Mod. Notice Negativity Towards the Club and Personal Attacks

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jathanas

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Aug 17, 2011
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Hi legends,

We want to clarify our position about the negativity that has inundated this board and the personal attacks that seem to follow as a result. The mods are posters too and we have found that this has affected our own enjoyment of our online community.

It's perfectly reasonable to criticise the club, heaven knows they've done their best to give us reasons. :) Salary cap, selection, recruiting, game plan... the list goes on. As passionate supporters we want to discuss our views which may not always be favourable.

Having said that, there are posters that will take pot-shots at the club no matter what the topic of discussion is. They disappear after a win only to show up with the same bile after a loss. They never balance that with any praise for a player or any enjoyment from seeing Collingwood do well.

That type of poster will face a different experience on this board from now on. This serves as fair notice.

We need to tackle this as a community, so it's perfectly valid for others to call this behaviour out without insulting or attacking the poster in question. This brings us to the second part of this post.

Buying into tiffs between other posters by saying "What would you expect poster X is a flog", is not on; it isn't helpful at all and just leads to further conflict.

This forum has been a part of my life since 2010 (I lurked for a year) and it has been an amazing resource. It's up to us to set the tone and the standard.

Cheers,
J for and on behalf of the mod. team

Gone Critical Anzacday Maggie5
 
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noideaatall

Cancelled
May 14, 2011
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geeveston
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I thank you for sharing your concerns, I'll try to address them.
Appreciated.

To address your first point. ....
I think you are addressing the original post rather than my point, but all good, happy to move on.

Regarding anonymity, anyone who has spent any length of time on social media soon discovers, it can be a veritable cesspool filled with comments from people who have no fear of consequence for anything reprehensible or offensive that they might post AKA keyboard warriors.
I presume my comments were not clear to you. I suggest we are all anonymous on this forum so it is irrelevant to question someone's opinion on this basis.

I can't advise you re: your exchange with Mark. If you feel he crossed a line report him.
You definitely misunderstood me on this one. I have no problem with markfs, enjoy his posts. They make me feel dumb but nothing new about that.

On your last point we don't discuss moderating decisions or sanctions. I trust that this will help you feel more comfortable. If not you always have the option of escalating this to admin.
You completely lost me here. I thought this thread was informing the great unwashed regarding moderation? If you don't discuss them why the thread?
 

Civilest

Team Captain
May 14, 2012
336
286
Melbourne
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They might have a point, except you just know that they are fake when 90% + of their posts are hyper-critical of the club, its coaches, its players or its President. Said posters seem to do just enough in terms of balancing their posts with a sprinkle of positive posts, praising players or acts of courage from the players, but such posts are usually one-liners and I suspect that this is a tactic just so they won't draw the ire of the Mods and cop a ban.
Man this is really sad. You are so confident that they are fake. You and I have NFI one way or another. You don’t know anymore than you would know what Tatts numbers are coming out next week. And to suspect some put in a sprinkling of positive stuff to cover their tracks it’s just your opinion and it’s a deluded view in my opinion.
 

noideaatall

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Having said that, there are posters that will take pot-shots at the club no matter what the topic of discussion is. They disappear after a win only to show up with the same bile after a loss. They never balance that with any praise for a player or any enjoyment from seeing Collingwood do well.

That type of poster will face a different experience on this board from now on. This serves as fair notice.

We need to tackle this as a community, so it's perfectly valid for others to call this behaviour out without insulting or attacking the poster in question. This brings us to the second part of this post.

Buying into tiffs between other posters by saying "What would you expect poster X is a flog", is not on; it isn't helpful at all and just leads to further conflict.
Just to clarify, the OP noted two different types of problematic behaviour. One will face a different experience from now on. My question was what will the other face? It is a reasonable request for clarification.

From my point of view it is the insults and personal attacks that make this board uncomfortable. I have no trouble with fellow posters berating the club: the majority of people I meet do this.
 

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Capital Magpie

Club Legend
Aug 27, 2017
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Man this is really sad. You are so confident that they are fake. You and I have NFI one way or another. You don’t know anymore than you would know what Tatts numbers are coming out next week. And to suspect some put in a sprinkling of positive stuff to cover their tracks it’s just your opinion and it’s a deluded view in my opinion.
You have your opinion on this, but I dont share it.
I can't see how its sad to suspect the worst about the motives of negative posters. Of course I don't know for sure, but its a reasonable assumption to make if the posting history is as Ive described. The Tatts numbers analogy is pretty flawed because that references a future event, but Im talking about past posting history.
 

