA attire did we really start hearing about football jersey in Victoria at least.

So ask a question before being a smart arse

Guernsey is a style of jumper - long sleeved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernsey_(clothing)

Jersey is a similar style of jumper.

http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/res/aus_words/aewords/aewords_cg.php#g

 

[McOrist]

Re: Names in Jerseys

no, you've gone with:

* the "it's a team sport, not an individual sport" non-argument, and
* anecdotal "my gf is a casual fan and she never said they should have names on the jumpers" non-argument

dunno what you're talking about.
my argument is that it simply makes individual players easier to identify. this helps fans who do not have the knowledge of each player/team/number combination.

common sense; the best evidence.

your opposing argument was along the lines of "if they are too stupid not to know each player/team/number combination, **** them!"

as i said, credible opposing argument has not been provided.

It makes identification bloody harder!

Watching the game live at the ground, there's no way you could read the names on the back of the jumpers.

"Big screen?"

Footy fan: "Did you see that great goal?"
Footy Newbie: "No ...I was too busy trying to read the players' names up on the big screen. Why didn't we stay home and watch it on TV? I'm missing 'Better Homes and Gardens' for this??"

 

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

So you keep saying, and patting yourself on the back for it.

If a person cannot identify a player by 1. sight, 2. a very large number on their backs, and 3. (if they are watching it on TV) the commentators continually referring to X player, I fail to see how adding a name that will, for the most part, not be visible, is going to help a whole lot more. If you want to know who a player is badly enough, there is already plenty of info there to identify them.

in each case, with a name on the back, they can make easier identification correlations.

You are advocating change because you (and others) are saying that more people will follow the game with more interest if players had names on their jumpers, when there is no evidence to suggest this is the case at all.

it will make identification of players easier for newcomers and casual fans. if this results in more people following the game, so be it.

If you don't agree that the individual v team argument is not a valid one that's your prerogative. That alone doesn't mean you are correct in thinking that, especially when there is plenty of evidence to suggest it does have an effect on the way people watch and follow sports.

and so?

many people prefer to follow individuals as opposed to teams. is that not simply their prerogative as well?

 

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

It makes identification bloody harder!

Watching the game live at the ground, there's no way you could read the names on the back of the jumpers.

depends where your sitting but i guess
i agree, it wouldn't be easy to see at all parts of the ground.

"Big screen?"

Footy fan: "Did you see that great goal?"
Footy Newbie: "No ...I was too busy trying to read the players' names up on the big screen. Why didn't we stay home and watch it on TV? I'm missing 'Better Homes and Gardens' for this??"

never used the big screen at a match where your vision is poor/interrupted?

nb. wouldn't be difficult to see the name on the big screen.

 

[Clay Davis]

Re: Names in Jerseys

Aesthetics and superiority over n00bs is why I prefer no names on guernseys.

 

[Lazix]

Re: Names in Jerseys

what a great story.

i've had different experiences. i'd say they probably held their tongue in case you blasted them for being "dullards" or "blow ins".

when a measure, without any real negative effect, is proposed that could help newcomers or casual fans and it is opposed because these people aren't "real fans", the world "alienate" is quite applicable.

Holy crap I nearly rolled my eyes out of their sockets when I read that. First, there are negative effects - hence the 7 pages of discussion. Second, choose your words better. Casuals are not being "alienated" because of a lack of names on jumpers please . Argue they are not being catered to, but "alienated" is a silly exaggeration.

in each case, with a name on the back, they can make easier identification correlations.

I consider myself a casual NBA fan, I don't know many of the names, but the first connection I make with a player is mentally assigning his number to his name. The name on the back of jerseys I'm completely oblivious to because numbers are a better visual aid.

When does anyone honestly read the names? When one blur of letters is larger then another blur of letters maybe then they're good for distinguishing 2 players. In any case you'd be a fool for not trying to learn the player's number if you have any interest casual or not.

 

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

Holy crap I nearly rolled my eyes out of their sockets when I read that. First, there are negative effects - hence the 7 pages of discussion. Second, choose your words better. Casuals are not being "alienated" because of a lack of names on jumpers please . Argue they are not being catered to, but "alienated" is a silly exaggeration.

