new coach

[theGav56]

I agree. With some fellow fans to question CC's postion as coach is tantamount to sacrilage. You get abused for suggesting we may need another option for coaching.
CC is no where near the worst coach (Terry Wallace), however he certainly isnt in the top bracket either.
Guys like Paul Roos starting coaching well after CC, with a team with arguably less superstars like ours - and have won a premiership.

You've just highlighted the problem rather than pointing to the solution.

Wallet has been almost uniformly rated as a coach for many years. An astute tactician, experienced campaigner, thinker, motivator. And now, doing very ordinary at best and seems to have failed to have moved the club forward, and here is you calling him the worst coach.

Roos on the other hand was not rated as a coaching prospect, including by the panel who appointed him despite what their heads were telling them. He was too nice a guy, not enough experience, too close to the players. Of course he has done brilliantly, but the club rolled the dice in appointing him. Plenty of other clubs have rolled the dice with rookie coaches and come up with nothing.

 

[jarman]

You've just highlighted the problem rather than pointing to the solution.

Wallet has been almost uniformly rated as a coach for many years. An astute tactician, experienced campaigner, thinker, motivator. And now, doing very ordinary at best and seems to have failed to have moved the club forward, and here is you calling him the worst coach.

Roos on the other hand was not rated as a coaching prospect, including by the panel who appointed him despite what their heads were telling them. He was too nice a guy, not enough experience, too close to the players. Of course he has done brilliantly, but the club rolled the dice in appointing him. Plenty of other clubs have rolled the dice with rookie coaches and come up with nothing.

The solution is give Harvey a go until the end of the year and then decide.

CC has been there near on 6 years with very little to show for it. He has been given enough oportunity, money and resources to deliver the club some on field success. He has failed, so it is time to "stop flogging a dead horse" and make the change.

Do something instead of rolling along with the same old carp.

 

[theGav56]

CC has been there near on 6 years with very little to show for it. Do something instead of rolling along with the same old carp.

I bet Geelong are wishing they had said that and given Thompson the flick after 8 years. That way they could be in the middle of rebuilding now, and could then give their new coach the flick in a few years, so that they can rebuild, again.

 

[Dr Ralph Dagg]

Roos on the other hand was not rated as a coaching prospect, including by the panel who appointed him despite what their heads were telling them. He was too nice a guy, not enough experience, too close to the players. Of course he has done brilliantly, but the club rolled the dice in appointing him. Plenty of other clubs have rolled the dice with rookie coaches and come up with nothing.

Roos was highly rated by the Sydney fans who knew his form as a player. The fans forced the Board's hand so it wasn't really rolling the dice. It was letting the fans have a say.

As we can see from BigFooty and all the other forums, how risky is that?

 

[dominguez]

Wallet has been almost uniformly rated as a coach for many years. An astute tactician, experienced campaigner, thinker, motivator. And now, doing very ordinary at best and seems to have failed to have moved the club forward, and here is you calling him the worst coach.

Wallace and Pagan have the same problem. They took over clubs that ween't winning with old lists. Wallace is a tosser but I reckon both are good coaches. Simmonds and Polak would be in his best 6-8 players, Polak couldn't get a game for us and we tried to turn Simmonds into a forward because he was our third string ruckman.

 

[dominguez]

I bet Geelong are wishing they had said that and given Thompson the flick after 8 years. That way they could be in the middle of rebuilding now, and could then give their new coach the flick in a few years, so that they can rebuild, again.

Changing coach doesn't mean you have to rebuild and start again. Worsfold, Roos and Craig got dramatic improvement from their playing group in their first year. If Connolly is replaced at seasons end I'm confident that we'll challenge for the flag next year aslong as Pavlich stays.

 

[Dr Ralph Dagg]

Wallace and Pagan have the same problem. They took over clubs that ween't winning with old lists. Wallace is a tosser but I reckon both are good coaches. Simmonds and Polak would be in his best 6-8 players, Polak couldn't get a game for us and we tried to turn Simmonds into a forward because he was our third string ruckman.

Dom, Dom, Dom. Simmonds was started as a forward because he had a dicky knee, and then given a continued try when we didn't have any forwards. This was when Pav was still playing in the midfield. Maybe there was a cross-over season for 2004.

He was never a 3rd string ruckman. He was definitely a 1st string ruckman with durability concerns.

Sandi only started to get game time after he left. Sandi was the third string.

