New direction at St Kilda?

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VDS66

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wow... GT gets one right. Even Ross says that he is a career coach. Makes no bones or isn't ashamed to admit it. any why wouldn't anyone be a career coach? win/loss sucks... ure out the door. Regardless if you're GT, Lyon or even Rob Harvey.
 

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wow... GT gets one right. Even Ross says that he is a career coach. Makes no bones or isn't ashamed to admit it. any why wouldn't anyone be a career coach? win/loss sucks... ure out the door. Regardless if you're GT, Lyon or even Rob Harvey.

Not sure it will be his choice?

Career coach, what does that even mean?

Football has a habit of deciding their fate, not the coaches.
 

VDS66

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Not sure it will be his choice?

Career coach, what does that even mean?

Football has a habit of deciding their fate, not the coaches.

Say what?

Career coach means that where he sees himself earning his money until he retires. He is not aligned to any club emotionally. Eade is a career coach... a gun for hire if you prefer. If the right senior job comes up... he'll jump.

Roos is not a career coach. He did it, succeeded now if he never coaches again, I doubt he'll care.

GT is not a career coach either... whether by choice or lack of demand... who knows?

As far as his comments go, it's as obvious as my kids telling me I am bald. pretty obvious to anyone except Stevie Wonder. But apart from a career coach thing, wtf would Grant know about Ross'or anyone's future plans?
 

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mysainters

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Say

Say what?

Career coach means that where he sees himself earning his money until he retires. He is not aligned to any club emotionally. Eade is a career coach... a gun for hire if you prefer. If the right senior job comes up... he'll jump.

Roos is not a career coach. He did it, succeeded now if he never coaches again, I doubt he'll care.

GT is not a career coach either... whether by choice or lack of demand... who knows?

As far as his comments go, it's as obvious as my kids telling me I am bald. pretty obvious to anyone except Stevie Wonder. But apart from a career coach thing, wtf would Grant know about Ross'or anyone's future plans?

Yeah, I get that...

He sees himself earning money as a senior coach at AFL level until he retires.

My point is, good luck with that, but I can't see it happening.
 
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Say

Say what?

Career coach means that where he sees himself earning his money until he retires. He is not aligned to any club emotionally. Eade is a career coach... a gun for hire if you prefer. If the right senior job comes up... he'll jump.

Roos is not a career coach. He did it, succeeded now if he never coaches again, I doubt he'll care.

GT is not a career coach either... whether by choice or lack of demand... who knows?

As far as his comments go, it's as obvious as my kids telling me I am bald. pretty obvious to anyone except Stevie Wonder. But apart from a career coach thing, wtf would Grant know about Ross'or anyone's future plans?

They really seem to like stating the obvious though dont they. I'd label Laidley a career coach. Not afraid to continue on as an assistant. ( Although for all I know he may need the money because the North gig was some work for the dole scheme ).
 
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2005 is often remembered as a good chance for StKilda. But I think Buterss and co got the timing completely wrong.
There was too much gap between the stalwarts and the yet to emerge young talant. Too much topping up compromised the quality of the youth coming trough in the last part of the decade.

Comparing then and now.
Harvey aged 34 , still good and probably was yet to have better seasons than 2005, but current day Lenny a better prospect to impact games.

Peckett aged 32 , I'd prefer a 24 year old Geary

Hamill aged 28, was shot by the end of the season. We've never replaced his physical presence but 24 year old Milera has managed to be nearly as effective at scoring goals.

22 year old Xavier Clarke only managed 9 games in 2005. Jack Newnes played 7 in his first year, and his stats are close to Xav's.

32 year old Thommo was doing OK, but way less than Joey last year.

29 year old Aussie Jones was OK but inconsistent at times, current Gram would be better. Can Sippo do better?

21 year old Leigh Fisher didnt get a game in 2005. vs Ledger?