Civilest

Team Captain
May 14, 2012
336
286
Melbourne
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You have your opinion on this, but I dont share it.
I can't see how its sad to suspect the worst about the motives of negative posters. Of course I don't know for sure, but its a reasonable assumption to make if the posting history is as Ive described. The Tatts numbers analogy is pretty flawed because that references a future event, but Im talking about past posting history.
Thanks for acknowledging that we don’t really know. It’s all just opinions that sometimes leads to a day off and false accusations of being an opposition troll in my case.
 

Capital Magpie

Club Legend
Aug 27, 2017
1,158
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Canberra, ACT
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Collingwood
Thanks for acknowledging that we don’t really know. It’s all just opinions that sometimes leads to a day off and false accusations of being an opposition troll in my case.
Yes Civilest, I acknowledge that I was too hasty in my earlier assessment of you as an opposition troll. I jumped to that conclusion because of your use of the term "Nafan" in referring to our coach. I always see red when I read that term, as it smacks of jealousy towards the club and its supporters that was rife back in the 90s.

Ive read several of your subsequent posts on this board which suggest to me that you are in fact a genuine Collingwood supporter, so I was too hasty in jumping to that conclusion. Apologies.
I still don't agree with a lot of your views on the club and the direction it needs to take to emerge from its current predicament, but its interesting engaging with posters who have different points of view.
 

Civilest

Team Captain
May 14, 2012
336
286
Melbourne
AFL Club
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Yes Civilest, I acknowledge that I was too hasty in my earlier assessment of you as an opposition troll. I jumped to that conclusion because of your use of the term "Nafan" in referring to our coach. I always see red when I read that term, as it smacks of jealousy towards the club and its supporters that was rife back in the 90s.

Ive read several of your subsequent posts on this board which suggest to me that you are in fact a genuine Collingwood supporter, so I was too hasty in jumping to that conclusion. Apologies.
I still don't agree with a lot of your views on the club and the direction it needs to take to emerge from its current predicament, but its interesting engaging with posters who have different points of view.
Thank you it says a lot that you can make that apology.
 

jathanas

Moderator
Aug 17, 2011
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Just to clarify, the OP noted two different types of problematic behaviour. One will face a different experience from now on. My question was what will the other face? It is a reasonable request for clarification.

From my point of view it is the insults and personal attacks that make this board uncomfortable. I have no trouble with fellow posters berating the club: the majority of people I meet do this.
Insults and personal attacks are unacceptable and I apologise if you've been on the receiving end.

If you experience or witness this please report the incident. Again, we're not free to discuss detail re: sanctions.
 

Capital Magpie

Club Legend
Aug 27, 2017
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Collingwood
Thanks for acknowledging that we don’t really know. It’s all just opinions that sometimes leads to a day off and false accusations of being an opposition troll in my case.
I just re-read your post it has just dawned on me that you might have copped a 24 hour ban due to your earlier interaction with me. If that did happen, I feel very remorseful about my hasty assessment of you as a poster.
 

Maggie5

Moderator
Apr 3, 2010
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Can I ask, what do the mods intend to do with those that always respond to negative posts with personal attacks on the poster? In the OP you noted they feed the problem: will they be tolerated or treated in the same way negative posters will be?
Just to clarify, the OP noted two different types of problematic behaviour. One will face a different experience from now on. My question was what will the other face? It is a reasonable request for clarification.

From my point of view it is the insults and personal attacks that make this board uncomfortable. I have no trouble with fellow posters berating the club: the majority of people I meet do this.
I think that we are in agreement (bold above) as a number of posters have expressed similar concerns with some very good posters leaving and no longer posting. It is the bold that we are asking posters to be more mindful of.

Posters who wish to express their anger (Game Day is a pretty much free for all), disappointment, frustration etc. are still able to post their views.

Compared to other club forums, I think our board is pretty good and everyone has an opportunity to have their say, not everyone will agree, some may remain silent and move on, others will disagree.
 

noideaatall

Cancelled
May 14, 2011
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Insults and personal attacks are unacceptable and I apologise if you've been on the receiving end.

If you experience or witness this please report the incident. Again, we're not free to discuss detail re: sanctions.
I appreciate the work all mods do and have done on this board. Including yourself. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond. I have to point out I began this exchange by highlighting my view that your response to a poster on this thread was a needless personal attack. Not a biggie but that is what I viewed it as and still do. Pretty obviously I think it would be a waste of time to report this and the numerous other examples that occur.

From the OP and your responses jathanas, it is clear to me the intention is to weed out negativity towards the club rather than the infighting that results from it. If the last two posts are not a demonstration of why we should have a much greater tolerance towards negative views towards the club I don't know what is.
 

jathanas

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Aug 17, 2011
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....

