Review Never to talk about it again.

[santa claws]

Have to agree Santa. I also am stunned by some supporters reaction about the loss. I was anticipating a 60 point loss pre-game as was my father an Essendon supporter. Nothing wrong with that.We didn't tank IMO. I have been saying many times we are 6 years away and if Carlton are genuine top 4 we have to expect tough times.

Why some supporters expect a fairytale turnaround in the blink of an eye is beyond me, as unless we are tanking or massively underachieving which can't happen at Richmond due to the passion of the club, these improvements take time!!!

There is light at the end of the tunnel though and we are getting better. We are significantly better than the lists of the Frawley era who could be compared with some of our cellar dwellers at the moment. The difference now is we have a relatively young list with plenty of room to improve going forward. I still think we will get there, it just requires a measured sensible balanced approach to the decision making options to get there. Quick fixes just isn't going to get it done!!!!

yep you have always stuck to your guns and have a realistic outlook oin just how long it may take.

i think the major difference between now and the frawley era is youth. we had no long term future under danny. but atm we at least give our selves a chance of a future with the kids. if you like we are going thru better processes.
the trouble for me with most is the expectation from most supporters that every kid we draft will make it. the simple fact is its likely somewhere between 30 and 45% of our recruits will fail.another problem i have is the over rating of our players, i dont know what sort of process supporters go thru when assesing our players and to be honest i dont think i want to know because it seems there is no ryme or reason.

oh and another aside. people keep saying to me that hawthorn rose from the ashes in a short space of time. i dont see it that way. they started their rebuild as far back as 00 01 14 layers from their 08 premiership came from the 00 04 trade/draft periods.their 08 flag was truly an 8 yr project.
in going a youth policy you are not going to turn things around in a short space of time its more likely to take closer to a decade than 5 yrs to truly build from scratch a dynasty.

 

[santa claws]

I'd like to know how many premiership medallions these 'gen y advocates' have Rodney.

FWIW, Matthews said it made him the player and person he became and he hated his coach until his mid 20's when he began to understand why he'd ridden him so hard - because it developed the character of a champion.

In the end, that's what both parties REALLY wanted, just the younger one couldn't understand what it took to get there, whereas the older, wiser, hard-arse bastard did and the relationship was run on his terms alone. Lump it or leave. Matthews applied much the same principles as a coach (with some allowance for the different era but NO compromise on the fundamentals) and it took him all the way four more times.

Of course every player's different, but honesty goes a long way in all relationships and facets of life, as does not hiding your head in the sand and being prepared and able to recognise when you've blown it and need to do way better or try a different approach.

sheesh i cant believe im saying this but here goes anyway.
here here well said i wholeheartedly agree.

 

[IDGAF]

I think you underrate Carlton particularly the ruck rover combination

Yes and no ... they are top 4 and its taken them a while to get there . But the fact is in no way shape or form did we turn up yesterday .

I would love to get some video tape up here and isolate some instances yesterday .

Some of Thursfields "non efforts" ... not even getting body on body and trying to mark from behind ... my fave was a passage in the third quarter when they went from one end to the other for a goal after a contest at centre half back and they ran it wide ... 4r of them ran hard to the flank and the wing and in the centre of the ground if you froze it ...Cotchin , Jackson and Deledio were just dog trotting making zero effort to A- make a contest and B- get back to zone . they went the length of the ground with three or four passes pretty well incontested . The general lack of pressure that was applied to them all day

Would love to show that passage as it stood out like dogs balls

Dont worry .. Ratten would be telling them not to get that carried away with the result as it was nothing more than a glorified practice match against witches hats

 

[IDGAF]

I'd like to know how many premiership medallions these 'gen y advocates' have Rodney.

FWIW, Matthews said it made him the player and person he became and he hated his coach until his mid 20's when he began to understand why he'd ridden him so hard - because it developed the character of a champion.