25 year old Lenny Hayes. Lenny had a breakout year in 2003 ( 23YO ), elevating himself from a level where Armo is now, to one of the elite. Can Armo do it?

28 year old Max Hughton. Lead the team for 1%s and was an elite full back. Sam Fisher? Tom Simpkin (lead the club for 1%s 2012 )?

25 year old Baker had a terrific year. Jones?

28 year old Gehrig. We've never replaced him. 24 year old Schwartze for backup. Lee ? Wilkes?

22 year old Montagna. Played 8 games. Some were OK Dunell?

23 year old Riewoldt. When all's said and done, he was a bit before his prime, now he's a bit after.

27 year old Brett Voss. I dont know, Schnieder?

21 year old Ball had an amazing year. Him and Dal averaged nearly 10 clearances per game each.
No one gets that many clearances any more, but can Steven step up to become an elite ballwinner?

21 year old Gram didn't get many games. Sippo?

20 year old Raph. I'll take 26 year old Gwilt.

29 year old Powell was pretty good. Compare to Gilbert ?

20 year old BJ was still a bit green , Comare to current day Dempster?

24yo Luke Penny was crueled by injury in 2005. Simpkin?

23 year old Sam Fisher was just making his presence known. Roberton?

21 yo Fergason . Kosi

24 year old Fiora < Farren Ray

23 YO Kosi vs 23 yo Stanley

21 year old Dal Santo vs

24 year old Blake vs

21 year old Maguire Ferg?

25 year old Milne vs Saad + Milne now?
 

VDS66

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Yeah, I get that...

He sees himself earning money as a senior coach at AFL level until he retires.

My point is, good luck with that, but I can't see it happening.

Why not? Sheedy has, and so does Malthouse. If Ross wins a flag or 2 then he can also expect some longevity in the game.
 

VDS66

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pretty obvious that topping up compromised development. Happens at every club. Now it's easy to push this line of argument only to state the obvious.

The real issue IS the reason why a top up approach was undertaken. Critics of this policy are quick to condemn Lyon, but almost all of you to a person cannot answer this question... why?

We had a decent core as pointed out. So once again... you have 2 options. The first is to try and get a flag with this core. This involves building the team around them. IE: topping up as people refer to it.

The second is to just develop and recruit kids, which as anyone who has the slightest clue about footy will now that (a) they take a few years to develop and (b) they can turn out to be spuds.

In this case, you have to wait a few years by which time your senior core is getting too old.

So I will ask again... what direction would you have preferred at the time Lyon was appointed? Rebuild? Or top up which almost got us 2 flags???
 
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pretty obvious that topping up compromised development. Happens at every club. Now it's easy to push this line of argument only to state the obvious.

The real issue IS the reason why a top up approach was undertaken. Critics of this policy are quick to condemn Lyon, but almost all of you to a person cannot answer this question... why?

We had a decent core as pointed out. So once again... you have 2 options. The first is to try and get a flag with this core. This involves building the team around them. IE: topping up as people refer to it.

The second is to just develop and recruit kids, which as anyone who has the slightest clue about footy will now that (a) they take a few years to develop and (b) they can turn out to be spuds.

In this case, you have to wait a few years by which time your senior core is getting too old.

So I will ask again... what direction would you have preferred at the time Lyon was appointed? Rebuild? Or top up which almost got us 2 flags???

I was happy with what he did, but I wasnt happy with what he didn't.
Armitage, Geary, Steven. They all clearly have the talent. Was their talent developed in an optimal manner?
I do not believe that the club focussing on finals precluded the development of these players.
 

VDS66

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I was happy with what he did, but I wasnt happy with what he didn't.
Armitage, Geary, Steven. They all clearly have the talent. Was their talent developed in an optimal manner?
I do not believe that the club focussing on finals precluded the development of these players.

Fair enough. at least you answered. Geary played a fair bit until finals. I reckon Steven was too raw at that stage and Armo didn't quite get along with Ross and was never really 100% fit. not making excuses, but I do know that Ross tries to minimise risks on the field.

