Nathan Jones - Dud Watch.

[master bate]

Have been saying this for a while myself Biff.

Put simply his disposal and decision making are terrible. He does have some games were he seems to put it all together but they are to few and far between.

I think the issue is how often he puts it together. Superstars like Ablett are models of consistency, but most solid/good level AFL midfielders have off days. We all know what Jones' deficiency is. Just like Buddy Franklin has days where he kicks a lot of points, Jones will have days where he gets caught and turns it over. I thought for the back end of last year he had more good games than average ones. Maybe 7/10 - if he does that again this year I won't be too upset. Once again I think we need to be cautious about judging on one nab challenge game. Nothing can replace the pressure of match day and maybe after 4 practice games Jonesy will find that split second that allows him to make better decisions and hit up targets by foot.

 

[krisholio14]

Comrade, the ineptitude is independent of the final result on the scoreboard.

Jones can get the ball well enough. When the differential falls - like an axe - between him and someone like Ablett is his decision-making ability once the Sherrin is in his hands (leaving aside, for one moment, his all too regular inability to hit a target with a simple handball, which was repeatedly on display yesterday).

Perhaps he has some sort of fetish for becoming the most tackled guy in the league. Can I suggest, however, that if one is caught up in heavy traffic, rather than handballing to a stationary team-mate who is standing beside you (and we all know what happens at that point), why not kick it and create a 50/50 contest some 45 metres up the ground?

I am a great believer in spontaneity - particularly when it comes to thoughts. When Jones ran back towards the Essendon goals and then centred it - yes, centred it - to a 1:2 contest, it took my breath away and the thought came: this is ground zero; this is garbage that I have never ever seen before and that includes 1981. And yes, I have seen plenty of crap since Round 1, 2007.

Wow thats a pretty big call. That Melbourne side is the worst I have ever seen in 35 years of watching footy.

I get the feeling Nathan Jones would be/ have developed into a much better footballer than he is currently had he been at another club.

Like us for example.

However I do agree with you, his decision making and disposal have been worse than ordinary for the best part of three years now.

 

[RandB]

Everything you talk about revolves around the defensive side of the game. Under Bailey we've played a reactive game (don't take risks/don't kick to contests). Under Knights, Essendon have played a proactive gamestyle, and yes they have copped their share of beltings, but imo they are lightyears ahead of us.

Under Bailey we've played 2 years with a shite load of players who were never part of our future who were not up to AFL standard.
I agree with you that atm we don't take risks, most supporters would and guess what? So does Dean Bailey - he stated earlier last week this exact thing. He's on a long path of instilling this. Also we are about 2 years behind Essendon not lightyears. Our reactive game is a symptom not a gameplan.

Their list is no better than ours, but they play instinctively and with belief. It's amazing how better your skills look when you are playing instinctively and with confidence. If the current batch of kids that you mention aren't allowed to play instinctive football, we will be bemoaning their poor skill levels in 2 years time.

I agree once again, instinctive footy is crucial but assuming it won't eventuate based on what we have seen so far is pointess. Also if you were say Scully or Trengove, despite giving it your all, how confident would you be knowing that the future of the club rests on players like you and that you are surrounded by senior players who are inadequate who make your job harder?

Just because we have archaic forwards like Miller (purely as an example) doing the same predictable play of leading and dishing off a handball to a player who is probably collared it doesn't mean the kids will play pre-meditated crap down the track - atm they are just trying to keep their heads above water.

Another issue mo is zoning. Now, the side-effects of a young team learning zoning coupled with a senior list who don't have the polish are not pretty (I'll be the first to admit) but once defensive zoning is mastered and then consolidated on it holds a team in good stead. The way Essendon play is evident of the pace they have had in the side, it doesn't mean that Knights was right and Bailey wrong it was simply Knights' luxury and prerogative. If they can employ a decent defensive zone against the top sides I'll walk to China.

