National Broadband Network

Ice-Wolf

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Seems like the whole rationale of the NBN going all the way to the home (rather than a street corner node) is dead before the NBN even gets started.
ABC The Businessinterviews the man whose company invented ADSL technology and he explains:
1) Fibre-to-the-home is up to 10 times more expensive than fibre-to-the-node.​
2) VDSL is now ready for adoption. Vectored DSL is a new technology that allows the last bit of copper wire to carry 100 MBS (at 1000 metres) or over 1,0000 MBS if the copper length is 100-300 metres.​

ADSL2+ can theoretically do 24Mbps, how does it do in the real world?

Can you can show me existing copper network that has been "upgraded" to VDSL that can actually reach those speeds at those distances?
 

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TheMase

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Seems like the whole rationale of the NBN going all the way to the home (rather than a street corner node) is dead before the NBN even gets started.
ABC The Businessinterviews the man whose company invented ADSL technology and he explains:

1) Fibre-to-the-home is up to 10 times more expensive than fibre-to-the-node.
2) VDSL is now ready for adoption. Vectored DSL is a new technology that allows the last bit of copper wire to carry 100 MBS (at 1000 metres) or over 1,0000 MBS if the copper length is 100-300 metres.​
You quote someone with a vested interest as fibre being dead?

He runs this company http://www.assia-inc.com
optimising DSL, he invented it, can we really believe anything he says discrediting its competitor?
 

greennick

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ADSL2+ can theoretically do 24Mbps, how does it do in the real world?

Can you can show me existing copper network that has been "upgraded" to VDSL that can actually reach those speeds at those distances?
ADSL2+ can do 24Mbs if you are down the road from the exchange. This is proven to be possible and is achieved in real life. However, most of us don't live down the road from the exchange.

This is quoted as being for 100-300m of copper length, so it is already heavily constrained. Though, 300m would cover most of the planned lengths in the coalitions election NBN plan.

Still, can we trust a guy with vested interests? Hell no.

This is why we need an independent panel of experts to be analysing the NBN plans, completing a TCO analysis over the whole lifecyle and with NPV calculations.
 

greennick

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You quote someone with a vested interest as fibre being dead?

He runs this company http://www.assia-inc.com
optimising DSL, he invented it, can we really believe anything he says discrediting its competitor?
So, are we going to ignore every person in IT as they pretty much all have some kind of vested interest? Or, will we get all the relevant facts and make our own decisions?

I sure as hell hope they do the latter...
 

TheMase

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ADSL2+ can do 24Mbs if you are down the road from the exchange. This is proven to be possible and is achieved in real life. However, most of us don't live down the road from the exchange.
Well not exactly true, but not far off. I lived down the road from one previously and got around 21/22.

You would have to be in the exchange to get 24 in reality however the drop off is not that rapid. Problem has been that 1km in distance from the exchange may be 2.5km of cable.

They are already doing a form of 'patch node' to some extent. My dad in Bathurst could only get ADSL, Telstra just ran a fibre to a nearby box and now he is getting around 20Mb/s on ADSL2. Of course upgrading the whole network to node is very different to this example. This was fairly recently.
 

Ice-Wolf

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ADSL2+ can do 24Mbs if you are down the road from the exchange. This is proven to be possible and is achieved in real life. However, most of us don't live down the road from the exchange.

This is quoted as being for 100-300m of copper length, so it is already heavily constrained. Though, 300m would cover most of the planned lengths in the coalitions election NBN plan.

Still, can we trust a guy with vested interests? Hell no.

This is why we need an independent panel of experts to be analysing the NBN plans, completing a TCO analysis over the whole lifecyle and with NPV calculations.
Is the quoted copper length at all relevant to the copper gauge and configuration typically used in Telstra's network not to mention the condition of the copper itself?

What we do know is that NZ who had a very similar network to Australia tried FTTN and could only get an average of around 10Mbps down. FTTN was so successful in NZ that they canned it and started rolling out FTTP.

People need to remember that in FTTN's case we are talking about upgrading Telstras copper network not a network that was designed with FTTN technologies in mind.
 

TheMase

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So, are we going to ignore every person in IT as they pretty much all have some kind of vested interest? Or, will we get all the relevant facts and make our own decisions?

I sure as hell hope they do the latter...
I agree with your premise. My post was quoted because a poster claimed the NBN was 'dead before it began' on the back of one IT person who has a deep rooted vested interest.

Taking this person into account and claiming the Fibre NBN to be dead is a big step... That would be ignoring many in IT.
 

greennick

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Is the quoted copper length at all relevant to the copper gauge and configuration typically used in Telstra's network not to mention the condition of the copper itself?

What we do know is that NZ who had a very similar network to Australia tried FTTN and could only get an average of around 10Mbps down. FTTN was so successful in NZ that they canned it and started rolling out FTTP.

People need to remember that in FTTN's case we are talking about upgrading Telstras copper network not a network that was designed with FTTN technologies in mind.
To be fair to FTTN, from what I understand NZ installed that under different technology and with different circumstances. From memory, the 10mbps was for up to 2 or 3km away, which is far further than will be applicable for the government's election promise proposal and is more similar to our current ADSL2+ set-up.

Again, either way, they should just do a bloody cost benefit and prove what technology is worth it. How hard is it to expect them to take the politics out of it and run NBN Co like the multi-billion dollar company it is. Let NBN Co decide what is the best technology based on their own financial analysis (ie, what are people willing to pay vs what it costs upfront and in perpetuity).
 