 

[Cameron_K]

I honestly can't believe people want Laidley at Fremantle

 

[theGav56]

Sandi was the third string.

That's a long bow!

 

[dominguez]

Dom, Dom, Dom. Simmonds was started as a forward because he had a dicky knee, and then given a continued try when we didn't have any forwards. This was when Pav was still playing in the midfield. Maybe there was a cross-over season for 2004.

He was never a 3rd string ruckman. He was definitely a 1st string ruckman with durability concerns.

Sandi only started to get game time after he left. Sandi was the third string.

You're right Ralph. Who played CHF in 2004 while Simmonds was at full forward, was it Polak? Croad left at the end of '03, Pav played onball 2003, 2004.

 

[theGav56]

If Connolly is replaced at seasons end I'm confident that we'll challenge for the flag next year aslong as Pavlich stays.

I bet St Kilda were saying exactly the same thing. Now they have a rookie coach who has developed one of the least attractive gameplans in existence, and is trying to get a group of players who are not equipped to for it, to apply it. The first thing he will do* at the end of the year is cull those who don't have the skills to play it his way, and rebuild with those that do. A good example was Lyon leaping in to recruit Gardiner because his game plan requires a decent ruckman (sic). In the meantime the Saints have slipped from finals/premiership contender, to also rans.

Is Lyon, who was the best available untried coach, better than Thomas? That would be a tricky debate to win at the moment. Both have had to contend with injury problems to key players. One of them had a group of players strategically put together to compliment a particlar style of play, utilising a tall forward line. The other has decided that he wants to play an ultra-defensive, choking style of football that his players don't seem to enjoy. Regardless, the punt to change the coach has not brought a Premiership any closer.

Stability is one of the most important ingredients of a succesful club.

* oops, it may not be the first thing. The first thing is more likely be to develop a 5 year plan, including contract to match. The word "journey" may feature in that plan. That's the reality of a new coach. They need time to develop their own plans, especially a newbie coach, which remains the most likely alternative to Connolly (despite the idea of Sheedy, or whichever experienced coach is most out of favour with their club at the end of the year, being a contender).

 

[Ripper]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21856257-12270,00.html

Interesting article by Patrick Smith.

My eyes pricked up at this bit.

Geelong is in second position. It has won seven matches and lost three but has a percentage 26 points better than leader West Coast. Last year it started promisingly then fell apart, mainly the victim of its own hubris and unimaginative game plan.
It did what most Victorian clubs do. Bled from within. Directors were leaking that the coach must go and that perhaps the president Frank Costa might want to reconsider his position. It was amateurish but indicative of Victorian clubs' behaviour under pressure.
Rather than panic, chief executive Brian Cook reviewed the club completely. Every position was scrutinised. Just about everything changed. The result was that Mark Thompson remained as he should have but he was given the extra support of Neil Balme, who had previously run the Collingwood football department. Geelong has a new self-belief, attacks football aggressively but with flair and appears the likely challenger to West Coast come September.

 

[martorius]

That's a long bow!

I agree!! in 2003 i though about Sandi, Why are they playing this guy. Apart from being tall, he's absolutely sh*t! Can't kick, mark, handball. And sure he gets hitouts, but the other team always gets the clearance!! I'm glad i was proved wrong!!

 

[dominguez]

I bet St Kilda were saying exactly the same thing. Now they have a rookie coach who has developed one of the least attractive gameplans in existence, and is trying to get a group of players who are not equipped to for it, to apply it. The first thing he will do* at the end of the year is cull those who don't have the skills to play it his way, and rebuild with those that do. A good example was Lyon leaping in to recruit Gardiner because his game plan requires a decent ruckman (sic). In the meantime the Saints have slipped from finals/premiership contender, to also rans.

Is Lyon, who was the best available untried coach, better than Thomas? That would be a tricky debate to win at the moment. Both have had to contend with injury problems to key players. One of them had a group of players strategically put together to compliment a particlar style of play, utilising a tall forward line. The other has decided that he wants to play an ultra-defensive, choking style of football that his players don't seem to enjoy. Regardless, the punt to change the coach has not brought a Premiership any closer.

Stability is one of the most important ingredients of a succesful club.

* oops, it may not be the first thing. The first thing is more likely be to develop a 5 year plan, including contract to match. The word "journey" may feature in that plan. That's the reality of a new coach. They need time to develop their own plans, especially a newbie coach, which remains the most likely alternative to Connolly (despite the idea of Sheedy, or whichever experienced coach is most out of favour with their club at the end of the year, being a contender).

