Moved Thread Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?

Neutral fans: Who’s the better player over the course of their 16 seasons

  • Tom Hawkins

    Votes: 194 69.0%
  • Jack Riewoldt

    Votes: 87 31.0%

  • Total voters
    281

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owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
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Um the thread is about who is better mate

Which is a subjective question, given their career output is almost identical.

A Coleman medal based on 0.13 goals/game is certainly not an objective measure of Reiwoldt's superiority.
 

RUNVS

Hall of Famer
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Hawkins has played in a top team his entire career with the ball coming to him from great players

Jack played in a pretty crap team for the first 8-9 years of his career

As a foward i know which i would have preferred

Jack was also the main target for the Richmond midfield most of his career, while Hawkins wasn't.
 

Dominic03

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 28, 2020
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Apparently, as a Hawthorn fan you hate Richmond more than Geelong.
I've seen that going around a fair bit and not for me. Essendon and Geelong are pretty clear the two we have the most rivalry and dislike for. Although Richmond are high, they're not at that level.
 

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owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
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As a foward i know which i would have preferred

The one where you never had to compete with Johnson, Chapman, Ablett Jnr, Mooney or Stokes for goals (all > 200 who crossed at least part of their careers during Hawkins' time)?

Meanwhile Reiwoldt's career has had Martin, and the final 2 seasons of Richardson as the only 2 players > 200 goals.

Both are now at the latter stages sharing with another KPF in Lynch and Cameron.
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
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As coleman medals are not a player statistical measurement and nor are club leading goal kicker awards, while goals are, yes numbers across the board do trump awards which are given in honour of a ranking for one metric of output.

Hawkins has been club leading goalkicker 10 seasons in a row - who the hell cares. I sure don’t.

Getting the most goals in a season (i.e Coleman) is a stat. Not sure what you are on about. Idk why we should have awards then that are named after LEGENDS of the game, they mean nothing according to you right? I’ve heard you say Brownlows, flags, norm smiths mean f all my whole time in bigfooty. You have to be joking surely. I mean let’s just have an H&A season and forget about finals, let’s not recognise the best player of the season. People will have to make up their own minds by looking up stats. Forget about AA teams, why should we do them the award mean f all right? It’s all about the contested possies and score involvements. Unbelievable
 

Falcon3518

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Mar 13, 2022
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The one where you never had to compete with Johnson, Chapman, Ablett Jnr, Mooney or Stokes for goals (all > 200 who crossed at least part of their careers during Hawkins' time)?

Meanwhile Reiwoldt's career has had Martin, and the final 2 seasons of Richardson as the only 2 players > 200 goals.

Both are now at the latter stages sharing with another KPF in Lynch and Cameron.

Hawkins was a junior, didn’t affect his goal tally at all, juniors are never the first target. The good ball use from the mids outweighs that anyway in the middle stages of his career. Jack had to wait longer to get decent delivery which still wasn’t has good as the cats anyway.
 

PhatBoy

Hall of Famer
May 5, 2016
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Getting the most goals in a season (i.e Coleman) is a stat. Not sure what you are on about. Idk why we should have awards then that are named after LEGENDS of the game, they mean nothing according to you right? I’ve heard you say Brownlows, flags, norm smiths mean f all my whole time in bigfooty. You have to be joking surely. I mean let’s just have an H&A season and forget about finals, let’s not recognise the best player of the season. People will have to make up their own minds by looking up stats. Forget about AA teams, why should we do them the award mean f all right? It’s all about the contested possies and score involvements. Unbelievable


It’s not a stat mate.

Kicking 81 goals to someone else’s 80 and somehow getting this massive statistical edge because you’ve averaged 0.05 goals per game more than the guy you beat, is not a stat.

The stat is 0.05, or 1 goal.

They don’t sit around at the end of a career putting together a statistical profile going ‘he averaged 0.24 coleman medals per year’ they go ‘he averaged 75 goals a year’ or ‘3.4 goals a game.’
 

Falcon3518

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Mar 13, 2022
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I've seen that going around a fair bit and not for me. Essendon and Geelong are pretty clear the two we have the most rivalry and dislike for. Although Richmond are high, they're not at that level.

You only see us high cause of our recent success. We’ve played 1 final against each other in the history of the game in 2018 so we never stuffed up either of our premiership runs.
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
21,087
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Hawkins was a junior, didn’t affect his goal tally at all, juniors are never the first target. The good ball use from the mids outweighs that anyway in the middle stages of his career. Jack had to wait longer to get decent delivery which still wasn’t has good as the cats anyway.

From the middle stages of their career (2012 onwards) Hawkins averages more goals.

Maybe not quite the slam dunk argument you were hoping for.
 

PhatBoy

Hall of Famer
May 5, 2016
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Hawkins was a junior, didn’t affect his goal tally at all, juniors are never the first target. The good ball use from the mids outweighs that anyway in the middle stages of his career. Jack had to wait longer to get decent delivery which still wasn’t has good as the cats anyway.


Right, so playing behind an AA key forward in Mooney, two AA small forwards in Johnson and Chapman, a goal kicking Brownlow medal winning AA in Ablett and a competent small forward in Matthew Stokes - and then a made to order very good key forward in Podsiadly for that matter - none of those factors had any impact at all on Hawkins’ early output. None at all. Their use as targets and goal avenues, their presence in the forward 50, what, they just had no impact whatsoever on Hawkins’ early role, and output, in the footy team. Just none. None whatsoever.
 

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Falcon3518

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Mar 13, 2022
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It’s not a stat mate.

Kicking 81 goals to someone else’s 80 and somehow getting this massive statistical edge because you’ve averaged 0.05 goals per game more than the guy you beat, is not a stat.