As far as fitness goes, watch the Freo game again (if possible) they were easily in better condition than us. Despite the pressure we were under to perform (exerted by them) they were faster, found space better, handled the physicality, manned up and hardly had a single player strapped. We were fatigued by the end of that game due to the pace and pressure. Freo walked off in very good shape.

We have been good but not good enough, we need to go up a notch. Our pre-season was about skills and injury management which were found out under pressure. Starting early clearly hasn't made a profound influence on our condition compared to other teams. The draftees would have started early December. Olympic Park will help us go up a notch as well as a bigger FD.

 

[demonfan9]

We all know that Jones is a very limited player, but I think it will be a big benefit to him when he starts to get some quality receivers around. Daniel Cross is an example of an inside midfielder with ordinary skills, but when he has the players around him to feed it to.

 

[Biffinator]

Have been saying this for a while myself Biff.

Put simply his disposal and decision making are terrible. He does have some games were he seems to put it all together but they are to few and far between.

Comrade MR, could one suggest that the problem we have here is one of relativity?

We have a weak list, albeit one studded with some promising youngsters. At a Geelong, not only would Nathan Jones look better per se, he would not be at the forefront of players.

If a player's disposal and decision making are both flakey, then he should be a fringe player at best. Unfortunately given where we are as a club, Jones is more prominent than what he should be. And sadly - yes sadly - he is not intrinsically better than what he was a few years ago.

In my mind, there is a very fine line between Nathan Jones & Clint Bartram. To me, they are both essentially cut from the same cloth.

 

[RandB]

Jones is more prominent than what he should be.

I agree with this.

At 22 though we at least can entertain the notion of him improving compared to the countless other players who are too prominent via simply getting a game in the first place.

 

[Mr Rude]

Comrade MR, could one suggest that the problem we have here is one of relativity?

We have a weak list, albeit one studded with some promising youngsters. At a Geelong, not only would Nathan Jones look better per se, he would not be at the forefront of players.

If a player's disposal and decision making are both flakey, then he should be a fringe player at best. Unfortunately given where we are as a club, Jones is more prominent than what he should be. And sadly - yes sadly - he is not intrinsically better than what he was a few years ago.

In my mind, there is a very fine line between Nathan Jones & Clint Bartram. To me, they are both essentially cut from the same cloth.

I agree Biff, its one of those damned if we do damned if we don't situations. I could guarantee if we traded him to a club with a strong list he would look a million bucks and we would look like dip shits for trading him. But sometimes the tough decisions need to be made.

I'm willing to hold on judgment until the end of the year and see how Jones goes but if he is going to be traded it needs to be sometime in the near future while he still has some currency.

Only part i cant agree with is the comparison to Bartram. Jones can win his own ball, is probably our best clearance player (with Moloney) and kick it over a jam tin. Skills young Clint has yet to and will never master. But turnover and decision making wise, yes i understand where you are coming from.

 

[demonfan9]

Comrade MR, could one suggest that the problem we have here is one of relativity?

We have a weak list, albeit one studded with some promising youngsters. At a Geelong, not only would Nathan Jones look better per se, he would not be at the forefront of players.

If a player's disposal and decision making are both flakey, then he should be a fringe player at best. Unfortunately given where we are as a club, Jones is more prominent than what he should be. And sadly - yes sadly - he is not intrinsically better than what he was a few years ago.

Good point. No doubt Jones would find it easier with Geelong or St Kilda players around him, but then again, he might not even get a game at either of those teams.

 

[Biffinator]

Biff....mate, I hate to say it about a fellow Demon but your previous comments make you sound like a flog to the highest degree.
If you feel the need to lay into our players after a practice match then maybe consider venturing over to the Richmond board permanently.

If every player who pulls on the Melbourne jumber every week and turns up to training 5 or 6 days a week gave as much guts and determination and uncomprimising hard at the ball approach as Jones - both you I and would enjoy watching every match as you would never for a moment doubt that the team hasn't layed their body on the line or head over ball when it mattered.

