Opinion Naughton 2021: Forward or Defence?

F or D?

  • Forward

    Votes: 32 54.2%
  • Defender

    Votes: 25 42.4%
  • Wing

    Votes: 2 3.4%

  • Total voters
    59

Remove this Banner Ad

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,438
6,948
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It’s not based on anything really and very subjective. But let’s say on an average day out Naughty creates 5-6 goals. 1-2goals kicked directly, 2-3 from opportunities he creates by not being outmarked ever, and probably 1-2 by taking contested marks on the wing and playing on quickly which he loves to do. On a good day probably 7-8 or even more when he kicks a bag himself. How many does he stop in defense?
Think you're overstating his impact massively.
He had over 10 possies only 3 times this season. He had 5 games of 5 or less possies. It's a poor output. I know he was injured this year which didn't help.

It's also about the structure of our forward line, Bruce and him just don't work.
 

Dogsman16

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 19, 2012
10,620
11,509
Minas Morgul
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Don't think so at all. We could structure him on the 3rd tall if we wanted minimising that risk and just tell Cordy to wrap his man up to allow Naughton to peel easier.

If he plays as 2nd tall and they want to play through his man, I'm backing him every day of the week to win that contest.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying
A contributing factor as to why I don't like Naught back is that as mentioned previously I hate the 3 tall defensive setup. Especially when we have a good number of mid sized defenders (Crozier/Wood/Williams) and English can push back and intercept. It's not required. Also its pushing out another defender (which happens to be Crozier currently).

So if Naughton was to play back it would be in a 2 man defence. I can't really see Cordy nor Keath playing in the 2s for any duration of time.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Dogsman16

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 19, 2012
10,620
11,509
Minas Morgul
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Think you're overstating his impact massively.
He had over 10 possies only 3 times this season. He had 5 games of 5 or less possies. It's a poor output. I know he was injured this year which didn't help.

It's also about the structure of our forward line, Bruce and him just don't work.
Bruce goes then. And by goes either Bruce works to get in this team as a defender or plays 2s.

I think its hard to say he had 5 games of 5 or less possies when he was ruled out at half time in one game and qtr time in another. Wasn't as if he played 5 full games. Throw in the collingwood round 1 game when nobody in forward 50 touched it that day.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,438
6,948
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
A contributing factor as to why I don't like Naught back is that as mentioned previously I hate the 3 tall defensive setup. Especially when we have a good number of mid sized defenders (Crozier/Wood/Williams) and English can push back and intercept. It's not required. Also its pushing out another defender (which happens to be Crozier currently).

So if Naughton was to play back it would be in a 2 man defence. I can't really see Cordy nor Keath playing in the 2s for any duration of time.
2 man defence is OK but I see Wood and Cordy playing a similar role so I'm OK with either of them out. I'd prefer Wood out though

Naughton Keath Cordy Crozier Williams Daniel Duryea

JJ to the wing
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
15,668
13,108
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Think you're overstating his impact massively.
He had over 10 possies only 3 times this season. He had 5 games of 5 or less possies. It's a poor output. I know he was injured this year which didn't help.

It's also about the structure of our forward line, Bruce and him just don't work.
I agree Bruce and him don’t work, I think Bruce was a massive hinderance to his game this year. Yeah I’m not basing much off this year he had no preseason he has multiple injuries week to week, he had Bruce taking away from his natural game, shorter quarters don’t help a player like him who still impacts in patches rather than consistently. I’m judging him on his full season as a forward last year.

I wouldnt be moving Naughty to accomodate Bruce. Bruce changes his game to accomodate Naughty or he plays twos simply. You want a forward line of Bruce and Gowers? Bruce/Schache is still poor and Bev probably wouldn’t play that anyway. Next year we got JUH so we’ll send him the best defender to smash him and Bruce can still get in his way anyway.
 

Dogsman16

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 19, 2012
10,620
11,509
Minas Morgul
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
2 man defence is OK but I see Wood and Cordy playing a similar role so I'm OK with either of them out. I'd prefer Wood out though

Naughton Keath Cordy Crozier Williams Daniel Duryea

JJ to the wing
Woods contracted for another 2 years. I don't particularly see Wood not playing ones.

If i wanted 3 KPD's I'd like a genuine shutdown KPD. Like Payne from the lions. And Keath be allowed to play the interceptor role. Cordy as 3rd.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,438
6,948
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Bruce goes then. And by goes either Bruce works to get in this team as a defender or plays 2s.

I think its hard to say he had 5 games of 5 or less possies when he was ruled out at half time in one game and qtr time in another. Wasn't as if he played 5 full games. Throw in the collingwood round 1 game when nobody in forward 50 touched it that day.
Meanwhile we have Gardner or Cordy playing as the 2nd tall (do not want) and a natural forward in Schache doing nothing in the 2s

The decision is made even easier if we get a no1 ruck like Goldy (which pushes English forward more) or another tall forward option.
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
15,668
13,108
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
2 man defence is OK but I see Wood and Cordy playing a similar role so I'm OK with either of them out. I'd prefer Wood out though

Naughton Keath Cordy Crozier Williams Daniel Duryea

JJ to the wing
I don’t doubt that’s a very strong backline. What’s forward though?
 

