Nathan Buckley

Remove this Banner Ad

PP34

Finals MVP
Oct 8, 2009
28,437
24,089
AFL Club
Carlton
The team he took over wasn't that good it was a game plan that was good until it was figured out straight after 2010. It took most teams a couple of years but the top ones had it dissected by the end of 2011.
The team is mid tier rebuilding take out Fasolo, Elliott and Moore from the forwardine and no Swanny we lose to mid tier teams by 2 goals. No issues here/
In 2011 you made a grand final and were just absolutely horrific when it matted against Geelong. Would hardly believe that a host of clubs had dissected, maybe Hawthorn and Geelong obviously, but the Hawks were on the way to huge success.
In 2010 yes. As he said, in 2011 things changed. The game plan was figured out by team after team.

Proof in the pudding is how abysmal that game plan was when Mick came to Carlton. Sure we didn't have the cattle but so many of those players look far better under Bolton's game plan.

Predicting a dynasty when everything worked great in 2010 does not make a lie out of saying the game plan failednin 2011. These things evolve fast.
It's a bit ridiculous to act like Mick's gameplan was pretty much the only reason they were successful. That ignores the fact that they had three jets in the middle in Thomas, Swan and Pendlebury along with a developing Beams and Sidebottom who has only gotten better as a player since 2011. Cloke was a gun up forward, and down back they had talent plus experience, something they're completely devoid of now. They certainly weren't the 2010 Saints or 2013 Dockers who had some genuinely ordinary talent in their sides. Clearly Mick had found something in the group and used it to his advantage. Buckley hasn't done that, so I think it's fair to argue that he might have ruined Collingwood from being far more successful with that side.

The whole argument around Buckley is that he was too focused on building his own team, rather than building on Mick's list and that it has backfired. It certainly has merit in my view. Back in 2012/13 when it began, we thought by now they'd have some young guns to complement the aging ones and keep them up the top of the ladder. It hasn't happened.

As for Carlton, that's merely an example of a coach trying to work miracles. That list wasn't his own and by the time he started getting a list better accustomed to what he wanted, the results weren't there and time was ticking.
 

Big Fresh

Premiership Player
Aug 6, 2013
3,222
2,615
AFL Club
Essendon
Collingwoods 2010 GF victory was all down to the press, 2011 Geelong had it figured out by the first game they won by a kick and should have won by 10 goals if not for bad kicking. We were not even close to being on Geelongs level in 2011 and the Hawks should have knocked us out in the PF.

By 2012 Hawthorn was waltzing through the press and were flogging us as well but our players were comprised of those who were not skillful enough outside of a few. Just those that fit in perfectly at a perfect time for a gameplan to work it's magic.
In 2010 yes. As he said, in 2011 things changed. The game plan was figured out by team after team.

Proof in the pudding is how abysmal that game plan was when Mick came to Carlton. Sure we didn't have the cattle but so many of those players look far better under Bolton's game plan.

Predicting a dynasty when everything worked great in 2010 does not make a lie out of saying the game plan failednin 2011. These things evolve fast.
Collingwood only lost two games in the 2011 home and away season and were only down by a goal at three quarter time in the grand final. Selling them way short.
 

PP34

Finals MVP
Oct 8, 2009
28,437
24,089
AFL Club
Carlton
Collingwood 2011 annihilated team after team, it was scary, wheels started to fall off about 5 rounds from the end, coincidentally when the premiership coach was told was told he'd still have to walk.

And when you see the way the players got around Hardwick tonight after the game you can understand why. players play for their coach,devastating to be told he's getting it in the neck for no good reason.
Yep. The revisionism from footy fans relating to 2011 Collingwood is ridiculous. 2010 I thought was a one off fluke in terms of success, but 2011 to me showed that they clearly had something special. They won 14 straight games heading into the last round, so certainly weren't falling off. Round 24 Geelong thumped them, but I remember many thinking that was clearly just a bit of a last round fluke. They survived an incredibly ferocious Hawthorn outfit in the prelim, and just looked done by halftime of the Grannie.

The ages of their best players certainly wasn't a concern, and guys like Beams, Sidebottom etc were on an upwards trend.

Buckley thought he was smart and a step ahead by going for a more younger and riskier approach, and instead has been left with a mess of a list.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Trip3101

Senior List
Jul 18, 2016
265
680
AFL Club
St Kilda
I really like him and I hope he wins a premiership, he deserves it.