Decsion making is just of the puzzle - give me pride in the jumper and a disgust when a player or team beats you - both strong Jones attributes and you will go along way to having the Melbourne team and results we strive and hope for.

Next time have a think before laying into a player who is leading our club towards where we rightfully should be.

Comrade MDPRE1 I have been thinking about your comment all day as I went about my business and I would like to respond thus.

None of us want to replicate a Richmond dynamic at our club, what with the spitting, the poo-in-the-mail and the self-loathing, but my god some additional blood in our veins would not go astray. Away with the thermos and the crosswords and rugs.

I have been a paid up member since 1982 (Gerard Healy & Jacko!!) and I have indoctrinated my two children, my wife and my nephew. I was there yelling away at Tiger in 1996. I have put my money into the club over the decades and allow me to say this: the players are accountable to me, just as they are to every paid-up member. They are our employees.

You know: I conveyed my disquiet to both Cameron Schwab and Nathan Jones as they trooped off the ground and stuff it, I am not apologetic in the least.

I don't know about you mate - and this is not personal in any way - but I am just not going to put up tamely with semi-dishonourable losses any more. Life is so short - I sat through all that crap at the beginning of the 1980s and some of the 1970s. I do not give a stuff if it is a practice match or whatever it is - they were wearing the jumper and we ineptly lost to a longstanding and much hated enemy.

Perhaps I am the cause of it all. I was born on the very day that Norm Smith was sacked (this is the truth)! So perhaps I should take up an extreme sport (like opening up the mail at Punt Road).

I am sure we are both on the same page essentially. We both love our club and want the 13th to arrive. I would hate to think that, MFC-wise, the next few decades (assuming they are mine to live!) are going to replicate the past 'cos it is a colossal expediture of energy & lifeblood.

Anyway, there you have it. Feel free to disagree.

 

[dee64]

Hey Biffinator, it sounds like Nathan Jones was trying to replicate Brett Favre with a high risk pass to a 1 on 2 situation. The difference is, one was during a practise match whilst the other was for a conference championship.

 

[mdpre1]

Biff...
Don't stress about my comments, I have a vested interested in so far as Nath is one of my better mates and has been since high school. So I have seen 1st hand how much he puts into the club (ie people endlessly stopping him in the street to talk footy and then at another level the amount of sacrifice - ie friends birthdays, drinks ect that he doesn't get a chance to come to all in the name of the footy club).
I also agree with you that any employee of an organisation should be held accountable for their actions - but my gripe with you was how you put it.

Constructive criticism or an analysis of weaknesses - go for it. But 'worst of all time' and 'trade at all costs' is surely on over-reaction and not that usefull.

Opinions differ and I for one can't see the sense in trading our best extractor just when it looks like we have an exciting array of young mid-field support developing in the wings.

All teams need a mix of experience/leadership etc and in 2 or 3 years time when you can realisticlly expect the likes of Trendgove, Scully and Grimes to be hitting their straps I can see great value in having a 100+ games player in Jones standing their beside them.

My thoughts only and everyone is entitled to their own

 

[EricisBananaman]

Biff...
Don't stress about my comments, I have a vested interested in so far as Nath is one of my better mates and has been since high school. So I have seen 1st hand how much he puts into the club (ie people endlessly stopping him in the street to talk footy and then at another level the amount of sacrifice - ie friends birthdays, drinks ect that he doesn't get a chance to come to all in the name of the footy club).
I also agree with you that any employee of an organisation should be held accountable for their actions - but my gripe with you was how you put it.

Constructive criticism or an analysis of weaknesses - go for it. But 'worst of all time' and 'trade at all costs' is surely on over-reaction and not that usefull.

Opinions differ and I for one can't see the sense in trading our best extractor just when it looks like we have an exciting array of young mid-field support developing in the wings.

All teams need a mix of experience/leadership etc and in 2 or 3 years time when you can realisticlly expect the likes of Trendgove, Scully and Grimes to be hitting their straps I can see great value in having a 100+ games player in Jones standing their beside them.

