Opinion Naughton 2021: Forward or Defence?

F or D?

  • Forward

    Votes: 40 55.6%
  • Defender

    Votes: 29 40.3%
  • Wing

    Votes: 3 4.2%

  • Total voters
    72

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doggies ftw

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This video represents that he should be played at CHF. Between the arcs. This is his spot.

I'm not asking to stick him in the square. He's a genuine CHF.
Yeah I think that too, honestly he’s not far off being the being the best genuine, traditional CHF in the league right now. Then at times I see what he does inside 50 and I want to chain him to the forward 50 and just clear everyone else out. But I was disappointed he didn’t spend more time between the arcs this year, I thought that would be the idea with Bruce at FF.

Some of the quarters or half quarters he’s put on when he just hits that red hot patch are incredible. And that’s as a raw 19yo whose never played forward before. If he can turn those patches to games there is not a single player in the comp who will be close to matching him as a player. Not one. And he’s got the drive and swagger to do that, you just don’t send him back.

Most teams have a defender who can do close to what he can do down there. No team has a forward who will be able to do what he does.
 

doggies ftw

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Why is it Gardiner + Keath and not Cordy + Keath? For the majority of the season it was Keath + Cordy as the defensive duo. Gardiner came in and shunted out defenders and pushed them up field. Like Crozier for example.
This, people forget how good our backline was for most of the year. Our midfield and forward line was rubbish and the backline was the only thing that kept us competitive. Cordy and Keath were working great with Croz/Williams. Look ideally we find someone else to let Cordy play more as a hybrid and take some more pressure off Keath but fu** they don’t have to be a superstar. Throw Astbury, Dougal Howard, Clurey, May. I could name 50 more, they’re not that hard to get. Next to Keath and Cordy and our backline is good.
 

Dogsman16

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Yeah I think that too, honestly he’s not far off being the being the best genuine, traditional CHF in the league right now. Then at times I see what he does inside 50 and I want to chain him to the forward 50 and just clear everyone else out. But I was disappointed he didn’t spend more time between the arcs this year, I thought that would be the idea with Bruce at FF.

Some of the quarters or half quarters he’s put on when he just hits that red hot patch are incredible. And that’s as a raw 19yo whose never played forward before. If he can turn those patches to games there is not a single player in the comp who will be close to matching him as a player. Not one. And he’s got the drive and swagger to do that, you just don’t send him back.

Most teams have a defender who can do close to what he can do down there. No team has a forward who will be able to do what he does.
Lets say you want to use him as your intercepting defender (because I know thats what his "put him in defence supporters" want). I crunched the numbers a while back and found a common theme.

Elite/better intercepting defenders can be found anywhere in the 2nd round onwards in drafts.

McGovern, Sicily, Ridley, Grimes, Andrews, Doedee (pick 17 but a massive shock at that position), Howe, Easton Wood (not so much now but for a while he was), Liam Jones, Charlie Ballard etc.

I could go on. Intercept defenders (and very good ones) can be found anywhere in the draft. CHF's like Naughton cannot. Its that simple.

Alex Keath was a category B rookie. And he's developed into a very handy player.
 

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doggies ftw

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Lets say you want to use him as your intercepting defender (because I know thats what his "put him in defence supporters" want. I crunched the numbers a while back and found a common theme.

Elite/better intercepting defenders can be found anywhere in the 2nd round onwards in drafts.

McGovern, Sicily, Ridley, Grimes, Andrews, Doedee (pick 17 but a massive shock at that position), Howe, Easton Wood (not so much now but for a while he was), Liam Jones, Charlie Ballard etc.

I could go on. Intercept defenders (and very good ones) can be found anywhere in the draft. CHF's like Naughton cannot. Its that simple.

Alex Keath was a category B rookie. And he's developed into a very handy player.
Hell we’ve possibly got a very good one on our list in Lewy Young
 

Dogsman16

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This, people forget how good our backline was for most of the year. Our midfield and forward line was rubbish and the backline was the only thing that kept us competitive. Cordy and Keath were working great with Croz/Williams. Look ideally we find someone else to let Cordy play more as a hybrid and take some more pressure off Keath but fu** they don’t have to be a superstar. Throw Astbury, Dougal Howard, Clurey, May. I could name 50 more, they’re not that hard to get. Next to Keath and Cordy and our backline is good.
In my opinion Cordy going down with a torn pec and then coming back in without directly placing a Key defender was a massive mistake.

Gardiner shouldn't have been in the team for structural purposes. We played 3 KPD's on the weekend and they didn't do ****. Whats the point in playing 3 tall defenders if they aren't going to the job.