Dogsman16

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 19, 2012
10,620
11,509
Minas Morgul
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Meanwhile we have Gardner or Cordy playing as the 2nd tall (do not want) and a natural forward in Schache doing nothing in the 2s

The decision is made even easier if we get a no1 ruck like Goldy (which pushes English forward more) or another tall forward option.
I do agree that if a first ruck was brought in so English played 70% forward there would be "more" merit to Naught playing back. But I'd still play Naught forward. Another major factor is making sure we don't burden JUH with too much responsibility. I'd like a good marking player drawing attention away JUH.

Right now Bruce hasn't demonstrated he can do that. Naught has. And I do want 3 talls in the forward line selected (unless its wet), I'd be resting JUH/Bruce for wet weather games.

Naught had 4 surgeries in 12 months. He's going to offer way more next season.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,438
6,948
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I agree Bruce and him don’t work, I think Bruce was a massive hinderance to his game this year. Yeah I’m not basing much off this year he had no preseason he has multiple injuries week to week, he had Bruce taking away from his natural game, shorter quarters don’t help a player like him who still impacts in patches rather than consistently. I’m judging him on his full season as a forward last year.

I wouldnt be moving Naughty to accomodate Bruce. Bruce changes his game to accomodate Naughty or he plays twos simply. You want a forward line of Bruce and Gowers? Bruce/Schache is still poor and Bev probably wouldn’t play that anyway. Next year we got JUH so we’ll send him the best defender to smash him and Bruce can still get in his way anyway.
I don’t doubt that’s a very strong backline. What’s forward though?
I think Bruce and Schache have shown they can play at the level. I'm backing Bruce in to regain his 2019 form. It does depend on what happens with the ruck situation though but lets say worst case; I still think Bruce/Schache/JUH can be a OK combo. OK it's not the best but I don't think it performs worse than our current setup. Shache/Bruce is a much better pairing.

Look if we got a good no1 KPD somehow then OK leave him forward, but I think it's more likely we'll bring in a ruck or forward though.

Overall though, I just think his personal output for the team could be worth a shitload more playing his natural position.
Also I think it helps Keath immensely and also helps Bruce.
 

Dogsman16

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 19, 2012
10,620
11,509
Minas Morgul
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I don't think this is a 2021 decision. Personally I think there is a very high chance that JUH doesn't have the fitness required to play that many games. And that goes for all the draftees unable to play this year. It's a massive unknown.

With the VFL competition also being a major unknown (and pre-season games for that matter), he may not get the opportunity to build his fitness in 2021.

I'd prefer to be cautious with JUH. And that include playing Naught forward to give him less attention. Which is nearly all focused on aaron and what he can do.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
15,668
13,108
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I think Bruce and Schache have shown they can play at the level. I'm backing Bruce in to regain his 2019 form. It does depend on what happens with the ruck situation though but lets say worst case; I still think Bruce/Schache/JUH can be a OK combo. OK it's not the best but I don't think it performs worse than our current setup. Shache/Bruce is a much better pairing.

Look if we got a good no1 KPD somehow then OK leave him forward, but I think it's more likely we'll bring in a ruck or forward though.

Overall though, I just think his personal output for the team could be worth a shitload more playing his natural position.
Also I think it helps Keath immensely and also helps Bruce.
We had the opportunity to play Bruce/Schache this year with Naughty out and we didn’t take it unfortunately. Well we did one week and it worked great. I agree though if Bruce got back some form that could partnership could be okay. It doesn’t exactly scream premiership though. Personally I think with a bit of tinkering a Keath/Cordy Naughty/Schache team could win a flag. With everything the same but Keath/Naughty Bruce/Schache I don’t think we could. Plus if we’re bringing in someone from outside the list it’s much much much easier to find a quality defender.
 

whyBulldogs

Premium Platinum
Oct 5, 2020
57
53
North West
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
FC Barcelona
interesting.....

IMO, it'd depend on so many "if" scenarios
If we get KPD - Naugton forward
If we get KPF - Naughton defence. I think he's the first to throw at the back. He has agility & speed that Bruce lack. The question's that whether he's strong enough for 1on1 vs monster KPF
If neither, Naughton defence. Bruce+Schache+JUH forward. If Bruce still terribly out of form, then swap

What will happen:
Bevo'll keep him forward. Adding JUH to both + better off season will do.

Hoping, trade:
1. Ruck
2. Tall muscle KPD
3. Small forward

Then on paper we're solid to compete for the holy grail next year. But footy play on grass, not on paper
 

lachy

Premiership Player
Jul 5, 2004
3,490
3,261
Western
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Bulldogs
Forward. If we can learn anything from opposition teams Melbourne loaded up with May and Lever being high priced recruits. Their backline was fine this year, but with McDonald going down they had know one dangerous up forward.

