New Australian coach Justin Langer

Docker82

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Disagree with quite a lot of this.

I don't think we are missing Clarke at all. Shaun Marsh and Khawaja offer that same type of batsman and perform to a level very similar to he.
Watson - yep, he's a gun.
Haddin, disagree with that too. Mediocre keeper and batting didn't exactly play a significant role at all for us towards the end of his ODI career. I'm no huge fan of either Carey or Wade, but both are providing a similar output.
Johnson, well yes.
Faulkner had a special run of form at that cup. Mitch Marsh was a good replacement who was doing well in ODI cricket, but is off the scene of late after a horrible summer. Stoinis had his 'Faulkner 2015 world cup' patented run of form a year too early for the cup.

Bowling options thin? Possibly. But NCN has done the job very well in the past coming into the cup, the injuries to both the good Richardson and Pattinson have hurt. Neither Zampa or Lyon inspire much confidence. But you look at any ODI bwolign lineup, regardless how vaunted - India just gave up 336 against us (and do frequently)! England and Jofra the great hope routnely go for 300+ Rabada, Ngidi, Tahir, Morris looks great on paper, but the reality is they go the distance too. It's just the game of short form cricket these days! Fans still act as though going for 6 or 7 an over is disgraceful these days like we're back in 2000. The reality is it's nigh on impossible to stop guys like Roy, Buttler, Gayle, Dhawan, Rohit, de Kock once they really get going and seeing Russell, Pandya, Plunkett who can stroll out after 48 overs and smoke the first, second and third they face out of the ground... as a bowler you're basically on a hiding to nothing.

I think Langer has performed ok. As you say the team he's developed looks stronger than it did over 12 months ago. And it does genuinely look as though the culture and environment has been significantly improved.

Difficult to argue with your assessment of the Ashes given the pattern of results in international cricket over the past half decade or so. But while England are stronger, they have their flaws too and also subject to wild fluctuations in performance.
I can see where you’re coming from tbh even though I disagree with you but outside of Cummins who’s a better cricketer in the 2019 side than the 2015 side. You could make a case for Finch being marginally improved but otherwise nope.

2015-2019
Warner > Warner
Finch < Finch
Smith > Smith
Clarke > Khawaja
Maxwell > Maxwell
Watson > Stoinis
Haddin > Carey
Faulkner > NCN
Johnson > Zampa
Starc > Starc
Hazlewood < Cummins

I will add that I think Carey is capable of being as good as Haddin, even better but Haddin did a fantastic job last World Cup. I think people underestimated the guy because a. he’s from NSW and b. he was a bit of a flog at times. Clarke was an underrated limited overs cricketer too - not to mention his captaincy is a world better than Finch’s.

We aren’t hopeless (we just lost by 30 runs to a probable finalist) but we won’t win this thing.
 
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Docker82

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2015 Maxwell is superior to 2019 Maxwell at this point in time
He’s a gun no.6 and handy 5th/6th bowler. When played accordingly he’s elite. In 2015 we had Watson in the top five and four specialist bowlers including Faulkner who were actually reliable. It made Maxwell a better cricketer but is it Maxwells fault?

Guess I based a lot of the other ratings on who played better in the 2015 tournament so why do this differently. 2 out of 11 isn’t fantastic reading.
 

Blue1980

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I can see where you’re coming from tbh even though I disagree with you but outside of Cummins who’s a better cricketer in the 2019 side than the 2015 side. You could make a case for Finch being marginally improved but otherwise nope.

2015-2019
Warner > Warner
Finch < Finch
Smith > Smith
Clarke > Khawaja
Maxwell > Maxwell
Watson > Stoinis
Haddin > Carey
Faulkner > NCN
Johnson > Zampa
Starc > Starc
Hazlewood < Cummins

I will add that I think Carey is capable of being as good as Haddin, even better but Haddin did a fantastic job last World Cup. I think people underestimated the guy because a. he’s from NSW and b. he was a bit of a flog at times. Clarke was an underrated limited overs cricketer too - not to mention his captaincy is a world better than Finch’s.

We aren’t hopeless (we just lost by 30 runs to a probable finalist) but we won’t win this thing.
Clarke was cooked in 2015, added nothing apart from him just wanting to be captain of a World Cup winning team, Khawaja definitely offers more with the bat than 2015 Michael Clarke.