So I can understand why some players didn't play in the finals. That was his call. Had we won = genius. Biggest error was to not play Big Ben in GF IMO. But then again, they knew we were up against it with the Pies, so they went with an extra mid.
 
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pretty obvious that topping up compromised development. Happens at every club. Now it's easy to push this line of argument only to state the obvious.

The real issue IS the reason why a top up approach was undertaken. Critics of this policy are quick to condemn Lyon, but almost all of you to a person cannot answer this question... why?

We had a decent core as pointed out. So once again... you have 2 options. The first is to try and get a flag with this core. This involves building the team around them. IE: topping up as people refer to it.

The second is to just develop and recruit kids, which as anyone who has the slightest clue about footy will now that (a) they take a few years to develop and (b) they can turn out to be spuds.

In this case, you have to wait a few years by which time your senior core is getting too old.

So I will ask again... what direction would you have preferred at the time Lyon was appointed? Rebuild? Or top up which almost got us 2 flags???
I don't see how focusing on drafting is synonymous with rebuilding. And topping up is hardly the reason why we made two grand finals. Collingwood showed in 2010 that you can play youngsters even if you're a premiership contender, that's what made the difference between us and them on the day.
 

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I don't see how focusing on drafting is synonymous with rebuilding. And topping up is hardly the reason why we made two grand finals. Collingwood showed in 2010 that you can play youngsters even if you're a premiership contender, that's what made the difference between us and them on the day.
Quite frankly, it had everything to do with their structure and our (read: Lyon's) reluctance to play anyone who hadn't proven their worth in the desired tactical perspective as well as being physically tough enough. We all know, especially after his interview with Sheahan, that Baker should never have been played due to injury. The reason he was played was what else he could provide and what was valued at the time.

As stated, our game style under Lyon had everyone bamboozled until such time that any particular team could break it down and minimise its effect. It certainly didn't help that we kicked something like 1 12 up until half-time against them in perfect weather.

Collingwood maximised the effect of having a large number of talented 'unknown quantitites' as far as we were concerned. We had a large number of talented 'known quantities' as far as they were concerned, who didn't/couldn't execute while they were able-bodied, let alone when it counted.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but to get an idea of how much formation and initiative comes into play and how those aspects are being adopted by various clubs, I challenge anyone to play a recent (post 2009) edition of Football Manager and create a game style from scratch (without milking any known glitches or deficiencies within the game). The sport, in real life, being 'soft' or not has no bearing on your outcomes, only your decisions do. Everyone wants to be the first applying hindsight and declaring the supposedly correct way of doing things if they had their way. Armchair critics with no experience... are just that.

Imagine you're in the final of the Champions' League but your best striker has just returned from injury and really isn't physically capable of performing. Any amount of money says that you as a 'manager' will take that striker as a matter of personal loyalty and subjective projection of possible outcome. There's a very good reason that Sheedy (hugely talented list across the board) has been in talks with Alex Ferguson after Malthouse's declaration of adopting a 'manager' role.

Sometimes you're a manager who has no actual say regarding 'cattle', yet has every say on game day. The NFL is a perfect example of what it is to be a coach in the same manner. The AFL already has the equivalent of both Defensive or Offensive Co-ordinators. We just call them Midfield coaches (eg. Robert Harvey, Dean Laidley) etc.

Topping up is another way of saying 'hey coach, if this is the sort of player you need (read: another versatile back flanker or defensive forward) we'll get the best one we can find at short notice and you can use them to your own end. Sometimes the board force their hand and you no longer have a stalwart of your system, as Watters has had to experience through the Goddard fiasco.

Sydney currently have the oldest list, however they just won a premiership. Age is irrelevant. Man management both mentally and physically is king, and one slip can cause an irrepairable rift or consideration of a managerial perspective.