In the end, that's what both parties REALLY wanted, just the younger one couldn't understand what it took to get there, whereas the older, wiser, hard-arse bastard did and the relationship was run on his terms alone. Lump it or leave. Matthews applied much the same principles as a coach (with some allowance for the different era but NO compromise on the fundamentals) and it took him all the way four more times.

Of course every player's different, but honesty goes a long way in all relationships and facets of life, as does not hiding your head in the sand and being prepared and able to recognise when you've blown it and need to do way better or try a different approach.

Alright ... Matthews could coach .

But , fact is , he inherited the list at Brisbane.

What was that about cattle ?

 

[Madtiger2006]

the reality is if you dont have the cattle you cant turn up when are supporters ever going to realise this

We lost the game in the middle. Cotchin, Martin, Deledio, Foley. Yes we don't have the cattle. Well done

 

[santa claws]

Just to clarify Santa... you quoted me not word verbatum but pretty well to the mark



Here ... all good



but then you finish off the same post with this ???



I'm confused Santa ... maybe you better clear that up

its very simple im the one whos confused and yes i can see you having some fun with that .
you acknowledge all of the above, players to turn over 2 draafts etc but when someone says we dont have the cattle you object.
look blind fred can see we were not switched on but blind fred can also see and its been debated all yr not just this game that we dont have enough afl standard players who can consistently perform to a decent level.

the simple truth is we will continue to cop hidings like this and we will continue to struggle to play well against the better sides this will happen because we have far to many who are not good enough in one area or another.
as i said we disagree and will continue to disagree if you think we have the cattle fine but for me in being honest i cant see half of that side being a part of a succesful finals side.
im happy to concede to you in all fairness that mind set does play a role and yes they obviously were not switched on. but switched on or not that 100 point hiding was going to be a hiding the margin well you have a guess.

 

[IDGAF]

its very simple im the one whos confused and yes i can see you having some fun with that .
you acknowledge all of the above, players to turn over 2 draafts etc but when someone says we dont have the cattle you object.
look blind fred can see we were not switched on but blind fred can also see and its been debated all yr not just this game that we dont have enough afl standard players who can consistently perform to a decent level.

the simple truth is we will continue to cop hidings like this and we will continue to struggle to play well against the better sides this will happen because we have far to many who are not good enough in one area or another.
as i said we disagree and will continue to disagree if you think we have the cattle fine but for me in being honest i cant see half of that side being a part of a succesful finals side.
im happy to concede to you in all fairness that mind set does play a role and yes they obviously were not switched on. but switched on or not that 100 point hiding was going to be a hiding the margin well you have a guess.

ahh well . we'll leave it at that .

we defineately need more cattle , no question , but we arent as bad as what were yesterday either .

The only thing i will add is that these performances always seems to happen at the "G" in front of 80000 people . Why cant it be in front of the bullies @ Etihad in front of 32000 with a much smaller care factor ???

 

[Rayzorwire]

Alright ... Matthews could coach .

But , fact is , he inherited the list at Brisbane.

What was that about cattle ?

Hardwick currently has a young side, but he also has a lot more to work with ability-wise than we've hung other coaches for failing with.

If he didn't we wouldn't all feel so deflated right now, we'd be meekly accepting our regular hidings as we've so often had to do and hoping for better in some distant year from now.

That's not the case, is it? We're pissed off because a bunch of players we expected to do far better, failed worse than miserably. Because the coaching staff and match committee have totally lost it.

You and I both know there's every chance Hardwick could well be referred to as 'that ex-Essendon accountant Frawley clone...a boof-headed 'footy bloke' the players loved, who didn't have what it takes upstairs' 18 months from now, or far earlier than that.

He's had it easy up until now, from here on it will be a big test for him unlike anything else he's ever faced before. Good luck to him, he's really gonna need it, the club's future is in his hands to an extent that no coach has had to cope with before, and that's really saying something at Richmond.

 

[Mr Magic]

Yes and no ... they are top 4 and its taken them a while to get there . But the fact is in no way shape or form did we turn up yesterday .

I would love to get some video tape up here and isolate some instances yesterday .

