Neo Conservatives are full of s**t and Capitalism is a lie

[VineyIsLORD]

Perhaps the OP should get off his arse and get a job.

Sounds like you're upset that even Trump called out you alt-right types today.

I don't need a job, my parents are millionaires.

 

[Long Live HFC]

Whilst the last two posts are reasonably snooty in parts they are both good replies.

I just can't be bothered responding in the level of detail that they deserve right now. I started this thread when drunk and then updated the OP with a stream of consciousness rant (that I do genuinely believe to be true) while hungover, one that I no longer have the energy to defend.

Apologies to you both.

no need for apologies, most of my posts on here (including that one) are alcohol and/or pot-induced and i probably wouldn't have invested much in further sparring. didn't intend to be "snooty" though; more an airing of a few grievances i used to wrestle with during my marxist days.

 

[Power Raid]

Capitalism is 40% state owned without the risks and headaches.

Capitalism can still have socialist policies.

If anything capitalism has proven to be the most robust model evidenced by the GFC.

Lessons from the GFC are banks are infrastructure not risk taking capitalist machines.

The other is our tax system is wrong. We need a wealth tax to shift wealth from the top and shift wealth away from land which causes high rents.

 

[The Edukator]

Typical neoconsertive reaction when scared. Reverts back to lecturing and lies, relies on the ignorance of the rest to save face.

Ask a proper question, a factually correct question and you'll get an answer. I havnt been surprised today and heavily doubt that I will be, but i would like to be proven wrong. Do you have it in you?

how does socialism account for inherently greedy people that don't give a * about anyone else and will step on their heads to get ahead themselves?

 

[VineyIsLORD]

how does socialism account for inherently greedy people that don't give a **** about anyone else and will step on their heads to get ahead themselves?

First you'd have to prove that greed is something inherent and not learned.

 

[Long Live HFC]

First you'd have to prove that greed is something inherent and not learned.

'greed' specifically might be learned, but surely you accept that organisms are self-interested generally?

 

[The Edukator]

First you'd have to prove that greed is something inherent and not learned.

History would disagree. Even of it was a 50-50 trait.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

History would disagree. Even of it was a 50-50 trait.

So you have a feeling that you're right. History actually proves you wrong. Very rare for anyone to even survive let alone thrive on their own.

Good to know.

'greed' specifically might be learned, but surely you accept that organisms are self-interested generally?

Depends if they're a social animal or not. Do you think humans are social or not?

 

[Long Live HFC]

Depends if they're a social animal or not. Do you think humans are social or not?

you'll have to teach me the relevance of your question, sorry. i accept that 'social' animals may display altruistic or communal behaviours to a higher degree than the non-social, but i would dispute that this suggests they are not simultaneously self-interested. the formation of communities/societies (for example) by human beings was as much a survival mechanism as anything else.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

you'll have to teach me the relevance of your question, sorry. i accept that 'social' animals may display altruistic or communal behaviours to a higher degree than the non-social, but i would dispute that this suggests they are not simultaneously self-interested. the formation of communities/societies (for example) by human beings was as much a survival mechanism as anything else.

Socialism is fundamentally about self interest. Moreso than capitalism in fact. More or less for the reasons you've described above.

 

[Chubberson]

Capitalism has ensured that the material side of humanity flourishes. The planet is broken, we kill each other by the thousands every day and you get longer in jail for fraud than you do for rape or child molestation. Capitalism + Bankers + Politics + Lawyers = MASSIVE FAIL

Look around your workplace, the desperate scramble of the ladder climbers to sit under the boss's desk. Kids with ADHD that end up on anti depressants at age 13 which are just SYMPTOMS in most of cases, at least to start with. No wonder kids get ADHD when they get given an IPad, dumped in care and largely ignored. Its very sad that we are better at making money than making our kids happy.

Try telling someone that they're a shitty parent. Humanity in its current state doesn't have the will to change.

 

[The Edukator]

So you have a feeling that you're right. History actually proves you wrong. Very rare for anyone to even survive let alone thrive on their own.

Good to know.



Depends if they're a social animal or not. Do you think humans are social or not?

You've missed the point if you think I'm referring to people going out exclusively on their own.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

You've missed the point if you think I'm referring to people going out exclusively on their own.

And you've missed the point of 'democracy in our economic lives as well as political' if you think it allows for individual greed.

 

[Run n Spread]

Moving towards democratic workplaces or better yet, democratic political lives, wouldn't necessitate a return to nomadic subsistence.

What happens to those voted out of a job as they are not in the boys girls club/one of the popular.

At least politicians have to govern for all rather than those who vote for them. (at least in theory).

 

[Chubberson]

The only solution is to unite. One government. There is enough for everyone but it would take a concerted effort. However, if humans can send men and women into space and build 13 billion dollar hadron colliders, surely we can look after everyone yes?

 

[VineyIsLORD]

What happens to those voted out of a job as they are not in the boys girls club/one of the popular.

At least politicians have to govern for all rather than those who vote for them. (at least in theory).

What do you mean voted out of a job? Sounds like empty rhetoric.

 

[Run n Spread]

What do you mean voted out of a job? Sounds like empty rhetoric.

In that you want a democratic work place. But there is not enough jobs to go around. Thus if it is a vote (which face it it basically is) the unpopular get shoved aside.

 

[Run n Spread]

The only solution is to unite. One government. There is enough for everyone but it would take a concerted effort. However, if humans can send men into space and build 13 billion dollar hadron colliders, surely we can look after everyone yes?

Given what humans value and what we want I seriously question the bold. We didn't end up here by accident.

 

[Procrastinator35]

In that you want a democratic work place. But there is not enough jobs to go around. Thus if it is a vote (which face it it basically is) the unpopular get shoved aside.

Survival of the clique-iest.

 

[Run n Spread]

Survival of the clique-iest.

How else would you explain it? The talented very rarely make it to the top.

 

[Procrastinator35]

How else would you explain it? The talented very rarely make it to the top.

The tribe has spoken.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

In that you want a democratic work place. But there is not enough jobs to go around. Thus if it is a vote (which face it it basically is) the unpopular get shoved aside.

Can you provide a theoretical example?

I really don't understand what you're trying to say

 

[Run n Spread]

Can you provide a theoretical example?

I really don't understand what you're trying to say

Most jobs are not decided on merit but who is the best "cultural fit." Make it official and you have a Survivor episode. Happened to me where I have been managed out. Good lick with socialism but I really don't trust the mob and group think

 

[Chubberson]

Given what humans value and what we want I seriously question the bold. We didn't end up here by accident.

Given what most humans value would be more accurate perhaps. It could be done. I'm not sure what you mean that we didn't end up here by accident. Finding where science and theology create a truth vector may be slightly difficult.

 

[Todman]

="VineyIsLORD, post: 46868789, member: 172737" The best short definition of socialism is "Extending democracy to the workplace so that citizens are directly involved in the decision making that affects their economic lives".

Workplaces (companies) are hierarchal in nature i.e. Board, CEO, Executives, General Managers, Managers, 2IC and Workers with no supervisory role.
Now a good workplace should have communication and feedback moving both up and down the chain of command. While a message from the CEO should travel all the way down the chain, a message from a worker may only get to the 2IC.

It is not socialism.