Give Warner & Smith time, both have been going well without going at mega strike rates.

Maxwell could still turn it on

Watson I agree far superior to Stoinis, but then again so would a fit Mitch Marsh

Haddin was excellent granted but getting towards the end in 2015 as well, Carey isn’t exactly a downgrade.

The bowling looks more problematic at this stage, seems sides can look to see off Cummins and starc and target the rest.

Still we just seem to be going at the moment, only lost by 36 runs to the best side in the tournament thus far and beaten 2 sides who will be in the mix for the 4th semi spot.

So 3 wins out of 4 looks good and I’m sure we’d have taken it before the tournament began
 

Docker82

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Clarke was cooked in 2015, added nothing apart from him just wanting to be captain of a World Cup winning team, Khawaja definitely offers more with the bat than 2015 Michael Clarke.

Give Warner & Smith time, both have been going well without going at mega strike rates.

Maxwell could still turn it on

Watson I agree far superior to Stoinis, but then again so would a fit Mitch Marsh

Haddin was excellent granted but getting towards the end in 2015 as well, Carey isn’t exactly a downgrade.

The bowling looks more problematic at this stage, seems sides can look to see off Cummins and starc and target the rest.

Still we just seem to be going at the moment, only lost by 36 runs to the best side in the tournament thus far and beaten 2 sides who will be in the mix for the 4th semi spot.

So 3 wins out of 4 looks good and I’m sure we’d have taken it before the tournament began
Would’ve taken 3 out of 4 wins but the way most of our squad is playing is concerning.

Outside of Warner, Finch, Smith, Cummins, Starc and maybe Carey if you’re generous every single player has been garbage and is a massive downgrade on the 2015 squad.

Tbh I think we’ll be fourth mainly because teams like Pakistan and Sri Lanka are fielding the poorest sides they’ve fielded at a World Cup in a generation. South Africa were certainly much much better last World Cup too. The West Indies may spring the odd upset but will not challenge the big boys.

36 runs didn’t do India justice - we were never in the game.
 

Blue1980

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Would’ve taken 3 out of 4 wins but the way most of our squad is playing is concerning.

Outside of Warner, Finch, Smith, Cummins, Starc and maybe Carey if you’re generous every single player has been garbage and is a massive downgrade on the 2015 squad.

Tbh I think we’ll be fourth mainly because teams like Pakistan and Sri Lanka are fielding the poorest sides they’ve fielded at a World Cup in a generation. South Africa were certainly much much better last World Cup too. The West Indies may spring the odd upset but will not challenge the big boys.

36 runs didn’t do India justice - we were never in the game.
Pakistan haven’t been good at a World Cup for a long time, their about the same.

Sri Lanka, 100% right much worse, South Africa probably their weakest team at a World Cup as well with their recent retirements.

Point is we are still in the hunt, we need to improve to win it, but I think we still can. India do look the best all round side, but in one off semi finals games we are definitely a shot.
 

Docker82

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Pakistan haven’t been good at a World Cup for a long time, their about the same.

Sri Lanka, 100% right much worse, South Africa probably their weakest team at a World Cup as well with their recent retirements.

Point is we are still in the hunt, we need to improve to win it, but I think we still can. India do look the best all round side, but in one off semi finals games we are definitely a shot.
Pakistan have won something like one of their last 15. Turned up and won out of no where against England but otherwise they’ve been rubbish for 12 months in this format.

The thing is I don’t think we are in the hunt. As I made clear I think the other teams in this tournament aren’t as good as four years ago either (excluding India and England - New Zealand about the same). That’s why we’ll make the last four and get smashed in a semi on current form.

I’m just not impressed with us as team as I’d like to be. In 2015 everyone seemed to have a role and knew it inside out. It made players like Maxwell, Haddin and Faulkner into guns.

If Khawaja isn’t opening what purpose does he have?
If Smith bats three can Marsh or Khawaja bat four effectively?
Can Maxwell hold his head well enough to bat five?
Are Stoinis or M.Marsh good enough with bat or ball consistently?
Is our third bowler good enough?
Is our fourth bowler good enough?
Is out fifth and sixth (if required) bowlers good enough?

I believe Marsh can bat four tbh but outside of that I don’t like the answer to any of those questions - It’s a mess. There’s just so much that has to change.
 