From the OP and your responses jathanas, it is clear to me the intention is to weed out negativity towards the club rather than the infighting that results from it. If the last two posts are not a demonstration of why we should have a much greater tolerance towards negative views towards the club I don't know what is.
I think you have it wrong on that front but won't try to shift your perspective.

Time will prove you right or wrong.
 

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Carringbush2010

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Jun 6, 2016
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The OP provides a perfect example of a troll e.g. someone with an axe to grind that appears only after a loss to vent their bile. Someone that otherwise makes no contribution.

We're not trying to gag you or anyone else. All forums have standards and rules.
Regardless, what your interpretation is of a troll will differ from another.

I never suggested you and the mods were trying to gag anyone. What I'm saying is that whether you do or don't it's inconsistent because the views are different and the rules are not absolutely clear cut. Flawed!
 

Maggie5

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Regardless, what your interpretation is of a troll will differ from another.

I never suggested you and the mods were trying to gag anyone. What I'm saying is that whether you do or don't it's inconsistent because the views are different and the rules are not absolutely clear cut. Flawed!
Do you honestly believe that there aren't posters who:

Intentionally say something annoying or offensive in order to upset someone, or to get attention or cause trouble?

That is what I think a troll is, what is your definition?
 

noideaatall

Cancelled
May 14, 2011
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Do you honestly believe that there aren't posters who:
Intentionally say something annoying or offensive in order to upset someone, or to get attention or cause trouble?
That is what I think a troll is, what is your definition?
Though I have been involved in forums since the beginning of the 90's I have never really grasped a clear distinction between a troll and someone who is flaming. Take the quote below from a current thread.
virtually every Club has wasted their time on their Coach on that metric.
Your depth of analysis is childish.
No doubt low level but I read that as a personal insult. In terms of the immediate conversation - the post/s it responded to - there was no provocation for attacking the person, not the opinion.
Is the poster a troll? I suggest it was intentional and offensive.
PS: Watch it continue, watch others get drawn in, watch the passion grow. Blocking outrageous threads or statements (largely I assume negative towards club) is hypocritical whilst allowing this low level niggle to flourish.
 

Maggie5

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Apr 3, 2010
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Though I have been involved in forums since the beginning of the 90's I have never really grasped a clear distinction between a troll and someone who is flaming. Take the quote below from a current thread.

No doubt low level but I read that as a personal insult. In terms of the immediate conversation - the post/s it responded to - there was no provocation for attacking the person, not the opinion.
Is the poster a troll? I suggest it was intentional and offensive.
For me it is a bit more than that. A once off or an occasional emotive response is not a troll in my mind. It is more those that seem to take enjoyment out of continually doing that as if it is their personal sport. Then there are others that seem to take delight in just a lol or a thumbs down emoji.

I doubt that any one of us hasn't made a similar comment due to frustration in our exchanges with another poster.

I really don't get why there is so much angst in trying to make our board a bit more user friendly.
 
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noideaatall

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For me it is a bit more than that. A once off or an occasional emotive response is not a troll in my mind.
In regards to the poster I quoted, this is not a once off. I am not complaining. My point is the definition of a troll is subjective.
It is more those that seem to take enjoyment out of continually doing that as if it is their personal sport.
Confirmation of subjectivity. In regards to the poster I quoted, are they getting enjoyment out of calling someone childish? Or does it reflect passion? How do you know when someone is being passionate and someone who is not?
I doubt that any one of us hasn't made a similar comment due to frustration in our exchanges with another poster.
I really don't get why there is so much angst in trying to make our board a bit more user friendly.
Personally, I hate censorship, No matter how well-intentioned it is a poison. Each of us has a simple mechanism, one click away, to remove the views of posters we find offensive.
At the end of the day annoying and offensive posts are found in almost every thread. Posters come along and don't understand the invisible difference between those posts and the level that will get you banned. We should ignore or embrace, as is your personal desire, not stifle their voice.
 

Maggie5

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Apr 3, 2010
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In regards to the poster I quoted, this is not a once off. I am not complaining. My point is the definition of a troll is subjective.
Confirmation of subjectivity. In regards to the poster I quoted, are they getting enjoyment out of calling someone childish? Or does it reflect passion? How do you know when someone is being passionate and someone who is not?

Personally, I hate censorship, No matter how well-intentioned it is a poison. Each of us has a simple mechanism, one click away, to remove the views of posters we find offensive.
At the end of the day annoying and offensive posts are found in almost every thread. Posters come along and don't understand the invisible difference between those posts and the level that will get you banned. We should ignore or embrace, as is your personal desire, not stifle their voice.
Not sure how to further explain why this thread was started however perhaps it might be useful for you to re-read the terms of service for the site which everyone agrees to abide...