The stat is 0.05, or 1 goal.

They don’t sit around at the end of a career putting together a statistical profile going ‘he averaged 0.24 coleman medals per year’ they go ‘he averaged 75 goals a year’ or ‘3.4 goals a game.’

You do realise you can make anything a stat right? In a Coleman medal leader board the Coleman’s are the stat
 

PhatBoy

Hall of Famer
May 5, 2016
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You do realise you can make anything a stat right? In a Coleman medal leader board the Coleman’s are the stat


No, YOU can make anything a stat. For everyone else, it is not.


Go and make a thread about who’s won the most coleman medals if it means that much to you and tug yourself raw over it. Sooner or later there’ll be some guy you never watched who can’t have been any good and suddenly coleman medals won’t mean s**t and you’ll move onto your next obsession.
 

Dominic03

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 28, 2020
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You only see us high cause of our recent success. We’ve played 1 final against each other in the history of the game in 2018 so we never stuffed up either of our premiership runs.
Yeah, although some people didn't like the whole Richmond beating us consistently in the H&A season during 13-15.

And there's others who think you're deliberately trying to injure us..

Just because Ward (concussed VFL Stack tackle), Day (ankle by Caddy) and Impey elbowed in the head by Lynch (Pickett suspended after doing something to Moore).
 

owen87

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
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Only because Jack as recently dropped off since 2019

They averaged the same goals/game from 2013 - 2018

Hawkins has averaged 2.4 goals/game since 2019. Reiwoldt has averaged 2.

Reiwoldt was a better goalkicker early in his career. Hawkins is a better goalkicker later in his career. Both have an elite KPF sharing the forwardline with them at this stage of their career.

Better delivery isn't a stat. Both sides kicked a similar number of goals/game. During their careers apart from very early in Jack's career (2010) neither side have been drastically over or under the league average goals/game for those seasons.

Jack had very few players to share goals with early on. Hawkins had more, and as we know, a better spread of goalkickers tends to happen as teams improve.

Again. Not the slam dunk moment you were hoping for.
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
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They averaged the same goals/game from 2013 - 2018

Hawkins has averaged 2.4 goals/game since 2019. Reiwoldt has averaged 2.

Reiwoldt was a better goalkicker early in his career. Hawkins is a better goalkicker later in his career. Both have an elite KPF sharing the forwardline with them at this stage of their career.

Better delivery isn't a stat. Both sides kicked a similar number of goals/game. During their careers apart from very early in Jack's career (2010) neither side have been drastically over or under the league average goals/game for those seasons.

Jack had very few players to share goals with early on. Hawkins had more, and as we know, a better spread of goalkickers tends to happen as teams improve.

Again. Not the slam dunk moment you were hoping for.

I don’t even get the point of this comment. You obviously don’t listen to Dunstal. He specifically says ball delivery affects how good a fwd is. It’s pretty clear that through that whole decade cats had a better midfield than us. Even in our best years we almost deliberately lost clearance. We hovered around 16th in the league.
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
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Yeah, although some people didn't like the whole Richmond beating us consistently in the H&A season during 13-15.

And there's others who think you're deliberately trying to injure us..

Just because Ward (concussed VFL Stack tackle), Day (ankle by Caddy) and Impey elbowed in the head by Lynch (Pickett suspended after doing something to Moore).

It’s nothing personal Hardwick encourages the team to play like thugs as much as possible within the rules.
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
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No, YOU can make anything a stat. For everyone else, it is not.


Go and make a thread about who’s won the most coleman medals if it means that much to you and tug yourself raw over it. Sooner or later there’ll be some guy you never watched who can’t have been any good and suddenly coleman medals won’t mean s**t and you’ll move onto your next obsession.

Um dude it’s the same thing figuring out how many 30+ disposals and 2 goals a game players have had, which fans analyse all the time. Each one of those games are a statistic. I think the medal part is confusing you or you just found out you made a mistake and don’t want to admit it.
 

PhatBoy

Hall of Famer
May 5, 2016
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Um dude it’s the same thing figuring out how many 30+ disposals and 2 goals a game players have had, which fans analyse all the time. Each one of those games are a statistic. I think the medal part is confusing you or you just found out you made a mistake and don’t want to admit it.


Yeah you got me. Confounded by one of the great analytic minds of modern times who postulates that a small medallion around someone’s neck awarded on the basis of their proficiency in one single statistical measure, trumps hundreds of games worth of data.
 

PhatBoy

Hall of Famer
May 5, 2016
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I don’t even get the point of this comment. You obviously don’t listen to Dunstal. He specifically says ball delivery affects how good a fwd is. It’s pretty clear that through that whole decade cats had a better midfield than us. Even in our best years we almost deliberately lost clearance. We hovered around 16th in the league.


Hang on, all we ever hear from Richmond fans is how pathetic Dangerfield’s delivery is, how for the last 8 seasons including this one we have been propped up by 2-3 stars, how Selwood isn’t actually that good a player and just gets a lot of free kicks. Now suddenly we find out that for those 8 years, our midfield has been every bit as good as the Tigers’ who are led by the greatest two mids ever in Cotchin and Martin?

Make up your minds Tigers fans
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
1,444
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Richmond
Hang on, all we ever hear from Richmond fans is how pathetic Dangerfield’s delivery is, how for the last 8 seasons including this one we have been propped up by 2-3 stars, how Selwood isn’t actually that good a player and just gets a lot of free kicks. Now suddenly we find out that for those 8 years, our midfield has been every bit as good as the Tigers’ who are led by the greatest two mids ever in Cotchin and Martin?

Make up your minds Tigers fans

Numbers support you don’t they? What do you think?