National Broadband Network

[kaysee]

I sure they all told you exactly why your idea is ******* stupid though didn't they.

No. At least they attempted to supply some technical examples, but shut up when it was pointed out how FTTP wasn't a requirement to facilitate the examples they raised.

Pity you can't offer more to the debate, but keep trying Wolfie.

 

[kaysee]

I'm sorry... What?

I mean that physics is not a "blocker", it is a hurdle that can be negotiated.

Are you suggesting that the laws of physics will restrict our evolution of technology? That today's technology will stay the same, that today's technology restrictions will stay the same, because physics will be the same?

If that was your intent, I merely highlighted how physics will stay the same (as you suggested), but it doesn't mean technology can't evolve to overcome the hurdles those physics present... using flight as an example.

 

[kaysee]

What's that have to do with the Maxwell's demon like nonsense that is DIDO?​

​

Not sure who "Maxwell" is, but as for DIDO's value, well you apparently think it is "BS and nonsense" and I think it is revolutionary for wireless comms. I'm happy with my position. Let's see what happens.

 

[Admiral Byng]

No the laws of physics will be the same... doesn't mean that technology can't evolve to find ways around physics. Gravity has stayed the same since it was discovered and yet man found his way to the moon.

You only need to look at the work being done by Rearden Labs (DIDO) and Kumo Networks (Full Duplex) to see technology evolving around physics.

It's still technology in the development stage, something that has been demonstrated on a small scale under lab conditions. Certainly not anything commercially available of a national communications netowrk type scale.

Compared with optic fibres, a proven and reliable technology, available today on a large scale commercial basis. Meanwhile optic fibres are still under further development in the lab too, speeds of over 300 Gbps have been demonstrated.

Let's start building with what we've got available today. If something better and cheaper comes along later, swell, we can stop rolling out fibre and switch the rest of the roll-out to that technology. But what if it doesn't - we do nothing for 10 years while the copper network is completely run-down and dysfunctional and then we make a decision to proceed?

 

[clogged]

Not sure who "Maxwell" is, but as for DIDO's value, well you apparently think it is "BS and nonsense" and I think it is revolutionary for wireless comms. I'm happy with my position. Let's see what happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon

It's the same nonsense. DIDO's centralised server is the demon. Nice as a thought experiment, not actually practical in any physical sense.

 

[yibbida]

1 Gbps NBNCo plans will be released on 19 December for those lucky enough to have fibre.

For everyone else you will go from up to 24 Mbps to up to 25 Mbps by the end of 2016*.

* assuming Turnbull can connect 9,000 premises per day until the end of 2016.

 

[yibbida]

​

Not sure who "Maxwell" is, but as for DIDO's value, well you apparently think it is "BS and nonsense" and I think it is revolutionary for wireless comms. I'm happy with my position. Let's see what happens.

LOL you fell for marketing spin.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

1 Gbps NBNCo plans will be released on 19 December for those lucky enough to have fibre.

For everyone else you will go from up to 24 Mbps to up to 25 Mbps by the end of 2016*.

* assuming Turnbull can connect 9,000 premises per day until the end of 2016.

Seeing as they still need to negotiate with Telstra for access to the copper and they will also need Telstra shareholder approval of any new deal, test implementations of FTTN probably won't be able to begin before 2015.

I dare say they will need to do significantly more than 9000 per day, particular seeing that under their control NBNco's FTTP rollout has come to virtual halt compared to where it was going prior to the election.

 

[yibbida]

Seeing as they still need to negotiate with Telstra for access to the copper and they will also need Telstra shareholder approval of any new deal, test implementations of FTTN probably won't be able to begin before 2015.

I dare say they will need to do significantly more than 9000 per day, particular seeing that under their control NBNco's FTTP rollout has come to virtual halt compared to where it was going prior to the election.

Turnbull and Abbott have made a promise. They have to deliver. That is likely to mean that Telstra will take advantage of that in the negotiations, like China will with the 12 month timeframe Abbott put on the "trade agreement"....

 

[kaysee]

It's still technology in the development stage, something that has been demonstrated on a small scale under lab conditions. Certainly not anything commercially available of a national communications netowrk type scale.

