Moved Thread Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?

Neutral fans: Who’s the better player over the course of their 16 seasons

  • Tom Hawkins

    Votes: 194 69.0%
  • Jack Riewoldt

    Votes: 87 31.0%

  • Total voters
    281

Remove this Banner Ad

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
1,441
834
AFL Club
Richmond
But they're a poor tie breaker, as we've discussed.

In 2012 Reiwoldt won the Coleman averaging 0.13 goals / game more than Hawkins.

In 2018 Reiwoldt won the Coleman averaging 0.18 goals / game more than Hawkins.

The margin is so narrow as to come down to chance.

You keep making simplistic arguments, you keep failing.

I can’t believe you think having triple the amount of Coleman medals is a poor tie breaker. I know you hate Richmond but geez man when you take a step back and think about it it’s insane. You haven’t even given a tie breaker.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
4,200
8,285
AFL Club
Geelong
Ok so it seems you think it is easier for a quality forward to kick goals in a lower scoring team than a higher scoring team…until you get to finals against the strongest opponents, when it suddenly becomes easier for a quality forward to kick more goals in a higher scoring team than a lower scoring team.

Hmmmm.

You may need to explain that a bit further.

By the way, Riewoldt has 16 goals + goal assists in his 4 losing finals against teams finishing top 4 post finals, at the massive average of 4 per game.

In 5 Finals losses Riewoldt has kicked 15 goals.
In 10 Finals wins Riewoldt has kicked 15 goals.

Again, dunno what this suggests, just fun stats
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
21,084
26,990
AFL Club
Essendon
I can’t believe you think having triple the amount of Coleman medals is a poor tie breaker. I know you hate Richmond but geez man when you take a step back and think about it it’s insane. You haven’t even given a tie breaker.

When you take a step back you'd realise that you're making an incredibly poor argument. But Richmond blinkers and such.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Wacky Tiger

Parmy
Aug 26, 2004
27,394
45,929
Country SA
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Fighting Furies, Sturt, Rockets
These threads are such rubbish and a waste of time and ive spent far too long on them 🤣

End of the day they are both champions of the game and the game will be poorer once they are gone. Appreciate them while we still can, same goes for Buddy, Dusty, Selwood, Danger, Fyfe, Cotch and so on
 

Sassermon

Team Captain
Feb 8, 2017
320
671
AFL Club
Gold Coast
Both are brilliant players and have been vital to their respective teams. Only way I can split them personally is based on who I find more enjoyable to watch. On that basis, I would say Hawkins.
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
21,084
26,990
AFL Club
Essendon
Ok what’s your tie breaker then mate? Jack leads everything apart from AAs and score assists.

Why does there have to be a tie breaker? They're players with similar output over their careers. Which is exactly what I've been repeatedly saying whilst you try to bring up Reiwoldt's 0.13 goals / game as being a definitive answer to the OP.
 

BF Tiger

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 5, 2007
8,596
19,933
9th
AFL Club
Richmond
Except where he expressly made the claim;





He's kicked marginally more goals, with marginally less goal assists. Their career stats are almost identical, in 2 of the years Reiwoldt won a Coleman Hawkins was within 3-4 goals, which across 22 games is an insubstantial margin and is close enough so as to come down to luck as much as anything else. In one of those years Reiwoldt won the Coleman and didn't make the AA team whilst Hawkins did.

As I said, we're not talking the gap between Lockett and Reiwoldt or Hawkins here. It's 0.13 goals / game.
Do you not see the question mark? No such claim was made.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Meteoric Rise

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 4, 2008
5,078
13,643
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
It's fairly evident that you're misrepresenting what I've written, I generally regarded you as a decent poster but you're rapidly descending to Richmond nuffie status alongside Falcon3518 right now.

I am deeply offended by that.

I am a way bigger Richmond nuffy than Falcon will ever be. 😁. And furthermore, I resent generally being regarded as a decent poster. 😂

In all seriousness though, more than happy to be corrected if I have misrepresented you. I may have taken slight licence but you did appear to say it is easier to kick goals in a weaker team, then later inferred it is easier to kick goals when your team is winning by loads.

I don’t think that would be your true position but I do think only one or the other can be true. Can’t it?
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
1,441
834
AFL Club
Richmond
Why does there have to be a tie breaker? They're players with similar output over their careers. Which is exactly what I've been repeatedly saying whilst you try to bring up Reiwoldt's 0.13 goals / game as being a definitive answer to the OP.

Um the thread is about who is better mate
 

PhatBoy

Hall of Famer
May 5, 2016
32,918
35,848
AFL Club
Geelong
Which trump Coleman’s, goals and club leading goal kickers


As coleman medals are not a player statistical measurement and nor are club leading goal kicker awards, while goals are, yes numbers across the board do trump awards which are given in honour of a ranking for one metric of output.

Hawkins has been club leading goalkicker 10 seasons in a row - who the hell cares. I sure don’t.
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
21,084
26,990
AFL Club
Essendon
I am deeply offended by that.

I am a way bigger Richmond nuffy than Falcon will ever be. 😁. And furthermore, I resent generally being regarded as a decent poster. 😂

In all seriousness though, more than happy to be corrected if I have misrepresented you. I may have taken slight licence but you did appear to say it is easier to kick goals in a weaker team, then later inferred it is easier to kick goals when your team is winning by loads.

I don’t think that would be your true position but I do think only one or the other can be true. Can’t it?

Both can be true.

Less avenues to goals means more goals focused through fewer targets. Given it's unusual for really good KPFs to be on really poor teams (they have a tendency to drag those teams upwards) it means the total goals kicked by any given side have to come from <somewhere>. Across a season that'll generally gravitate to whoever the best goal-kicker in any given side is.

Too many goals focused through too few targets isn't generally conducive to winning Premierships - from memory Roughead 2013 was the last Coleman medallist and Premiership player, prior to that was Franklin 2008 (where Franklin being the dominant target was a situation Clarkson regarded as unsustainable). So as teams improve and get a better spread of goal-kickers, their totals drop.

Reiwoldt's best average goals/game came in seasons Richmond didn't play finals, Hawkin's best average goals/game came in 2018 when Geelong scraped in to finals, and both declined slightly as they've improved. Hawkins hasn't had the high points Jack has (3.0 and 3.5 goals/game where Tom's best is 2.9 goals/game) but since 2012 (prior to 2012 Jack was clearly better) Hawkins has averaged ~ 2.5 goals/game to Reiwoldt's ~ 2.3 and ~0.31 Brownlow votes to Reiwoldt's ~ 0.25.

In any single game, a team being completely dominant e.g. the Richmond v GWS GF means piling on goals that have to come from somewhere. Is Jack kicking 5 in a smashing really representative of his entire finals performance? In that finals series he kicked 3 against Brisbane in a 47 point smashing, 0 against Geelong in a narrower 19 point win, then 5 in a 89 point obliteration). Finals average 2.67. It's a smaller sample size, more prone to being skewed by an individual game or two.

Generally the game in total goals / game between teams is relatively small if you're team isn't unusually good or unusually bad, which neither Geelong or Richmond have been since 2012.

2010 was an outstanding individual season, but Richmond are a better side targeting Reiwoldt less. Geelong have never been horrible, maybe Hawkins would have had a similarly massive season if they were? McKay is kicking less goals/game this season, but Carlton are better for it, because of a better spread of goalkickers so he'll likely struggle to match 3.0 goals/game unless Carlton become unusually good (or bad) in the remainder of his career.