To be a 'career coach' is to build a system based on what is available to you regardless of overall ability. Ross Lyon played for Fitzroy. Did he go out and declare he wanted to be coach of Brisbane? Why did both Lyon and Roos find Sydney a more viable option to ply their trade? Was it because his father played a tiny number of games for South Melbourne? Why did Lyon select Elshaug as a member of his coaching staff even though he had no prior link to St.Kilda whatsoever?

Too many pretend they're reading between the lines and thinking macro when they're really thinking micro. These are opinion bases that don't deserve the time of day. Pretension is an individual curse, unfortunately fostered by the media and lapped up by the mentally weak.
 

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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...llenge-to-saints/story-e6frg6n6-1226537193188

Watters issues 'the challenge' to Saints

(on Hayes) "I watched him at a training session today and marvelled at his ability - his one-touch football, the balls coming at him at full pace and the half-volleys. His ball use (is) as exquisite as it normally is,"

"But the challenge is going back to Lenny this year to put his hand up for the leadership group."

... you can hear the urgency in Watters' voice.

"We have spoken about how it is easy to become conditioned to acceptable levels of performance."

"It is about them individually challenging themselves daily and as a team, and choosing their own destiny rather than listening to others."

"Our list is definitely progressing ... it's a work in progress, but with the players we have brought in we feel there is a starting point for a real foundation which complements our senior players."

Bottom line: St Kilda won't be falling back on Raph Clarke and his ilk if injuries hit this year. (ahhh ... thanks Ralphy :confused: )

"Kosi is no different to any player on the list. I am not one that selects on emotion. Players effectively select themselves. Those who are physically prepared and absolutely exhaust every avenue over summer are the ones who show good pre-season form, and they ultimately find their way into the Round 1 side."

(on Roo & captaincy) "We have had some brief discussions but nothing massive yet. We will cross that bridge in January, but what I thought was a real bonus for the club last year was the way Nick led."
 

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All of my comments on Lyin have to be seen through the prism of how he left the Saints. Fair call that he is a professional coach and can ply his trade, with whoever will employ him. But the manner that he departed to Freo and left us in the lurch at seasons end, was unforgivable. Freo should keep in mind, if he could do this to us, he will just as easily do this to them, if the right opportunity appears for him.

Having said all of that (my normal Lyin vent) I believe it boils down one simple question:

" Was St Kilda a better club, for Lyin's time here?"

By virtually any measurement you would have to say yes:

- consistent and expected finals matches

- three grand finals (over two years)

- increased professionalism

- expectation of success

But is St Kilda better for him having left? Most definitely (objection was not from him going, but in the manner that he left). A number of disfunctional areas have been addressed. The club is now showing a level of professionalism, that is not only long overdue, but in a number of areas, at the forefront of operations.

Is Watters the right person to take the Saints to the next stage?

Premierships are incredibly hard to win (dont we know that), but you would have to say at this stage that Watters and the current Saints Admin, are giving us the best possible opportunity, to do this and to build sustainable and continuing success.
 

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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...llenge-to-saints/story-e6frg6n6-1226537193188

Watters issues 'the challenge' to Saints

(on Hayes) "I watched him at a training session today and marvelled at his ability - his one-touch football, the balls coming at him at full pace and the half-volleys. His ball use (is) as exquisite as it normally is,"

"But the challenge is going back to Lenny this year to put his hand up for the leadership group."

... you can hear the urgency in Watters' voice.

"We have spoken about how it is easy to become conditioned to acceptable levels of performance."

"It is about them individually challenging themselves daily and as a team, and choosing their own destiny rather than listening to others."

"Our list is definitely progressing ... it's a work in progress, but with the players we have brought in we feel there is a starting point for a real foundation which complements our senior players."