JackOutback

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Pakistan haven’t been good at a World Cup for a long time, their about the same.

Sri Lanka, 100% right much worse, South Africa probably their weakest team at a World Cup as well with their recent retirements.

Point is we are still in the hunt, we need to improve to win it, but I think we still can. India do look the best all round side, but in one off semi finals games we are definitely a shot.
On the flip side, England and India putting out among their best line-ups ever.
 

Docker82

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On the flip side, England and India putting out among their best line-ups ever.
Yep. New Zealand as well (bar perhaps their 2015 side).

Exactly why I think beating Pakistan, West Indies narrowly isn't great form and is only papering over quite massive cracks.
 

Ishikawa

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That's pretty disrespectful of the capabilites of this current West Indies side. With bat and ball, these guys are world class.
 

Docker82

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That's pretty disrespectful of the capabilites of this current West Indies side. With bat and ball, these guys are world class.
Is this the same side England beat inside 35 overs and experimented with their batting order like a practice game? Granted it was partially forced by Roy’s injury but I honestly can’t remember the last time any of their so called “world class” players won them a game in an ODI against one of the big boys. They are seriously overrated by most. The way most of these guys play for themselves and/or don’t give a **** about their nation is embarrassing. We should’ve pumped them.
 

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Blue1980

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Is this the same side England beat inside 35 overs and experimented with their batting order like a practice game? Granted it was partially forced by Roy’s injury but I honestly can’t remember the last time any of their so called “world class” players won them a game in an ODI against one of the big boys. They are seriously overrated by most. The way most of these guys play for themselves and/or don’t give a **** about their nation is embarrassing. We should’ve pumped them.
Windies are a bit boom or bust, we are still in the hunt. We need to get better but I don’t think anyone is shying away from that.
 

Ishikawa

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Is this the same side England beat inside 35 overs and experimented with their batting order like a practice game? Granted it was partially forced by Roy’s injury but I honestly can’t remember the last time any of their so called “world class” players won them a game in an ODI against one of the big boys. They are seriously overrated by most. The way most of these guys play for themselves and/or don’t give a **** about their nation is embarrassing. We should’ve pumped them.
1. The hope stemmed from a very impressive performance outgunning a very strong England lineup earlier this year on home turf and have been consistently strong in recent times in ODI's up to last nights stinker
2. You should brush up on your geography
 

Docker82

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1. The hope stemmed from a very impressive performance outgunning a very strong England lineup earlier this year on home turf and have been consistently strong in recent times in ODI's up to last nights stinker
2. You should brush up on your geography
I must admit I have been impressed with their fast bowlers and middle order bats who are some of the more ‘no name’ types in their team. Jason Holder is also an underrated cricketer. However their so called ‘world class’ players don’t seem to win them games at international level and are extremely overrated at this level. Most people seem to hype up Gayle and Russell but they seem good for 20-40 at 150 strike rate before throwing their wicket away at this level. Wasn’t just last night they did - it’s every game so far this tournament. It doesn’t win games of ODI cricket.

And good point on the geography bit - I should refer to them as a cricketing nation or whatever. Regardless many of them play for themselves.
 

Ishikawa

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I must admit I have been impressed with their fast bowlers and middle order bats who are some of the more ‘no name’ types in their team. Jason Holder is also an underrated cricketer. However their so called ‘world class’ players don’t seem to win them games at international level and are extremely overrated at this level. Most people seem to hype up Gayle and Russell but they seem good for 20-40 at 150 strike rate before throwing their wicket away at this level. Wasn’t just last night they did - it’s every game so far this tournament. It doesn’t win games of ODI cricket.

And good point on the geography bit - I should refer to them as a cricketing nation or whatever. Regardless many of them play for themselves.
Agree with Russell, while he is a beastly T20 player he can get caught up in satisfying his own urges for dominance which is not required to such an extent in ODI's. But a bit harsh on Gayle I feel, it's always been an easy call to say he's selfish, but he's stuck around and been an immense contributor for a very very long period of time (over 100 tests). Someone made a good point in that they failed to adapt to the conditions with Southampton being a relatively large venue in terms of dimensions compared to the remainder of the English grounds (& those that they have been playing on recently in the West Indies).

I don't think their overall issue is selfishness, it's an overly one dimensional approach.
 
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