Meanwhile Naughton has surgery 10 days prior and still almost pulls us over the line in that last qtr.
 

Virgin Dog

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Why is it Gardiner + Keath and not Cordy + Keath? For the majority of the season it was Keath + Cordy as the defensive duo. Gardiner came in and shunted out defenders and pushed them up field. Like Crozier for example.
Because Cordy doesn't handle the big men. He's a 3rd tall
 

Dogsman16

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Because Cordy doesn't handle the big men. He's a 3rd tall
Does Gardiner handle the big men? If we wanted someone to handle the gorilla talls we may have as well gone with Trengrove.

Not to mention for a genuine period of time this season it was Keath and Cordy as the 2 talls down back. We only added the third due to gardiner which imo ruined the whole setup of our defence (Crozier going forward etc).

I want someone to try and find the stat (I'll continue to look for it as well). Theres a very real scenario that we are close to last in terms of centre clearance differential. I swear you make Naughton, Bruce, Schache (whomever you want) look better in the forward line, if we had first use out of the centre when there genuine one on ones in forward 50.

Finding a genuine number one ruck will be like a domino effect for our team. Naughton/Bruce whomever being the players rewarded for that.
 
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doggies ftw

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In my opinion Cordy going down with a torn pec and then coming back in without directly placing a Key defender was a massive mistake.

Gardiner shouldn't have been in the team for structural purposes. We played 3 KPD's on the weekend and they didn't do ****. Whats the point in playing 3 tall defenders if they aren't going to the job.

Meanwhile Naughton has surgery 10 days prior and still almost pulls us over the line in that last qtr.
Couldn’t have said this more over the last few weeks! Throw in Wood and it was just crazy to completely dampen our biggest and probably only strength all year.
 

Dogsman16

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Couldn’t have said this more over the last few weeks! Throw in Wood and it was just crazy to completely dampen our biggest and probably only strength all year.
How quickly people have forgotten we actually already have a number of good interceptors. Blame Bev for taking our best one out of there in Crozier.
 

doggies ftw

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Does Gardiner handle the big men? If we wanted someone to handle the gorilla talls we may have as well gone with Trengrove.

Not to mention for a genuine period of time this season it was Keath and Cordy as the 2 talls down back. We only added the third due to gardiner which imo ruined the whole setup of our defence (Crozier going forward etc).

I want someone to try and find the stat (I'll continue to look for it as well). Theres a very real scenario that we are close to last in terms of centre clearance differential. I swear you make Naughton, Bruce, Schache (whomever you want) look better in the forward line, if we had first use out of the centre when there genuine one on ones in forward 50.

Finding a genuine number one ruck will be like a domino effect for our team. Naughton/Bruce whomever being the players rewarded for that.
Between rounds 1-10 with just Cordy and Keath a key forward kicked more than 2 goals on us once. And it was 3 against Carlton there was nothing our backline could do in that game it was a disaster. Round 11 Hipwood kicked 5 on Gardener. Then not again til 3 were kicked on us by Gunstan in Round 17.
 

BEaston

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His goal kicking has also improved this year. 70% goal efficiency.

32goals, 27 Behinds in 2019. If he kicked at 70% in 2019 he kicks 41 goals. And we wouldn't be having this debate.
He's an average kick so I only think this will regress to the mean. Also, fairly small sample size.

Wouldn't be banking on that sticking.
 

Dogsman16

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Between rounds 1-10 with just Cordy and Keath a key forward kicked more than 2 goals on us once. And it was 3 against Carlton there was nothing our backline could do in that game it was a disaster. Round 11 Hipwood kicked 5 on Gardener. Then not again til 3 were kicked on us by Gunstan in Round 17.
Heres also another fun fact.

Bev in finals previously has actually gone with the 2 tall defenders only. 2016 was such an occasion when Hamling and Morris were the only 2 talls chosen for our elim vs west coast and our semi vs hawthorn.

Only a suckling injury resulted in Roberts playing the prelim and the grandy.

And he also played 2 rucks. It's as if he forgot what made us successful.
 

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doggies ftw

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He's an average kick so I only think this will regress to the mean. Also, fairly small sample size.

Wouldn't be banking on that sticking.
Is he really an average kick though? I think he was very shaky at first but it didn’t take long before he turned that around. Still prone to the odd howler which sticks in the memory and makes it seem worse than it is. Would back him over Bruce from anywhere inside 50 10 times out of 10. These days I’d probably back him over most of our forwards or mids except for Wally. Probably says more about them than him though.
 

Virgin Dog

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Does Gardiner handle the big men? If we wanted someone to handle the gorilla talls we may have as well gone with Trengrove.