Bottom line: St Kilda won't be falling back on Raph Clarke and his ilk if injuries hit this year. (ahhh ... thanks Ralphy :confused: )

"Kosi is no different to any player on the list. I am not one that selects on emotion. Players effectively select themselves. Those who are physically prepared and absolutely exhaust every avenue over summer are the ones who show good pre-season form, and they ultimately find their way into the Round 1 side."

(on Roo & captaincy) "We have had some brief discussions but nothing massive yet. We will cross that bridge in January, but what I thought was a real bonus for the club last year was the way Nick led."


Love Watters focus and what he is trying to get from all players.

The competition for all places at the Saints this year will be intense. If he is selecting them on form and endeavour, we are in for an exciting year.
 

Sir Skid

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To me the best part is that there is some excitement again.
The number of talented kids and some key young mature recruits means that there is healthy competition for spots all over the ground.
Actions speak louder than words in changing culture and that message is coming through very clearly.
Play up and party time are over. Earn your spot, or someone else will take it. Love it!
 

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Theres only ONE direction for us , and thats FORWARD!!! We went a little backward last yr and lets hope the injection of quality youth can point us the other way:)
( by ONE DIRECTION i obviously mean the Saints going upward. I in no way shape or form am refering to that poxy young band :D )
 

VDS66

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Quite frankly, it had everything to do with their structure and our (read: Lyon's) reluctance to play anyone who hadn't proven their worth in the desired tactical perspective as well as being physically tough enough. We all know, especially after his interview with Sheahan, that Baker should never have been played due to injury. The reason he was played was what else he could provide and what was valued at the time.

As stated, our game style under Lyon had everyone bamboozled until such time that any particular team could break it down and minimise its effect. It certainly didn't help that we kicked something like 1 12 up until half-time against them in perfect weather.

Collingwood maximised the effect of having a large number of talented 'unknown quantitites' as far as we were concerned. We had a large number of talented 'known quantities' as far as they were concerned, who didn't/couldn't execute while they were able-bodied, let alone when it counted.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but to get an idea of how much formation and initiative comes into play and how those aspects are being adopted by various clubs, I challenge anyone to play a recent (post 2009) edition of Football Manager and create a game style from scratch (without milking any known glitches or deficiencies within the game). The sport, in real life, being 'soft' or not has no bearing on your outcomes, only your decisions do. Everyone wants to be the first applying hindsight and declaring the supposedly correct way of doing things if they had their way. Armchair critics with no experience... are just that.

Imagine you're in the final of the Champions' League but your best striker has just returned from injury and really isn't physically capable of performing. Any amount of money says that you as a 'manager' will take that striker as a matter of personal loyalty and subjective projection of possible outcome. There's a very good reason that Sheedy (hugely talented list across the board) has been in talks with Alex Ferguson after Malthouse's declaration of adopting a 'manager' role.

Sometimes you're a manager who has no actual say regarding 'cattle', yet has every say on game day. The NFL is a perfect example of what it is to be a coach in the same manner. The AFL already has the equivalent of both Defensive or Offensive Co-ordinators. We just call them Midfield coaches (eg. Robert Harvey, Dean Laidley) etc.

Topping up is another way of saying 'hey coach, if this is the sort of player you need (read: another versatile back flanker or defensive forward) we'll get the best one we can find at short notice and you can use them to your own end. Sometimes the board force their hand and you no longer have a stalwart of your system, as Watters has had to experience through the Goddard fiasco.

Sydney currently have the oldest list, however they just won a premiership. Age is irrelevant. Man management both mentally and physically is king, and one slip can cause an irrepairable rift or consideration of a managerial perspective.

To be a 'career coach' is to build a system based on what is available to you regardless of overall ability. Ross Lyon played for Fitzroy. Did he go out and declare he wanted to be coach of Brisbane? Why did both Lyon and Roos find Sydney a more viable option to ply their trade? Was it because his father played a tiny number of games for South Melbourne? Why did Lyon select Elshaug as a member of his coaching staff even though he had no prior link to St.Kilda whatsoever?