What I don't understand is why he had to coach Collingwood. There's 17 other teams ffs, coaching any of them would have been so much less pressure and a more normal trajectory, EG, taking over a bottom team and getting rid of all the players he didn't want, recruiting everyone he wanted and build the team himself from the ground up. Taking over Collingwood after 2 grand finals was never going to work.
 

Upgrayedd

A Vote for Clive is a Vote for Justice
Aug 11, 2006
31,932
25,422
Perth
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Timberwolves, Crystal Palace
Not a bad coach imo. However been crueled by injuries not over the park but just at the flanks. Collingwood struggled to clear the ball. Had to move pendles back because all of.collingwoods best up and comming users were just crueled.by injury. Suddenly ball is just being blazed into the forwardline to alleviate the problem they had first few games of disposing cleanly outnof defense. Elliot injured. Cloke shot. Moore 3 years away=what can you do? Simply the cattle on the park would be competing for the same spot. Some guys are playing roles they cannot do.

It might be worth new blood. Not always the coaches fault but he cant take a trick. Not nathans fault

However i wouldnt be stunned if next year they come back anywhere from 5th-8th. I dont think they are in that position where its close to rebuilding. Its just last year young team fell off a cliff. This year injuries robbed them of any chance
 
Nov 8, 2000
80,487
75,239
Head in the clouds
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Nottingham Forest
In 2011 you made a grand final and were just absolutely horrific when it matted against Geelong. Would hardly believe that a host of clubs had dissected, maybe Hawthorn and Geelong obviously, but the Hawks were on the way to huge success.

It's a bit ridiculous to act like Mick's gameplan was pretty much the only reason they were successful. That ignores the fact that they had three jets in the middle in Thomas, Swan and Pendlebury along with a developing Beams and Sidebottom who has only gotten better as a player since 2011. Cloke was a gun up forward, and down back they had talent plus experience, something they're completely devoid of now. They certainly weren't the 2010 Saints or 2013 Dockers who had some genuinely ordinary talent in their sides. Clearly Mick had found something in the group and used it to his advantage. Buckley hasn't done that, so I think it's fair to argue that he might have ruined Collingwood from being far more successful with that side.

The whole argument around Buckley is that he was too focused on building his own team, rather than building on Mick's list and that it has backfired. It certainly has merit in my view. Back in 2012/13 when it began, we thought by now they'd have some young guns to complement the aging ones and keep them up the top of the ladder. It hasn't happened.

As for Carlton, that's merely an example of a coach trying to work miracles. That list wasn't his own and by the time he started getting a list better accustomed to what he wanted, the results weren't there and time was ticking.
Of course there were other reasons for Collingwood having success but clearly the game plan was a winner on 2010 and started to lose its effectiveness after that.

The reason the game plan failed at Carlton was down to more than the fact it wasn't Mick's team He never got a team more suited to what he wanted as the plan no longer worked compared to what other teams were doing. It was an eyesore and it was taxing and we had our best performances when we dropped it and threw caution to the wind.

About the best I can say is that at least Mick encouraged the players to be more defensive minded so when they finally got a game plan that allowed them to move the ball, they didn't forget to do the 2 way running.
 

The 747

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 19, 2008
17,924
21,149
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
Not a bad coach imo. However been crueled by injuries not over the park but just at the flanks. Collingwood struggled to clear the ball. Had to move pendles back because all of.collingwoods best up and comming users were just crueled.by injury. Suddenly ball is just being blazed into the forwardline to alleviate the problem they had first few games of disposing cleanly outnof defense. Elliot injured. Cloke shot. Moore 3 years away=what can you do? Simply the cattle on the park would be competing for the same spot. Some guys are playing roles they cannot do.

It might be worth new blood. Not always the coaches fault but he cant take a trick. Not nathans fault

However i wouldnt be stunned if next year they come back anywhere from 5th-8th. I dont think they are in that position where its close to rebuilding. Its just last year young team fell off a cliff. This year injuries robbed them of any chance
Took over a team that finished 1st. Has gone 4th, 6th, 11th, 12th and 12th in five years. Not a bad coach? He's certainly not a good coach. This is also a team that has probably won all it's recent trades and has traded to bring in best 22 players.
 