Not to mention for a genuine period of time this season it was Keath and Cordy as the 2 talls down back. We only added the third due to gardiner which imo ruined the whole setup of our defence (Crozier going forward etc).

I want someone to try and find the stat (I'll continue to look for it as well). Theres a very real scenario that we are close to last in terms of centre clearance differential. I swear you make Naughton, Bruce, Schache (whomever you want) look better in the forward line, if we had first use out of the centre when there genuine one on ones in forward 50.

Finding a genuine number one ruck will be like a domino effect for our team. Naughton/Bruce whomever being the players rewarded for that.
No, Gardner doesn't adequately handle the big men, which is why I want Naughton back
 

Dogsman16

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He's an average kick so I only think this will regress to the mean. Also, fairly small sample size.

Wouldn't be banking on that sticking.
I think he's an awkward ball drop but still a pretty decent kick.

Also if you thought he was an average kick would you play him in the backline? Need your best users in the back half.
 

BEaston

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For all his amazing hot stints here and there playing forward, he could be legit dominating all game, every game as a backman.

He's just more natural there. Most of the time he's pretty clueless with forward craft but just wins out due to his natural 1v1 ability.

Also, with Bruce in the team playing as the one flying for high balls, we can pair him with a lead up option (Schache/English/Brown/Gunston/whoever). It's more balanced.

Bruce and Naughton just don't work together and Bruce defending is a horrible idea IMO.
 

Dogsman16

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For all his amazing hot stints here and there playing forward, he could be legit dominating all game, every game as a backman.

He's just more natural there. Most of the time he's pretty clueless with forward craft but just wins out due to his natural 1v1 ability.

Also, with Bruce in the team playing as the one flying for high balls, we can pair him with a lead up option (Schache/English/Brown/Gunston/whoever). It's more balanced.

Bruce and Naughton just don't work together and Bruce defending is a horrible idea IMO.
Unless our midfield regains ascendancy of centre and around the ground clearances, its my firm belief that the intercepting defender (whomever that may be) is often the weakest link in defensive 50.

I feel it could go the other way. Naughton would be too focused on trying to peel off his man and due to our differential in centre clearances he would be a liability.

This happens to McGovern quite a bit. Often teams try and attack through McGoverns man. Natanui and the eagles mids actually help McGovern play a more carefree role. Naughton wouldn't be allowed to do the same. Not when English is getting destroyed in Hitouts to advantage and our mids are constantly on the back foot.
 

BEaston

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I think he's an awkward ball drop but still a pretty decent kick.

Also if you thought he was an average kick would you play him in the backline? Need your best users in the back half.
You're right, it's the only negative to sending him back.
But, he's no worse than whoever he would replace so it's still +value overall
 

doggies ftw

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It’s not based on anything really and very subjective. But let’s say on an average day out Naughty creates 5-6 goals. 1-2goals kicked directly, 2-3 from opportunities he creates by not being outmarked ever, and probably 1-2 by taking contested marks on the wing and playing on quickly which he loves to do. On a good day probably 7-8 or even more when he kicks a bag himself. How many does he stop in defense?
 

Dogsman16

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It’s not based on anything really and very subjective. But let’s say on an average day out Naughty creates 5-6 goals. 1-2goals kicked directly, 2-3 from opportunities he creates by not being outmarked ever, and probably 1-2 by taking contested marks on the wing and playing on quickly which he loves to do. On a good day probably 7-8 or even more when he kicks a bag himself. How many does he stop in defense?
Might even add that Naughtons defensive pressure as a key forward is absolutely elite. And we have the bare minimum of players capable of defensive pressure.
 

BEaston

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Unless our midfield regains ascendancy of centre and around the ground clearances, its my firm belief that the intercepting defender (whomever that may be) is often the weakest link in defensive 50.

I feel it could go the other way. Naughton would be too focused on trying to peel off his man and due to our differential in centre clearances he would be a liability.

This happens to McGovern quite a bit. Often teams try and attack through McGoverns man.
Don't think so at all. We could structure him on the 3rd tall if we wanted minimising that risk and just tell Cordy to wrap his man up to allow Naughton to peel easier.

If he plays as 2nd tall and they want to play through his man, I'm backing him every day of the week to win that contest.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying
 

doggies ftw

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Might even add that Naughtons defensive pressure as a key forward is absolutely elite. And we have the bare minimum of players capable of defensive pressure.
Yep absolutely, he makes things happen at ground level when he’s around the ball up forward. Also if he had a decent foil you could add the 1-2 goals theyd kick because he has such a presence which draws the focus of the whole backline.
 

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