Some of Thursfields "non efforts" ... not even getting body on body and trying to mark from behind ... my fave was a passage in the third quarter when they went from one end to the other for a goal after a contest at centre half back and they ran it wide ... 4r of them ran hard to the flank and the wing and in the centre of the ground if you froze it ...Cotchin , Jackson and Deledio were just dog trotting making zero effort to A- make a contest and B- get back to zone . they went the length of the ground with three or four passes pretty well incontested . The general lack of pressure that was applied to them all day

Would love to show that passage as it stood out like dogs balls

Dont worry .. Ratten would be telling them not to get that carried away with the result as it was nothing more than a glorified practice match against witches hats

It is interesting you mentioned Thursfield as as a serial offender is could be a lack of something else.

Also by the third quarter the game was shot so sustainability would be the highest priority I would have thought.

There is no point being too critical of the players when the game is not in the balance!!

 

[Mr Magic]

yep you have always stuck to your guns and have a realistic outlook oin just how long it may take.

i think the major difference between now and the frawley era is youth. we had no long term future under danny. but atm we at least give our selves a chance of a future with the kids. if you like we are going thru better processes.
the trouble for me with most is the expectation from most supporters that every kid we draft will make it. the simple fact is its likely somewhere between 30 and 45% of our recruits will fail.another problem i have is the over rating of our players, i dont know what sort of process supporters go thru when assesing our players and to be honest i dont think i want to know because it seems there is no ryme or reason.

oh and another aside. people keep saying to me that hawthorn rose from the ashes in a short space of time. i dont see it that way. they started their rebuild as far back as 00 01 14 layers from their 08 premiership came from the 00 04 trade/draft periods.their 08 flag was truly an 8 yr project.
in going a youth policy you are not going to turn things around in a short space of time its more likely to take closer to a decade than 5 yrs to truly build from scratch a dynasty.

I know genuinely speaking you live in the world of reality.

However, in terms of a positive outlook as we are trolling around the bottom of the ladder the hope is with quality recruitment we can improve this 30-45% rate particularly with the better picks with proven assessment techniques. For example one can't stuff up the Lids draft picks despite the recruiting personnel one has not that I am anticipating number one draft picks in the near future. I like to think we are going in the right direction but I sense your concerns about some of our latter draft picks not measuring up. Hopefully we will do better with our first to third round draft picks at least. Like you said , these things happen over layers of years, so with time if we do improve our selection methods hopefully that will make a signficant impact on our list calibre along with our development to get us the premiership team we are looking for!!

This is why it is important to go for youth like the 17 year olds etc... This is because it makes the chance to get it right over time so much greater through the years of opportunity like when one posted how we went in the draft in 2001 as a starting point when lookng at the Hodges/Judds etc... of today

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Was watching that fox program they have after the last Sunday Game and Gerard Whately does a "coach saver" segment.
And there it was staring us all in the face. The difference.
In the first term when the game was on Sharrod Wellingham had an opponent in front of him in a one on one,wasn't a particularly dangerous spot for Collingwood but it was very dangerous for Hawthorn.His opponent went one way,then another (how many times did we see that yesterday)And Wellingham couldve done a "Richmond" and just let his opponent around him with a half arsed lunge.
But this PREMIERSHIP player was not only going to fight tooth and nail to hold up the ball but he launched himself at his opponent and won a free kick.It was great play and just made me sick thinking of our tackling yesterday.
Oh and he then went back and slotted it from 50 on the boundary.

 

[UpTheGuts]

Should have just said "you can't win. Strike us down and we will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"

Least it wasn't "all part of the plan. Learn a lot from that" etc.

Up/ down there with the 2007 loss to Geelong

 

[dothebowdenshuffle]

Takes me back 5 years to 2006. Suffered 3 x 100 plus pt beltings that year. Dogs in Rd 1, Swans about Rd 7 and Saints around Rd 20-21. We did recover well though in most of those matches. Lost to saints by 10 following week after Dogs Rd 1 belting and after the Swans shellacking we beat unbeaten Adelaide at Etihad in the famous Bowden brothers keepings off game.