Honestly, what is your point here? To discount technical advances until they're commercialised? So tell me again why households require 100Mbps connections? Why has UHDTV been used as a justification since 2006, then spent 7 years in development before becoming commercially available this year in 2013.

Why, LTE was first proposed in 2004 (NTT DoCoMo), first launched in 2009 (TeliaSoneria) and by 2013 has become mainstream. Given the huge global demand for wireless services, these developing technologies will see the light of day before the NBN is even completed in 2021 (if on time).

Compared with optic fibres, a proven and reliable technology, available today on a large scale commercial basis. Meanwhile optic fibres are still under further development in the lab too, speeds of over 300 Gbps have been demonstrated.

Apples : Apples please. Optical fibre is the most fragile communication technology in the world. It's made of glass. The only reason it is "reliable" is because of the lengths taken to protect that optic fibre: kevlar shielding (protect from rodents: most of the time), underground rodent proof ducts, reinforcing to protect air hung fibre runs and so on. BTW commercial networks != household networks.

Each technology has it's Pros and Cons... don't fall into the trap that optical fibre is bulletproof... and dial before you dig.

Let's start building with what we've got available today. If something better and cheaper comes along later, swell, we can stop rolling out fibre and switch the rest of the roll-out to that technology. But what if it doesn't - we do nothing for 10 years while the copper network is completely run-down and dysfunctional and then we make a decision to proceed?

Sure, so how do we proceed with that rollout? Roll fibre out, suburb by suburb, at $5,000 per connection only to realise 50% of the people are using the connection, and the NBN Co isn't profitable, so they stop the roll outs to subsequent suburbs creating a service gap?

Or do they roll out fibre closer to the homes (gotta roll it out in that direction anyway) via FTTN, immediately boost services with a better network (can't compare current performance of copper to a FTTN model), then allow the consumers to decide what level of service they want: utilise the FTTN with copper last-mile*, forego a fixed-line and stick to wireless-only, pay for a last mile FTTP connection if they seek the luxury**.

* where it already exists. Greenfield sites to have fibre rolled out anyway.
** Like Foxtel, 100Mbps connections (to service TV "needs") are a luxury item and should be categorised as such.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Turnbull and Abbott have made a promise. They have to deliver. That is likely to mean that Telstra will take advantage of that in the negotiations, like China will with the 12 month timeframe Abbott put on the "trade agreement"....

It doesn't matter what Turnbull and Abbott have promised, even by bending over an taking it from Telstra any agreement most likely can not be ratified by the Telstra shareholders till the Telstra AGM late next year.

The only way they have a chance of even remotely getting close to what they have promised is if they keep running the rollout of FTTP as planned by Labor until they can being the rollout of FTTN, this includes continuing the ramp up and continuing rolling out FTTP through the FTTN trials.

It is not physically possible to do the amount of connections they will have to be able to do in the time they have to do it, what they need to do is more connections per day from now until the end of 2016 than NBNco had planned at the height of the FTTP rollout. Even if you take out the 30% that happen to be in HFC area (not that all 30% actually have access to it)

 

[noddy]

I see you're not pushing the DIDO bullshit any more Scott.

Should there not be L between the I & the second D?

 

[Admiral Byng]

Honestly, what is your point here? To discount technical advances until they're commercialised? So tell me again why households require 100Mbps connections? Why has UHDTV been used as a justification since 2006, then spent 7 years in development before becoming commercially available this year in 2013.

Why, LTE was first proposed in 2004 (NTT DoCoMo), first launched in 2009 (TeliaSoneria) and by 2013 has become mainstream. Given the huge global demand for wireless services, these developing technologies will see the light of day before the NBN is even completed in 2021 (if on time).


Apples : Apples please. Optical fibre is the most fragile communication technology in the world. It's made of glass. The only reason it is "reliable" is because of the lengths taken to protect that optic fibre: kevlar shielding (protect from rodents: most of the time), underground rodent proof ducts, reinforcing to protect air hung fibre runs and so on. BTW commercial networks != household networks.

Each technology has it's Pros and Cons... don't fall into the trap that optical fibre is bulletproof... and dial before you dig.



Sure, so how do we proceed with that rollout? Roll fibre out, suburb by suburb, at $5,000 per connection only to realise 50% of the people are using the connection, and the NBN Co isn't profitable, so they stop the roll outs to subsequent suburbs creating a service gap?