1. I said no "real" negative effects. there are plenty of negative effects supported by specious non-arguments as seen itt.

2. alienated fits, but perhaps you have a more extreme definition of the term in your head, which is why you think it is a "silly exaggeration". if your main opposition to my posts is a semantic one, i think i'm traveling ok.

I consider myself a casual NBA fan, I don't know many of the names, but the first connection I make with a player is mentally assigning his number to his name.

and the name is right there above the number, innit? how helpful.

 

[timskul]

Re: Names in Jerseys

Granted, it might help Supercoach/Dreamteam supporters...

Hey don't bag the Dreamteam supporters. I knew 29/30 of my players by face -last year, Dennis-Lane the only exception i thought he was white. If anything, DT Helps me with identification of players from other teams

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

in each case, with a name on the back, they can make easier identification correlations.

it will make identification of players easier for newcomers and casual fans. if this results in more people following the game, so be it.

and so?

many people prefer to follow individuals as opposed to teams. is that not simply their prerogative as well?

You're really not addressing the points here.

Names are not easy to see at the best of times during the action, either at the ground, or on the telly. Many clubs jumper/shirt/uniform/jersey/guernsey designs are also not conducive to see the already hard to see name.

Try watching the Melbourne Heart for example. It doesn't matter where you are, unless you or the camera is a matter of metres away, you can't see the players names. Help indeed.

If you're going to put a name on there for people with a passing interest, and they say 'Who's that guy?', do they wait for a break in play so the camera can pan in on a player and show his name? I'm sure if they are interested enough to wait that long, they could identify by number, commentator or hell, even a mate they are watching the game with before they catch a players name plate.

So I think it's horse shit that it makes it easier for newcomers. And even more horse shit that it makes them more likely to become more interested in the game. Absolute rubbish. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support you there.

And yes, it is a persons prerogative to follow a player and not a team. Whether it's a good thing or not is a debate for a whole other thread. I think what I've said during my posts on this matter show where I stand on that issue.

 

[Lazix]

Re: Names in Jerseys

and the name is right there above the number, innit? how helpful.

No that's the damn point, I just said I was oblivious and I doubt if anyone actually reads...

You know what... never mind.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

With all that buying you probably figured out that getting the number on the back is an optional extra that you pay for (in fact you pay more for 2 digits) - and getting the name on the back would be optional too.

You can have a blank backed jumper, the number or the number and the name.

True, but then I don't spend hundreds of dollars on an authentic jersey to not have it look as authentic as possible.

I said earlier, I like numbers on jumpers. If I buy a new Geelong jumper I want a number on it.

If they start putting names on jerseys I wouldn't be doing that, but then my 'authentic' jumper wouldn't look anywhere near as authentic.

It was like when I went to the Everton v Heart game earlier in the year, and the Toffees wore there jerseys with numbers only. It didn't look right without a name on it. That's not to say I didn't like the look, but then if I did that, people would ask me 'why only a number and not a name?' and that would get quite bloody annoying after awhile.

 

[Suspense]

Re: Names in Jerseys

You're really not addressing the points here.

Names are not easy to see at the best of times during the action, either at the ground, or on the telly.

depends where you are sitting. depending on where the cam is, on tv it would be quite clear. im not claiming it would be 100% visible all of the time. but, when visible, it would provide better identification for those who cannot identify with just numbers/faces.

questions of visibility aside, im still yet to hear a valid opposing argument that isn't simply a matter of personal preferences.

Many clubs jumper/shirt/uniform/jersey/guernsey designs are also not conducive to see the already hard to see name.

Try watching the Melbourne Heart for example. It doesn't matter where you are, unless you or the camera is a matter of metres away, you can't see the players names. Help indeed.

home strip, yes; away strip is quite clear though.

If you're going to put a name on there for people with a passing interest, and they say 'Who's that guy?', do they wait for a break in play so the camera can pan in on a player and show his name? I'm sure if they are interested enough to wait that long, they could identify by number, commentator or hell, even a mate they are watching the game with before they catch a players name plate.

they may catch the name in play, they may have to wait til the camera gets closer. the fact is that having the name as opposed to simply not having the name provides for a more direct form of identification.