There is a risk in dwelling on that defeat, that it will become too ingrained in our psyche and be given legitimacy by the sheer fact that we're focusing on it. Then again there is a risk by not reviewing it, that we are seen in the eyes of most of our supporters to be taking the soft, unaccountable option and hence don't really learn from it. Whatever the coaches and club decide, getting it wrong is potentially very risky for our Club's culture. Personally I'd rather they stuck to their usual routine and review it. I think they should understand that to be a legitimate footy team, all involved need to be fully responsible and held accountable. That should ensure we take the right messages out of such a shambolic effort.

If we have a good win this week is all forgotten? Or are we scarred for life, forever looking over our shoulder waiting for it to occur again?

 

[CoggaRules]

Takes me back 5 years to 2006. Suffered 3 x 100 plus pt beltings that year. Dogs in Rd 1, Swans about Rd 7 and Saints around Rd 20-21. We did recover well though in most of those matches. Lost to saints by 10 following week after Dogs Rd 1 belting and after the Swans shellacking we beat unbeaten Adelaide at Etihad in the famous Bowden brothers keepings off game.

There is a risk in dwelling on that defeat, that it will become too ingrained in our psyche and be given legitimacy by the sheer fact that we're focusing on it. Then again there is a risk by not reviewing it, that we are seen in the eyes of most of our supporters to be taking the soft, unaccountable option and hence don't really learn from it. Whatever the coaches and club decide, getting it wrong is potentially very risky for our Club's culture. Personally I'd rather they stuck to their usual routine and review it. I think they should understand that to be a legitimate footy team, all involved need to be fully responsible and held accountable. That should ensure we take the right messages out of such a shambolic effort.

If we have a good win this week is all forgotten? Or are we scarred for life, forever looking over our shoulder waiting for it to occur again?

earth to the shuffle..all that can happen is that it doesnt occur again and slowly we will stop looking over our shoulder. Unfortunately at this time it happens without fail..
What exacerbates the issue is that just like R1 in TW's final year, the match had all the hype etc for the tigers going into it and the worst possible performance was once again witnessed. I mean here we had people who had poured in their cash for the name on the guernsey etc etc and then most likely after proudly suggesting that they had donated that much for the honour, had to sit there and wish the earth opened up.

This pissy s**t about coming out next week and winning etc to reclaim some pride is all, been there done that s**t. Dimma didnt get them up for this game, this is what really irks me.

 

[UpTheGuts]

Agree. Hope the players lift etc - dons are 1 from 6 after all

But there had better not be too much back-slapping if we get up.

 

[IDGAF]

earth to the shuffle..all that can happen is that it doesnt occur again and slowly we will stop looking over our shoulder. Unfortunately at this time it happens without fail..
What exacerbates the issue is that just like R1 in TW's final year, the match had all the hype etc for the tigers going into it and the worst possible performance was once again witnessed. I mean here we had people who had poured in their cash for the name on the guernsey etc etc and then most likely after proudly suggesting that they had donated that much for the honour, had to sit there and wish the earth opened up.

This pissy s**t about coming out next week and winning etc to reclaim some pride is all, been there done that s**t. Dimma didnt get them up for this game, this is what really irks me.

Yep

Ive danced the dance with Santa as to the how , what and why's of this game but this sums it up beautifully for me

 

[tugga]

Should have just said "you can't win. Strike us down and we will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"

Least it wasn't "all part of the plan. Learn a lot from that" etc.

Up/ down there with the 2007 loss to Geelong

It was a par with the Geelong game I reckon. Both games, they simply gave up after half time. And I mean gave up in every sense of the word on all levels.

 

[IDGAF]

It was a par with the Geelong game I reckon. Both games, they simply gave up after half time. And I mean gave up in every sense of the word on all levels.

i have a mathematical equation for these things and it goes a little like this

Competence + Expectation + importance x deliverance = ???

Now ... i have run Saturdays performance through the "calculator" and ... Computer says "Carlton game far worse"