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Dry Rot

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Use the money saved on public widespread WIFI
Like lots of EMR and EMF exposure? Looking forward to a juicy brain tumour from your mobile phone?

Google electro hypersensitivity and what the Europeans are doing about it.

The sooner we get rid of WiFi the better. Utter silly of a technology.

And read "Disconnect" by Devra Davis. You'll never look at your mobile phone the same way again.
 
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To be fair to FTTN, from what I understand NZ installed that under different technology and with different circumstances. From memory, the 10mbps was for up to 2 or 3km away, which is far further than will be applicable for the government's election promise proposal and is more similar to our current ADSL2+ set-up.

Again, either way, they should just do a bloody cost benefit and prove what technology is worth it. How hard is it to expect them to take the politics out of it and run NBN Co like the multi-billion dollar company it is. Let NBN Co decide what is the best technology based on their own financial analysis (ie, what are people willing to pay vs what it costs upfront and in perpetuity).

Always makes me chuckle when its said theres been no cost benefit analysis when the whole thins been analysed to hell and back.

The problem is, as turnbull noted, that media is focussed entirely on conflict and controversy instead of boring facts, mind you it suited them in opposition.
 

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notice how there is no money coming from the nbn to pay for any tax payers project why is that?

Despite Abbott and the pro coalition media lies that the nbn money would be better to go roads ,hospitals ,

hence nbn is not costing the taxpayer so there is no money from the nbn to go to other projects


The nbn would had made interest for the government , but now under the coalition version it will cost the taxpayer a fortunate to maintain and upgrade old copper technology
Not sure what universe you are in.

If the NBN money is not taxpayer expense, where has it come from?
That's right it is part of the massive borrowing and who pays the interest.
Unless they have found a fairy godmother it will be the taxpayer.

How could the NBN provide money for other projects when it is losing money ??

It seems no individuals are prepared to pay the real cost of providing the service and hence it will have no chance of returning the money spent.

From a financial perspective all the coalition will do with the NBN is limit the cost that and perhaps have a chance of redirecting some future funds elsewhere.
 
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Completely irrelevant argument, but I think you already know that.

I'll await a list of reports and examples that show what providing everyone access to 1Gbps will achieve.
The current pots network is 50 odd years old and now supports several factors more throughput

If its not at the end of its useful life now it certainly will be in 5 to 10 years

Given that theres an agreement to conduct a country wide upgrade, the point is whether you put something in which wont need replacing for 50 years or put something in which will need significant upgrade after 5 years
 

clogged

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Like lots of EMR and EMF exposure? Looking forward to a juicy brain tumour from your mobile phone?

Google electro hypersensitivity and what the Europeans are doing about it.

The sooner we get rid of WiFi the better. Utter silly of a technology.

And read "Disconnect" by Devra Davis. You'll never look at your mobile phone the same way again.
Dumb psuedoscience. You won't get a brain tumour from wireless signals.
 

PottSie2

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The current pots network is 50 odd years old and now supports several factors more throughput

If its not at the end of its useful life now it certainly will be in 5 to 10 years

Given that theres an agreement to conduct a country wide upgrade, the point is whether you put something in which wont need replacing for 50 years or put something in which will need significant upgrade after 5 years

Can you tell me where the 5 to 10 years figure comes from ? Will that be covered in Turnbulls report ?

Best case scenario would Turnbull keeping a majority of FTTP, but at a reasonable cost. Maybe what was impossible under Labor, might be possible under someone as capable as Turnbull ?
 

Ice-Wolf

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Can you tell me where the 5 to 10 years figure comes from ? Will that be covered in Turnbulls report ?

Best case scenario would Turnbull keeping a majority of FTTP, but at a reasonable cost. Maybe what was impossible under Labor, might be possible under someone as capable as Turnbull ?

:rolleyes:
 
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Can you tell me where the 5 to 10 years figure comes from ? Will that be covered in Turnbulls report ?

Best case scenario would Turnbull keeping a majority of FTTP, but at a reasonable cost. Maybe what was impossible under Labor, might be possible under someone as capable as Turnbull ?
Just as long as he is objective, remember they launched their policy at fox studios, many will be very suspicious until there are clear signs of objectivity
 

ep2018

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Like lots of EMR and EMF exposure? Looking forward to a juicy brain tumour from your mobile phone?

Google electro hypersensitivity and what the Europeans are doing about it.

The sooner we get rid of WiFi the better. Utter silly of a technology.

And read "Disconnect" by Devra Davis. You'll never look at your mobile phone the same way again.
What wireless technology do you suppose we use instead?
 

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Turns out its five computers per person worldwide thats the ones in use not the ones discarded in drawers
Strange stat considering 1/3 of the worlds population don't even have electricity and have never seen a telephone?
Maybe 5 computers for every first world person, if you count playstation 1's, Commodore 64's and digital watches.
 

PottSie2

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Just as long as he is objective, remember they launched their policy at fox studios, many will be very suspicious until there are clear signs of objectivity

Yeah, that was quite strange.

But Foxtel Go is one of the best streaming apps/services on the market, so I think they would embrace the new digital world. Probably even more so than traditional free-to-air networks that rely on ad based revenue, as opposed to subscription (+ ad) based revenues ?
 
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