Subjective or not, why you are against this being a more user friendly platform for posters to post their opinions and thoughts without continual personal insults, putdowns and repetitive negativity?

Others have expressed concern on how the board has changed over the years and no longer wish to post or closed their account and all the Mods are saying is try to be mindful of your posting. Why do you see it as censorship?

Since this thread was started, have you seen any censorship?

Regarding the word childish, do you really think the poster used it for enjoyment? To offend?

I am not really sure how to address you concerns further.
 

noideaatall

Cancelled
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Not sure how to further explain why this thread was started however perhaps it might be useful for you to re-read the terms of service for the site which everyone agrees to abide...
Thanks for the link. I'm not sure why you thought it would be useful for me to re-read? I did notice my posts here could easily be interpreted as breaking commandment no1. (Don't be a pest) and no.7 (Don't be a whinger). It is not my intention to be either - rather discussion - but if that is the case let me know and I will see myself out.
Subjective or not, why you are against this being a more user friendly platform for posters to post their opinions and thoughts without continual personal insults, putdowns and repetitive negativity?
Of course I am not against this platform being more user friendly. I am not convinced the change described in the OP will achieve this.
Others have expressed concern on how the board has changed over the years and no longer wish to post or closed their account and all the Mods are saying is try to be mindful of your posting. Why do you see it as censorship?
That is not what is stated in the OP. I have already quoted this above. One type of post/er will be treated differently.
Since this thread was started, have you seen any censorship?
Generally the point of censorship is you don't see it. So how would I know? I did see a significant attempt to silence TG's voice years ago but I wouldn't call that censorship as the voice and attempt were visible. Consider the quote below from recent thread.
I've been saying this all pre season had all my threads banned from the mods.
I never knew this poster existed, let alone their threads were censored. Glad to see this one hasn't. Personally I didn't think they expressed their opinion in a positive way and some could have taken it as offense but I am glad this thread is there.
Regarding the word childish, do you really think the poster used it for enjoyment? To offend?
I don't have any idea why the poster used that term and won't be guessing. At the risk of being offensive, when talking about trolls you were making assumptions about motives, I was pointing out those assumptions were subjective. Personally I don't think the motive behind a post is relevant - it is the words that should define it. I view labelling someone's post as childish as offensive.
I am not really sure how to address you concerns further.
Thanks for taking the time out to respond, you don't have to. For a voluntary position my posts must be a right pain. I was drawn in by (in my perception) jathanas telling us to be nice to each other then next post insulting someone who questioned this. I see this double standard throughout our forum. I see a subtle boundary that some fellow collingwood supporters will find hard to recognise. I see an ignore button that can cut through all this. I won't post here again.

Below is an experience that has influenced my views on forum moderation over the last couple of decades.

In the late-nineties I participated in a forum for current and ex members of a exclusive Christian sect. An ex member joined to post passionately and angrily about being a victim of alleged child sexual abuse by one of the cults leaders. Her passion and accusations did not sit well with many of the posters who were current members of the sect. She was subtly questioned and put down for the anger/passion. Long term posters knew well how to navigate that fine boundary between putting someone down in an accepted way and blatantly insulting. After repeated warnings the ex member was banned from the forum. Less than a decade ago the cult leader in question was convicted & jailed for this assault.

The mods justified the banning by saying it was driving away many good, long term posters, which it was. They were lovely people who just didn’t want to hear bad things about something they loved, despite it turning out to be true. I don’t accurately recall but I don’t think an ignore button existed in that forum. Still, they didn’t have to read her posts or poke and prod and feel some need to shut that voice down. She was shut down because she didn’t have the tools to express her passion/trauma in a manner deemed acceptable. However she needed that forum, needed her voice to be heard far more than any other poster during the years I was involved.

It is disappointing to see posters like SV leave, but he/she/it didn’t have to. How do we know if a poster can discern the difference between “WHERE ARE ALL THE BUCKLEY LOVERS NOW” and calling a poster childish or inferring that they are a coward? How do we know how important this forum or the need to express views strongly is to them?
 

Carringbush2010

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Do you honestly believe that there aren't posters who:

Intentionally say something annoying or offensive in order to upset someone, or to get attention or cause trouble?

That is what I think a troll is, what is your definition?
My definition doesn't matter but mine would be similar to yours.

Point is not that though is it, there have been claims of posters with zero offensive intention who've been infracted coz of the mods interpretation .