So I think it's horse shit that it makes it easier for newcomers.

that's your prerogative, but you are wrong.

 

[Mancey]

Re: Names in Jerseys

If they got surnames on the back of shirts in First Class TEST MATCH CRICKET then why not have it in AFL

lolwut

Well to be fair, every Test match is a first class match

True, but test match cricketers certainly don't have names on their backs

Don't really see the need for it really. It's not like you'd be able to see the names watching live anyway unless they were massive. Footy is usually telecast from a pretty wide angle too, so probs would be indiscernible on TV for most of the time as well.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

depends where you are sitting. depending on where the cam is, on tv it would be quite clear. im not claiming it would be 100% visible all of the time. but, when visible, it would provide better identification for those who cannot identify with just numbers/faces.

questions of visibility aside, im still yet to hear a valid opposing argument that isn't simply a matter of personal preferences.

home strip, yes; away strip is quite clear though.

they may catch the name in play, they may have to wait til the camera gets closer. the fact is that having the name as opposed to simply not having the name provides for a more direct form of identification.

that's your prerogative, but you are wrong.

I'm yet to see you prove that. I'm sure you think you have though.

And just to turn it around.....im still yet to hear a valid opposing argument that isn't simply a matter of personal preferences.

You've also managed to endorse that yes, there are visibility issues, so perhaps this 'easier identification' you keep taking about isn't quite as easy. Certainly not as easy as a big number on the back, and in some instances - the front, the shorts, or the shoulders.

In my experience, the only time i've needed to use a name to identify a player is in the NFL, where apart from the often transient nature of American sport, the players wear helmets so you can't get a clear visual on their heads. I don't get to watch much of the other teams apart from the Dolphins except when we play them, so the Pats could have some bloke wearing a certain number the first time we play them in a season, and a totally different bloke wearing the number the next. And even then, it's only guys on the offensive or defensive lines that I may make use of the name. And even then, very very rarely.

When I can clearly see the players head, as in basketball, I don't have the problem at all.

 

[Rack Watts]

Re: Names in Jerseys

I could throw cheap insults like you pal, but I don't need to.

You're calling me a sheep, but how about this?

I don't need names on the backs of jumpers to be able to tell who's who. But gopower is basically suggesting its a good idea because most people are too dumb and/or disinterested to work out who a player is without them.

I'd suggest if people are too dumb or disinterested that it's not going to matter what you put on the jumper.

It just makes me laff this idea that suddenly because names are on the backs of jumpers a bunch of dullards are suddenly going to become real fans.

The other thing I would point out is that most of the major international sports that have names on the back are either slow moving or have several long breaks during play or both. There are plenty of opportunities for TV close ups, or to see players standing around like stale bottles of piss if you're at the game. Plenty of chances to catch names on the back if you so desire.

HAHA! Real fans, like us Bigfooty nerds? I had family come down from England and the first thing they said is they were disappointed by the lack there of names on the guernseys. It just makes it far more personal and I think the players would love being handed a guernsey with their own name when they start their first AFL game?

You're just that typical BF "Traditionalist" that wants nothing changed even if all outcomes are positive.

HOW DARE THE GAME EVOLVE, etc.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Names in Jerseys

HAHA! Real fans, like us Bigfooty nerds? I had family come down from England and the first thing they said is they were disappointed by the lack there of names on the guernseys. It just makes it far more personal and I think the players would love being handed a guernsey with their own name when they start their first AFL game?

You're just that typical BF "Traditionalist" that wants nothing changed even if all outcomes are positive.

HOW DARE THE GAME EVOLVE, etc.

I wonder why? Soccer fans at all?

If you can point out anywhere where i've mentioned not changing because of tradition, that'd be great.

And there is evolution, and there is change for changes sake, and copying other sports to become more like them, rather than maintaining some of our own unique flavor.

To make this change isn't enhancing anything enough to justify making it, just as the fact we aren't doing it now isn't taking anything away.

To be honest, I don't know why i'm even getting into this argument. I'm sure it will happen eventually, and there's not a damn thing I, or others that think it's quite ok as it is, can do about it.

I suppose i'm just old, stubborn and living in the past. You'd think i'd have learned by now that new is always better than old, or the status quo