Nov 8, 2000
80,487
75,239
Head in the clouds
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Nottingham Forest
Collingwood 2011 annihilated team after team, it was scary, wheels started to fall off about 5 rounds from the end, coincidentally when the premiership coach was told was told he'd still have to walk.

And when you see the way the players got around Hardwick tonight after the game you can understand why. players play for their coach,devastating to be told he's getting it in the neck for no good reason.
I don't disagree that the players wanted Mick to stay or that Buckley alienated players.

I merely see the logic in the shelf life of the game plan.
 

Hamingja

Brownlow Medallist
May 20, 2014
16,383
20,251
AFL Club
Geelong
In 2010 yes. As he said, in 2011 things changed. The game plan was figured out by team after team.
Collingwood only lost two games in the 2011 home and away season and were only down by a goal at three quarter time in the grand final. Selling them way short.
They lost 3 games for the year in 2011, all 3 to Geelong, at that stage they were definitely not figured out by team after team.
 

Greenswan

Debutant
Apr 29, 2015
120
216
AFL Club
Collingwood
In 2011 you made a grand final and were just absolutely horrific when it matted against Geelong. Would hardly believe that a host of clubs had dissected, maybe Hawthorn and Geelong obviously, but the Hawks were on the way to huge success.

It's a bit ridiculous to act like Mick's gameplan was pretty much the only reason they were successful. That ignores the fact that they had three jets in the middle in Thomas, Swan and Pendlebury along with a developing Beams and Sidebottom who has only gotten better as a player since 2011. Cloke was a gun up forward, and down back they had talent plus experience, something they're completely devoid of now. They certainly weren't the 2010 Saints or 2013 Dockers who had some genuinely ordinary talent in their sides. Clearly Mick had found something in the group and used it to his advantage. Buckley hasn't done that, so I think it's fair to argue that he might have ruined Collingwood from being far more successful with that side.

The whole argument around Buckley is that he was too focused on building his own team, rather than building on Mick's list and that it has backfired. It certainly has merit in my view. Back in 2012/13 when it began, we thought by now they'd have some young guns to complement the aging ones and keep them up the top of the ladder. It hasn't happened.

As for Carlton, that's merely an example of a coach trying to work miracles. That list wasn't his own and by the time he started getting a list better accustomed to what he wanted, the results weren't there and time was ticking.
This isn't true. Guys like Macaffer, Goldsack, Toovey, Brown were/are absolutely ordinary. The difference was these guys were allowed to be ordinary because they were extremely young at the time. They fit in well because they were all only expected to play one role which they could do. Fast forward 6 years and these guys were expected to move into our top 11 players to keep the 'dynasty' going. They were found out to be just rank ordinary role players though.
 

akneal

All Australian
May 1, 2012
718
434
woop woop
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Liverpool
Its a weird one, I feel their list is a bit undersized in the back half and then too tall in the front? Well, in tonights game anyway. Also, I can't tell if they have a lot of spuds on their list or if its Bucks game plan. I dont think much of Greenwood, Adams, Williams, Fasolo, Howe, White or Brown to name a few, but Treloar, Grundy, Moore, Wills (2nd game), Frost, Aish are all talented plus Pendles. Perhaps expectations are too high as they still have a fair few average players or list cloggers if you will.
Completely agree except for the bold, you lost me there
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Nov 8, 2000
80,487
75,239
Head in the clouds
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Nottingham Forest
They lost 3 games for the year in 2011, all 3 to Geelong, at that stage they were definitely not figured out by team after team.
No, he said that Geelong figured it out in 2011 and others thereafter. Nobody said it all happened at once. Buckley didn't completely change the game plan when he came in. He started tinkering with it as they started to struggle with it in 2012.
 

Peter Sidorkiewicz

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 2, 2004
5,379
3,204
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
This isn't true. Guys like Macaffer, Goldsack, Toovey, Brown were/are absolutely ordinary. The difference was these guys were allowed to be ordinary because they were extremely young at the time. They fit in well because they were all only expected to play one role which they could do. Fast forward 6 years and these guys were expected to move into our top 11 players to keep the 'dynasty' going. They were found out to be just rank ordinary role players though.
I agree with this.

In 2010, Goldsack was the 22nd man, Brown was a late replacement for Presti. Blair, Macaffer, Toovey were probably ranked 20th, 19th and 18th man respectively.