Do you honestly believe every mods view is the same as the next? Doubt it, and there's your inconsistency
 

Maggie5

Moderator
Apr 3, 2010
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Thanks for the link. I'm not sure why you thought it would be useful for me to re-read? I did notice my posts here could easily be interpreted as breaking commandment no1. (Don't be a pest) and no.7 (Don't be a whinger). It is not my intention to be either - rather discussion - but if that is the case let me know and I will see myself out.
Of course I am not against this platform being more user friendly. I am not convinced the change described in the OP will achieve this.
That is not what is stated in the OP. I have already quoted this above. One type of post/er will be treated differently.
Generally the point of censorship is you don't see it. So how would I know? I did see a significant attempt to silence TG's voice years ago but I wouldn't call that censorship as the voice and attempt were visible. Consider the quote below from recent thread.
I never knew this poster existed, let alone their threads were censored. Glad to see this one hasn't. Personally I didn't think they expressed their opinion in a positive way and some could have taken it as offense but I am glad this thread is there.
I don't have any idea why the poster used that term and won't be guessing. At the risk of being offensive, when talking about trolls you were making assumptions about motives, I was pointing out those assumptions were subjective. Personally I don't think the motive behind a post is relevant - it is the words that should define it. I view labelling someone's post as childish as offensive.

Thanks for taking the time out to respond, you don't have to. For a voluntary position my posts must be a right pain. I was drawn in by (in my perception) jathanas telling us to be nice to each other then next post insulting someone who questioned this. I see this double standard throughout our forum. I see a subtle boundary that some fellow collingwood supporters will find hard to recognise. I see an ignore button that can cut through all this. I won't post here again.

Below is an experience that has influenced my views on forum moderation over the last couple of decades.

In the late-nineties I participated in a forum for current and ex members of a exclusive Christian sect. An ex member joined to post passionately and angrily about being a victim of alleged child sexual abuse by one of the cults leaders. Her passion and accusations did not sit well with many of the posters who were current members of the sect. She was subtly questioned and put down for the anger/passion. Long term posters knew well how to navigate that fine boundary between putting someone down in an accepted way and blatantly insulting. After repeated warnings the ex member was banned from the forum. Less than a decade ago the cult leader in question was convicted & jailed for this assault.

The mods justified the banning by saying it was driving away many good, long term posters, which it was. They were lovely people who just didn’t want to hear bad things about something they loved, despite it turning out to be true. I don’t accurately recall but I don’t think an ignore button existed in that forum. Still, they didn’t have to read her posts or poke and prod and feel some need to shut that voice down. She was shut down because she didn’t have the tools to express her passion/trauma in a manner deemed acceptable. However she needed that forum, needed her voice to be heard far more than any other poster during the years I was involved.

It is disappointing to see posters like SV leave, but he/she/it didn’t have to. How do we know if a poster can discern the difference between “WHERE ARE ALL THE BUCKLEY LOVERS NOW” and calling a poster childish or inferring that they are a coward? How do we know how important this forum or the need to express views strongly is to them?
Not sure where to start but lets get the easy one out of the way. No you aren't being a pest.

I showed you the rules basically to say it isn't this boards rules they are site rules and even though they may be subjective when assessing, they are what they are. Posters agree to obey the rules when they sign up. I know I received a day off by a Mod when I broke one of the rules and I learned by it. It didn't even occur to me whether it was a subjective assessment. Maybe I am just a sheep.:think::)

I actually disagree with you as since this thread was started, the tone of the board has improved enormously especially after yet another disappointing performance by the team.

It wasn't just SV I was thinking of, there are at least a dozen other posters that have either left or don't post on our board.

I think that further discussion about moderation should be taken off forum (another one of those pesky rules). We are doing this on a voluntary basis and may sometimes get it wrong however if you or anyone has concerns or is unhappy about Mods decisions, either send a PM for clarification and if anyone is still not satisfied by the response, they are free to take it direct to the Chief.
 

Maggie5

Moderator
Apr 3, 2010
42,855
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My definition doesn't matter but mine would be similar to yours.

Point is not that though is it, there have been claims of posters with zero offensive intention who've been infracted coz of the mods interpretation .

Do you honestly believe every mods view is the same as the next? Doubt it, and there's your inconsistency
As I have posted above, if anyone feels that they have been hard done by moderators, they are free to send a PM to the group and air their concerns and if not satisfied take it to Chief.

What is not allowed is for it to be discussed in an open forum.
 

Carringbush2010

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As I have posted above, if anyone feels that they have been hard done by moderators, they are free to send a PM to the group and air their concerns and if not satisfied take it to Chief.

What is not allowed is for it to be discussed in an open forum.
I'll view that as a concession that the rules are flawed because the rules cannot possibly include everyone's view. I'll leave it there.
 

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