There have been 6 clubs hit by injuries/suspensions to key players. West Coast and Adelaide have handled it well while Fremantle, St Kilda, Melbourne and Richmond have struggled to cover for those who are out.

What Rod Butterss wouldn't have counted on was the backlash from the players when Grant Thomas was sacked. Nick DalSanto and Nick Riewoldt haven't signed on yet, with suggestions that they are still angry that the club sacked GT. I think it's fair to say that there wouldn't be the same backlash if Connolly was sacked at seasons end, McPharlin is the only player I've seen genuinely support the coach. Thomas was more of a life coach and mentor to his young players, I don't think our players would call Chris for advice on their personal lives.

There was also personal issues which resulted in Thomas getting the sack, with Butterss saying publicly that Thomas would have been fired if they had won the flag. It's the opposite to Fremantle, Thomas got fired when he possibly didn't deserve it after he fell out with the president, where Connolly got an extension when he probably didn't deserve it because the CEO is his best buddy.

Is Lyon a better coach than Thomas? Will whoever replaces Connolly be a better coach than Chris? I'm not sure, but in both instances I think it is worth taking the risk because IMO the saints would have never won a flag under Thomas and Fremantle won't win one under Connolly. Better to take a risk and fail than to continue down the path of mediocrity for the sake of stability.

 

[theGav56]

Is Lyon a better coach than Thomas? Will whoever replaces Connolly be a better coach than Chris? I'm not sure, but in both instances I think it is worth taking the risk because IMO the saints would have never won a flag under Thomas and Fremantle won't win one under Connolly. Better to take a risk and fail than to continue down the path of mediocrity for the sake of stability.

Agree about taking risks with a totally different outcome.

Geelong took the massive risk of staying the distance with their Coach, and are reaping the rewards of the stability that has brought. Thompson has hovered around the mark of Coach Most Likely To Be Sacked for a number of years, and the easy solution would have been to get rid of him. By not doing that they have put the onus on the players as well as the coaching staff to lift their game, rather than simply sheeting the blame to Thompson and giving the players an easy excuse.

That is risk taking.

 

[estibador]

It's not just the fact that we are having an ordinary season that's putting pressure on CC though is it? It's the cumulative disappointment of missing 2 of the last three finals series with what should have been a top 8 team. It's was particularly bad in 04 (I think) when we had a finals spot all but sewn up only to fall apart and finish the season with a 4 or 5 game losing streak.

And it also wouldn't be as much of a concern if the players all backed CC to the hilt. But as Dom mentioned that doesn't seem to be the case. For years now we've heard rumblings of discontent from the senior players about CC's coaching style, culminating in the near legendary story of the farm meeting where the players exerted their views on how the team should be playing.

We'll never know how much of this is just a media beat up but it is concerning that the players don't seem to have complete loyalty to CC's methods. The fact that we had our best ever season after the players supposedly put pressure on to change the teams approach isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of CC's coaching.

Don't get me wrong I hope we turn it around and CC becomes our first premiership coach but I'm becoming increasingly pessimistic that that's going to be the case.

 

[ImperialPurple]

I just want someone with guts, strength of character, discipline and heart to grab this club by the scruff of the neck and say, "enough is enough - get up there where you belong, where you and your supporters deserve to be, or risk being forever stuck in the mire of mediocrity and underachievement. The time is now, and I am going to lead you to it, and by god you will follow - or you can piss off now cos you don't deserve the glory days which are heading our way."

If CC is capable, then let him be the one - if he's not, then the Board needs to make it their mission to find someone who is capable. And go out and get him.

 

[pinkus maximus]

And it also wouldn't be as much of a concern if the players all backed CC to the hilt. But as Dom mentioned that doesn't seem to be the case. For years now we've heard rumblings of discontent from the senior players about CC's coaching style, culminating in the near legendary story of the farm meeting where the players exerted their views on how the team should be playing.

thats one of the things that has bugged me over the years

no offense to luke macpharlin or shaun mcmanus and to a lesser extent heath black (he said he was "doing his best" when asked if CC was a good coach) but i have always wanted someone like pavlich or peter bell to come out and publicly support CC. the fact it hasnt happened is a worry

 

[theGav56]

It's not just the fact that we are having an ordinary season that's putting pressure on CC though is it? It's the cumulative disappointment of missing 2 of the last three finals series with what should have been a top 8 team. It's was particularly bad in 04 (I think) when we had a finals spot all but sewn up only to fall apart and finish the season with a 4 or 5 game losing streak.