They were bottom 6 players at best.
 

mike123

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 13, 2013
29,896
26,461
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Juventus
Definitely, he had good '14 and '15 seasons but not sure what has happened this season. I think he got injured and struggled for some form?
He only got games those years because Brown and Reid were injured and Keeffe got suspended. He constantly lags behind he's opponents and gifts them 2 or 3 goals, he fumbles when ever he's near the ball, he shits his pants when he has ball in hand and doesn't play to his limitations.
 

adammania9

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 18, 2013
10,798
22,399
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
University
He only got games those years because Brown and Reid were injured and Keeffe got suspended. He constantly lags behind he's opponents and gifts them 2 or 3 goals, he fumbles when ever he's near the ball, he shits his pants when he has ball in hand and doesn't play to his limitations.
Frost's 2014 season was terrific. Shut down some really good key forwards. It's fair to say his 2016 hasn't been ideal but he's proven he's more than capable at AFL level.
 

mike123

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 13, 2013
29,896
26,461
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Juventus
Frost's 2014 season was terrific. Shut down some really good key forwards. It's fair to say his 2016 hasn't been ideal but he's proven he's more than capable at AFL level.
Frost's 2014 was overrated shut down some good forwards but also got completely annihilated as well and hasn't improved since. He's capable at AFL level but I wouldn't want him anything more than just depth.
 

SterlingArcher

Brownlow Medallist
May 16, 2014
12,154
15,970
AFL Club
Carlton
This isn't true. Guys like Macaffer, Goldsack, Toovey, Brown were/are absolutely ordinary. The difference was these guys were allowed to be ordinary because they were extremely young at the time. They fit in well because they were all only expected to play one role which they could do. Fast forward 6 years and these guys were expected to move into our top 11 players to keep the 'dynasty' going. They were found out to be just rank ordinary role players though.
That's 4.

Compare that to St Kilda '10 - Dawson, Blake, Eddy, Peake, Jones, McQualter...
 

Sidebottom2Beams

Premiership Player
Sep 28, 2009
3,672
2,637
Gold Coast
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Jazz
That's 4.

Compare that to St Kilda '10 - Dawson, Blake, Eddy, Peake, Jones, McQualter...
You also had Maxwell and Lumumba Blair and Dawes who were average but good triers. 2012 Ball does a knee, Krak does a knee, Tarrant misses half the season Didak misses half the season Jolly's body breaks down, Buckleys one big mistake was letting Davis go, hurt in 2012.
 

gavaniacono

Cancelled
Oct 7, 2014
7,939
10,140
Hanoi
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Collingwood only lost two games in the 2011 home and away season and were only down by a goal at three quarter time in the grand final. Selling them way short.
Indeed. Rather than the game plan failing that day, Makthouse himself may have failed in some of his positional decisions.
 

Melksham2Siposs

All Australian
Sep 10, 2015
698
2,429
AFL Club
St Kilda
Collingwoods 2010 GF victory was all down to the press, 2011 Geelong had it figured out by the first game they won by a kick and should have won by 10 goals if not for bad kicking. We were not even close to being on Geelongs level in 2011 and the Hawks should have knocked us out in the PF.
Pies 2011 H&A were one of the best teams I've ever seen.

You don't usually make a point of watching a team that just flogged you in a GF, but that was awesome to watch.
 

adammania9

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 18, 2013
10,798
22,399
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
University
You also had Maxwell and Lumumba Blair and Dawes who were average but good triers. 2012 Ball does a knee, Krak does a knee, Tarrant misses half the season Didak misses half the season Jolly's body breaks down, Buckleys one big mistake was letting Davis go, hurt in 2012.
You're picking a bit here - we did have a couple of average talents but you're naming too many to make it seem like our demise has been less completed by Bucks.

Blair was a jet in 2010 playing some great football, Dawes had a good year, kicking 30 something goals, Harry O was AA in 2010 playing incredible footy off the back flank and Maxwell was a very serviceable defender that may have not been the best player, but his leadership role and shut down quality was more than warranting of a spot in our best 22. He was AA just a year before.

Macaffer's GF replay was very important, kicking two goals when the game was in the early stages. Brown, Toovey and Goldsack I'll give you.
 

Remove this Banner Ad