Or do they roll out fibre closer to the homes (gotta roll it out in that direction anyway) via FTTN, immediately boost services with a better network (can't compare current performance of copper to a FTTN model), then allow the consumers to decide what level of service they want: utilise the FTTN with copper last-mile*, forego a fixed-line and stick to wireless-only, pay for a last mile FTTP connection if they seek the luxury**.

* where it already exists. Greenfield sites to have fibre rolled out anyway.
** Like Foxtel, 100Mbps connections (to service TV "needs") are a luxury item and should be categorised as such.

Typical short-term thinking.

The problem is that what we have now, ADSL 2 and ADSL are rapidly approaching obsolescence. They need to be replaced with something better. It will take 5-8 years to fully implement a replacement, so we have to start now. It's a question of what technology is available now, and what represents best value for money in the long term. The only realistic options available today are FTTP or FTTN. Anything else is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. Future wireless technology doesn't enter into it as an option. Doing nothing and waiting for technology to be developed is not an option - as often as not proposed technology doesn't materialise in the way it was expected. The problem exists today, and needs a solution today, using what's available today.

 

[clogged]

Should there not be L between the I & the second D?

Possibly. For it to work as advertised you're going to have to build a network of n APs where n is the number devices, and each will have to have a signal power equivalent to what you would need to get the maximum channel capacity for a single device. This is the important equation.

Where B is analogue bandwidth, S is signal power and N is noise. All DIDO does it increase the signal power of the entire network by a factor of n, with a centralised server processing the locations of each device in real time in order to mitigate the effects of the interference from each AP. You can only imagine that as n gets very large how much the complexity increases as well as the power requirements.

There's nothing in it that is revolutionary aside from whatever processing algorithms they have in background, which may indeed be quite clever, but don't do anything at all in the way of beating the limits on channel capacity.

So yeah, anyone touting this is basically waving one big rubber dildo in the air.

 

[yibbida]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...urges-rethink-of-nbn-plan-20131106-2x1je.html

Software giant Microsoft says the Abbott government should reconsider its national broadband network (NBN) policy.

The former Labor government's fibre-to-the-home plan is superior to the coalition's cheaper policy of running optical fibres to street exchanges, Microsoft Australia managing director Pip Marlow says.
Microsoft argues that a fibre-to-the home NBN would deliver faster speeds than the coalition's hybrid optical fibre and copper cable program.

"Ultimately, if you don't get fibre to the home, the biggest impact really is the upload speeds," she told AAP at a Committee for Economic Development of Australia event.

 

[Pie eyed]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...urges-rethink-of-nbn-plan-20131106-2x1je.html

That is the first valid argument against Labors original NBN plans.
If Microscourge think it's a good idea, it needs to be seriously investigated to find the flaws in it.

 

[Lester Burnham]

The laws of physics will still be the same in 20 years as what they are today.

But not all laws of physics are yet known. There are known unknowns, such as whether quantum effects will allow superluminal communications. Then there are unknown unknowns. For example, Isaac Newton, a genius in his time, could not have had any idea of the effects of relativity that our GPS devices need to allow for.

 

[Lester Burnham]

The former Labor government's fibre-to-the-home plan is superior to the coalition's cheaper policy of running optical fibres to street exchanges, Microsoft Australia managing director Pip Marlow says.

Microsoft argues that a fibre-to-the home NBN would deliver faster speeds than the coalition's hybrid optical fibre and copper cable program.

Gee thanks for that advice Pip. What's your next speech? HSVs are faster than Holdens, so the government should give everyone a free HSV.

 

[clogged]

But not all laws of physics are yet known. There are known unknowns, such as whether quantum effects will allow superluminal communications. Then there are unknown unknowns. For example, Isaac Newton, a genius in his time, could not have had any idea of the effects of relativity that our GPS devices need to allow for.

It's taken 100 years for photonics to reach a point where they have real world, consumer level applications, how long until you think these known and unknown unknowns might take until they reach the same?

By your way of thinking, building rail in the 1850s was a waste of time.