My thoughts only and everyone is entitled to their own

Here here - mate, if you ever speak to nathan be sure to tell him not to listen to the clowns on this site.

Ive been embarrassed by A LOT of the players in the past 5 years to put on a dees jumper, but jones is certainly not one of them. In fact, he's one of the few which I can say with pride that he lines up for us every week.

For a 21 - 22 yo he has performed exceptionally well in what has obviously been a torrid start to his career (in terms of the players around him and the team continuously getting flogged). He's clearly the most determined on our list, never shirks it, and I believe the criticism about his skills is way off the mark (he can actually spot up a target when hes not getting poleaxed by 3 opposition players due to the lack of protection from the other spuds around him).

He'll flourish once scully, grimes, trengove etc get some games into them and he will be a vital cog in our midfield, which by then should be amongst the better units in the comp.

 

[WattsGoodForYou]

Here here - mate, if you ever speak to nathan be sure to tell him not to listen to the clowns on this site.

I hope that was a joke.

 

[bing181]

the players are accountable to me, just as they are to every paid-up member. They are our employees.Feel free to disagree.

They are definitely NOT our employees. Bizarre thing to say. In any case, if that's how you see the employer/employee relationship, heaven help anyone who works under you. A good employer encourages, rewards, motivates, even with people who perform less well.

Which, IMHO, is not the case with Jones. Wish we had more players with his heart.

B

 

[ExTasDeeMan]

Not bailing on the fella - I think this year, with such a young and talented midfield knocking on the door, that he starts to show leadership. He is still young, but in a year he will be the elder statesman in the midfield.

Time to wake up. I'm confident in his motor, but his foot skills and decision making (often hand in hand), need to improve.

 

[Biffinator]

They are definitely NOT our employees. Bizarre thing to say. In any case, if that's how you see the employer/employee relationship, heaven help anyone who works under you. A good employer encourages, rewards, motivates, even with people who perform less well.

Which, IMHO, is not the case with Jones. Wish we had more players with his heart.

B

Well Simon Godfrey had lots of heart as well as did Luke Williams - so what? That is but one consideration in the mix.

In modern day football, if you have crap decision-making & poor disposal, both of which lead to turn overs, well, welcome to Hackland.

I suppose that is the nature of these threads. One starts with specific observable behaviour - Jones' lamentable performance in the practice match against Essendon - and soon enough the conversation will become generalised and someone will wade in with a reference to his Phar Lap-like heart. It is all so much stuffing to match the turkey.

Me: I want players with heart AND skills who show some improvement after being in the system for nearly five years.

 

[wowlace]

Well Simon Godfrey had lots of heart as well as did Luke Williams - so what? That is but one consideration in the mix.

In modern day football, if you have crap decision-making & poor disposal, both of which lead to turn overs, well, welcome to Hackland.

I suppose that is the nature of these threads. One starts with specific observable behaviour - Jones' lamentable performance in the practice match against Essendon - and soon enough the conversation will become generalised and someone will wade in with a reference to his Phar Lap-like heart. It is all so much stuffing to match the turkey.

Me: I want players with heart AND skills who show some improvement after being in the system for nearly five years.

Dude... don't you know? You cannot criticize in the Melbourne forum.

 

[mfc150]

Well Simon Godfrey had lots of heart as well as did Luke Williams - so what? That is but one consideration in the mix.

In modern day football, if you have crap decision-making & poor disposal, both of which lead to turn overs, well, welcome to Hackland.

I suppose that is the nature of these threads. One starts with specific observable behaviour - Jones' lamentable performance in the practice match against Essendon - and soon enough the conversation will become generalised and someone will wade in with a reference to his Phar Lap-like heart. It is all so much stuffing to match the turkey.

Me: I want players with heart AND skills who show some improvement after being in the system for nearly five years.

I enjoy your wit Biffinator but unfortunately you have displayed a profound lack of football knowledge.