Naughts show in the last quarter one he got confidence in his body why he is gold in the forward line
 

Whoyagot

Team Captain
Sep 18, 2018
554
835
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
In hindsight, I think we recruited Bruce as the big bear in the square to free up Naughton where I think what we really needed was the opposite. Naughton plays best with a player who can run and use their smarts forward of the ball to create dummy leads then get on their bike and create some one on one opportunities. This gives him more space to contest in the air and demand the ball up on the wings and in the forward 50.

Last year it was Schache that provided that space. The problem was that Schache had zero contested game at all and turned invisible when the heat was on. If Bruce can trim down he can definitely be that player with the upside of actually handling himself in a marking contest. As many on here have said, this actually suits Bruce's natural game more then a pack marker. Would like to see both Naughton and Bruce given a full preseason together to learn how to play this way.

Also, watching Knightmare's analysis of Ugle-Hagan and also reading an article earlier this year about the excitement amongst the recruiting staff of a Naughton / JUH forward line in the next four years is so exciting. It'll take some time for JUH to find his feet at the level but just imagine prime Naughton hitting up the wings as a true CHF. Taking grab after grab and rolling round to get it inside 50 with prime JUH one-out (who according to Knightmare will be the most dangerous inside 50 player in the league). The dogs are definitely playing the long game with our forward talent but the payoff in a few years will be huge!
 

Snarls Barkley

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 7, 2012
6,686
7,652
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
San Antonio, West Ham, Renegades
I think Naughton will end up as a defender. Was probably a better than any 18yo defender in recent years and watching Andrews, Moore and Weitering dominate down back this year as young key defenders, I think we would have someone in that mould with Naughton.

I’m not quite there with him as a forward. Seems to be extraordinary or very quiet with very little in between, which is exactly as you’d expect from a young player playing a new position with such a huge burden and think we need to give him a little more time to learn the position and gain more consistency. When he has been on he is close to unstoppable.

My philosophy is that I’d rather a great key forward over a great key defender but I’d rather a great key defender than a good key forward. I saw enough in that first season that he’ll be a great key defender and as we’ve seen with Hurley and Moore I don’t think spending a couple of seasons forward will harm his development as a defender. I would play him forward in 2021 and reassess in 2022. Obviously it will depend on who we bring in during the trade period.
 

cherrypie

Team Captain
Oct 28, 2017
405
1,389
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I think he is better as a defender but is better for our side used as a forward.

Our backline is pretty good aside from being just one key short. Our forward line on the other hand is a wasteland without him.

Going forth, I think it will be much easier for us to find another good tall defender than a key forward to play with JUH.

Even just looking at North, Walker was a cheap pickup and isn't incredible but could have been excellent for us to play back with Keath. You very rarely find available tall forwards who can do that
 

The Slitherin' Snake

Club Legend
Apr 8, 2005
1,667
1,500
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It would be worth considering what does the opposition least want you to do. I reckon every opponent would be more worried about Naughton forward than back because he can make something from nothing, be a bail out target between the 50s and potentially break a game open
 

scooter600x

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 14, 2003
8,572
1,363
Behind the goals, Geelong
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It would be worth considering what does the opposition least want you to do. I reckon every opponent would be more worried about Naughton forward than back because he can make something from nothing, be a bail out target between the 50s and potentially break a game open
That's a good post, every opponent would be worried about Naughton forward.

And frustrated as hell by him playing back.
 

cecil

Club Legend
Feb 28, 2010
1,642
1,754
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
In hindsight, I think we recruited Bruce as the big bear in the square to free up Naughton where I think what we really needed was the opposite. Naughton plays best with a player who can run and use their smarts forward of the ball to create dummy leads then get on their bike and create some one on one opportunities. This gives him more space to contest in the air and demand the ball up on the wings and in the forward 50.

Last year it was Schache that provided that space. The problem was that Schache had zero contested game at all and turned invisible when the heat was on. If Bruce can trim down he can definitely be that player with the upside of actually handling himself in a marking contest. As many on here have said, this actually suits Bruce's natural game more then a pack marker. Would like to see both Naughton and Bruce given a full preseason together to learn how to play this way.

Also, watching Knightmare's analysis of Ugle-Hagan and also reading an article earlier this year about the excitement amongst the recruiting staff of a Naughton / JUH forward line in the next four years is so exciting. It'll take some time for JUH to find his feet at the level but just imagine prime Naughton hitting up the wings as a true CHF. Taking grab after grab and rolling round to get it inside 50 with prime JUH one-out (who according to Knightmare will be the most dangerous inside 50 player in the league). The dogs are definitely playing the long game with our forward talent but the payoff in a few years will be huge!
THIS!

Bruce slims down and plays the 2nd Ruck/2nd KPF role. He's got a huge tank and while not great in the ruck can throw his weight around and won't get drubbed. Naughton plays deep and pushes up to the wings occasionally.

Our issue is then who are the other 3 forwards. VDM is the only automatic selection at the moment.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Top Bottom