 

[Admiral Byng]

But not all laws of physics are yet known. There are known unknowns, such as whether quantum effects will allow superluminal communications. Then there are unknown unknowns. For example, Isaac Newton, a genius in his time, could not have had any idea of the effects of relativity that our GPS devices need to allow for.

You miss the point. We need a replacement for ADSL because copper is reaching the limits of the laws of physics. The only way to improve it is to reduce the amount of copper in the system, or replace it entirely with something else. But we are building the replacement today, using today's technology. It will take years to complete roll-out regardless of whether we adopt the ALP plan or the Turnbull plan. There is no valid argument for postponing it to wait on some radical technology that either doesn't exist yet, defies the laws of physics, or relies on some as yet undiscovered law of physics.

 

[Lester Burnham]

It's taken 100 years for photonics to reach a point where they have real world, consumer level applications, how long until you think these known and unknown unknowns might take until they reach the same?

It is impossible to predict timescales.

By your way of thinking, building rail in the 1850s was a waste of time.

Analogies can get a bit tortured but I'll go with your flow. In hindsight, building railways was good for the nation but the government didn't build a rail line to everybody's house. Which was a good thing because the unknown unknown of the motor car came along and rendered such a requirement obsolete.

 

[Lester Burnham]

You miss the point. We need a replacement for ADSL because copper is reaching the limits of the laws of physics. The only way to improve it is to reduce the amount of copper in the system, or replace it entirely with something else.

VDSL2 uses copper and does not defy any laws of physics that I am aware of.

It will take years to complete roll-out regardless of whether we adopt the ALP plan or the Turnbull plan. There is no valid argument for postponing it to wait on some radical technology that either doesn't exist yet, defies the laws of physics, or relies on some as yet undiscovered law of physics.

I can't claim there is some new revolutionary technology round the corner. It's impossible to predict. I was just addressing your point about our knowledge of the laws of physics. But there have been a couple of generations of mobile technology in the time that NBN has basically gone nowhere - 2% of households subscribed is it?

I think most arguments against Turnbull's plan overlook the quite large number of FTTP connections. It still remains to be seen how the Libs will proceed but a more flexible approach makes more sense than Conroy's no VDSL whatsoever.

 

[greennick]

The conservatives are arguing to keep copper.

They are happy to pay $30 Billion for 1Mbps speed increase.

They don't believe science that's why the laws of physics don't apply.

It is almost as stupid as someone comparing a minimum speed to a maximum speed.

 

[greennick]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...urges-rethink-of-nbn-plan-20131106-2x1je.html

Of course it will deliver faster speeds, that isn't being argued. The current discussion is about getting an actual cost benefit completed to determine whether it is worthwhile spending the extra money to get said faster speeds, along the way calculating what those extra costs are.

Though, it is nice of Microsoft to step in to the debate. Despite the fact they pay very little tax here and make an already accepted argument for the model that costs the taxpayer more and benefits them.

Sure FTTP may end up being the best model, but they're not really adding to the debate in any meaningful way.

 

[Admiral Byng]

VDSL2 uses copper and does not defy any laws of physics that I am aware of.





I can't claim there is some new revolutionary technology round the corner. It's impossible to predict. I was just addressing your point about our knowledge of the laws of physics. But there have been a couple of generations of mobile technology in the time that NBN has basically gone nowhere - 2% of households subscribed is it?

I think most arguments against Turnbull's plan overlook the quite large number of FTTP connections. It still remains to be seen how the Libs will proceed but a more flexible approach makes more sense than Conroy's no VDSL whatsoever.

That's more a legal question than a technological one. Telstra (under the previous administration) blocked Conroy from using any of their copper, as they were legally entitled to do. This is what drove the decision to go for a complete replacement of copper with fibre. Telstra (under new administration) eventually saw the light and agreed to a compromise of leasing their cable ducts and migrating all of their customers onto the NBN as it was rolled out. Optus also agreed to a migration. Your 2% households subscribed as at today is a nonsense argument - there was an agreement (still is until it is re-negotiated) from the two biggest telcos in the country to migrate all of their customers onto NBN. Since NBN is a wholesale model, it's up to the telcos to decide on behalf of their customers what technology they use to deliver the service. The numbers that would migrate to NBN as it rolled out were guaranteed. It was always just a question of time as to when the service was rolled out.