Jones is a very attacking footballer in a poor side. This presents difficulties for him. In a good team with confident team-mates Jones would have players running forward for him to deliver to. He does need to temper his attacking nature but we don't want him to chage too much.

He was our best against Freo in the real NAB game, won more clearances, got more tackles and was one of the few players hitting targets inside 50.

Jones is not comparable to Godfrey and nothing like Luke Williams.

Jones is by far the strongest player we have in tight and is the strongest we have had since Todd Viney.

There will always be a place for players like Jones as long as there is contested football.

 

[bing181]

Dude... don't you know? You cannot criticize in the Melbourne forum.

Criticism is one thing, as is a discussion about a player's skills, technique, ability etc. Personal abuse, and referring to players as "duds" and "crap" are subjective (at the very least), and say more about the postee than the player.

B

 

[Supermercado]

Me: I want players with heart AND skills who show some improvement after being in the system for nearly five years.

I think you follow the wrong side.

 

[Biffinator]

Comrades - in these sort of discussons, there is always a 'break glass, push button' moment and out rolls Simon Godfrey as a metaphor. He will never attain escape velocity. The legend will pass down to the generations that follow

Diamond Jim Tilbrook, Kelvin Templeton, Daryl Cutherbertson & Woey - among many others - are likewise deployable, albeit in different contexts.

 

[LITTLE STINGA]

Well Simon Godfrey had lots of heart as well as did Luke Williams - so what? That is but one consideration in the mix.

In modern day football, if you have crap decision-making & poor disposal, both of which lead to turn overs, well, welcome to Hackland.

I suppose that is the nature of these threads. One starts with specific observable behaviour - Jones' lamentable performance in the practice match against Essendon - and soon enough the conversation will become generalised and someone will wade in with a reference to his Phar Lap-like heart. It is all so much stuffing to match the turkey.

Me: I want players with heart AND skills who show some improvement after being in the system for nearly five years.

I'm glad that topic's like this can be discussed unlike Demonland where the mods rule with an iron fist even though if asked me to explain what I have typed I would be able to do it easily.

Now that I have got Demonland off my chest I personally wouldn't be looking at him first when it comes to dud watch, but he's 1 of many with a big question mark on him. If he continues to be our No 1 or 2 midfielder then we are going to continually have problems but I think he could be a handy 3rd or 4th midfielder. He wasn't too bad against the Dockers.

 

[Biffinator]

I'm glad that topic's like this can be discussed unlike Demonland where the mods rule with an iron fist even though if asked me to explain what I have typed I would be able to do it easily.

Now that I have got Demonland off my chest I personally wouldn't be looking at him first when it comes to dud watch, but he's 1 of many with a big question mark on him. If he continues to be our No 1 or 2 midfielder then we are going to continually have problems but I think he could be a handy 3rd or 4th midfielder. He wasn't too bad against the Dockers.

Comrade, for what my views are worth - not much - the moderators at Demonland are extremely conscious of their "dignity". Demonland is great for the Three Word Analyses, the injury reports (far too fulsome of late) and anything penned by Whispering Jack.

A prophet is not accepted in his own home-town. Yze Magic - arguably the most famous of our online supporters - has been disgracefully treated over at Demonland by some very snooty moderators.

Such as I am, I want to contribute more to our Demon Forum than the Bay this year. There is no reason, given the higher calibre of the average Demons poster, why we all - together - can't make this forum better than Demonland or indeed, Demonology.

 

[wowlace]

Sounded like Jones was alright yesterday. I heard his name being called over the radio alot. Getting loose balls.

 

[Powerstufff]

One of the wittiest, most literate threads I've seen on BF.
I love Biffinator's 'fiddlesticks' footer.
I logged on to the Melbourne board to see how the game went yesterday but saw this thread on Nathan Jones, who is one of my favourite non-Port players. Admittedly it was a few years ago that he earnt my respect and so interesting to see him not so much in favour.