'04? Our list now is massively better than it was back then, especially with the number of games and physical development that the players now have. We are over-rated now, let alone back then.

Pavlich's wayward kicking for goal last weekend has a huge effect on where we sit on the ladder. Connolly's coaching on the other hand was fine in that game. Too easy to blame a coach.

 

[estibador]

'04? Our list now is massively better than it was back then, especially with the number of games and physical development that the players now have. We are over-rated now, let alone back then.

Pavlich's wayward kicking for goal last weekend has a huge effect on where we sit on the ladder. Connolly's coaching on the other hand was fine in that game. Too easy to blame a coach.

I think our list in 04 was still good enough to make the finals though. I don't think our list is overrated. If Collingwood and Hawthorn are good enough to be sitting top 4 then we certainly are.

I'm not blaming the coach for the Collingwood loss I'm just concerned that other than the second half of last season we don't seem to have progressed much. Other teams seem to have overtaken us and we still have the same old problems of a lack of consistency and slow starts to every season that see us behind the 8 ball right from the start.

I'm still confident we're on the verge of turning our season around and I think we'll make the finals but a top 4 finish should have been the minimum expected of this season. Who knows, maybe top 4 isn't out of the question. If CC could lead us on a streak last season maybe he can do it again.

But if we don't improve and things continue the way they have this year then all things considered I think we should look at headhunting a proven senior coach for next year. That's not just based on this season, that's based on our achievements of the last 4 years as a whole.

 

[The Night Shift]

Agree about taking risks with a totally different outcome.

Geelong took the massive risk of staying the distance with their Coach, and are reaping the rewards of the stability that has brought. Thompson has hovered around the mark of Coach Most Likely To Be Sacked for a number of years, and the easy solution would have been to get rid of him. By not doing that they have put the onus on the players as well as the coaching staff to lift their game, rather than simply sheeting the blame to Thompson and giving the players an easy excuse.

That is risk taking.

Geelong replaced nearly everyone in the football department besides Bomber Thompson. Thats hardly what you could call an example of continuity and stability. There was some wholesale changes. Perhaps we are looking in the wrong direction. Maybe replacing a few asst. coaches and restructing is the way to go.

 

[dominguez]

'04? Our list now is massively better than it was back then, especially with the number of games and physical development that the players now have. We are over-rated now, let alone back then.

Pavlich's wayward kicking for goal last weekend has a huge effect on where we sit on the ladder. Connolly's coaching on the other hand was fine in that game. Too easy to blame a coach.

Half the teams make the finals each year, it's not a major achievement to make the eight. There weren't 8 teams with more talent at their disposal in 2004 and 2005. We definately underachieved those years by dropping games to mediocre opposition at home. From memory we went 6-6 at home and 5-5 on the road in 2004, and something similar in 2005. Dropping that many games at Subi was unacceptable, and losing to port in round one this year is going to hurt us again.

Connolly has improved on match days, and has done well in the box this year. But it is also a coaches job to get the most from his players, and too many are up and down at Fremantle. Apart from a 9 week stretch our form has been up and down like a yoyo for three and a half seasons. If we showed the same commitment as we did against Collingwood for all ten games this season we certainly wouldn't be 4-6. While we didn't get the points on Friday it was obvious early that the players were switched on, which would have been enough to get us a win in rounds 1 and 2, and would have taken us close against Brisbane and Geelong.

I'm confident Headland and Mundy would find greater consistency under a different coach, just like Polak has.

 

[dominguez]

Blight backs Connolly

It's getting ugly at St Kilda

 

[The Night Shift]

As it has been pointed out, Schwab and CC are mates. I don't see a problem with that really. A lot of us become good mates with those we work with.

Have a look at St Kilda - what a public melt down between former coach GT and Buttersssszzzz - whose comments cannot help the Saints club at all.

Isn't there legal action happening there as well with some debt or something like that??

At least we are stable off-field in Fremantle. Things arent so bad compared to other clubs current problems.

 

[dominguez]

As it has been pointed out, Schwab and CC are mates. I don't see a problem with that really. A lot of us become good mates with those we work with.

You need your coach and CEO to have a strong working relationship, but they have been best mates since they were teenagers. Most of us would have worked in a job where the bosses son/mate also works there, and while they think they are treating everyone equally, it usually isn't the case.