Too many pretend they're reading between the lines and thinking macro when they're really thinking micro. These are opinion bases that don't deserve the time of day. Pretension is an individual curse, unfortunately fostered by the media and lapped up by the mentally weak.

Another great post!

IIRC it was Essendon in 2009 that brought us undone? They show how to best our press. Part of it was leg speed.

Interesting comments re Collingwood as i have never thought of it that way. Yes they had kids, but the difference that I saw was that their team was even across the board. Their eveness was lauded. You are correct when you point out that we had known quantities. It's a bit like 1990 under Watson. Once they figured out that you stop Young.. you stop St Kilda.

My cousin is good tennis mates with Swan's housemate. He quoted Dayne as saying that St Kilda fans were fool for criticising Roo's performance in the GF. Becauser their #1 priority was to stop him, then Dal, then BJ.

When you have a team like ouras who relied on our stars playing at their best, you are always vulnerable. Role players were brought in to negate the negators.

Collingwood also used their interchange to great advantage in that their players played shorter more intensnese bursts and were rotated more often. This itself was a brilliant master stroke because it meant that a player would come on and apply manic pressure for 5 mins then have a rest.
 

mysainters

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Too many role players.

You just can't justify that all of Dempster/Mini/Eddy/Jones were required for lockdown?

Couple that with Ross pushing numbers back.

4 run with players

v

0 run with players...

+ goodness knows how many defenders and numbers behind the ball.

Clearly I overate the capacity of some of our guys to win a one on one battle?

Scott doesn't, see Joey/Dal/Fisher/BJ etc and how they were used this year...and how he was consistent in his message that our guys had lost the ability to play one on one.

I don't think it's too much to ask someone to concentrate on their direct opponent, and I'm looking forward to how that shapes out.

I don't want to hear 'but we didn't make finals this year' as some excuse to justify why Scotts way isn't as good, it's simply difference, and he deserves time to prove himself.
 
Love Watters focus and what he is trying to get from all players.

The competition for all places at the Saints this year will be intense. If he is selecting them on form and endeavour, we are in for an exciting year.

yep. THIS is the direction we need. Love Watters and the way he communicates.
Looking forward to this year. :thumbsu:
 
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Too many role players.

You just can't justify that all of Dempster/Mini/Eddy/Jones were required for lockdown?

Couple that with Ross pushing numbers back.

4 run with players

v

0 run with players...

+ goodness knows how many defenders and numbers behind the ball.

Clearly I overate the capacity of some of our guys to win a one on one battle?

Scott doesn't, see Joey/Dal/Fisher/BJ etc and how they were used this year...and how he was consistent in his message that our guys had lost the ability to play one on one.

I don't think it's too much to ask someone to concentrate on their direct opponent, and I'm looking forward to how that shapes out.

I don't want to hear 'but we didn't make finals this year' as some excuse to justify why Scotts way isn't as good, it's simply difference, and he deserves time to prove himself.

When Lyon took over the team dropped from 6th ( 56 points ) to 9th (46points) on the ladder.
2008 we were top 4 on a lousy 52 points.
2009 was 80 points.
2010 was 62 points for 3rd
2011 was 50 points for 6th.

I'm pretty happy with 48 points for a new coach in 2012. Especially when its easy to say where we could have found a few more games to win.
I can't believe that the team are not coming back from Colarado with a "winning" mindset.

The only question I have is whether we can fill the roles of the two experienced mature players who are no longer with us.
 

VDS66

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Too many role players.

You just can't justify that all of Dempster/Mini/Eddy/Jones were required for lockdown?

Couple that with Ross pushing numbers back.

4 run with players

v

0 run with players...

+ goodness knows how many defenders and numbers behind the ball.

Clearly I overate the capacity of some of our guys to win a one on one battle?

Scott doesn't, see Joey/Dal/Fisher/BJ etc and how they were used this year...and how he was consistent in his message that our guys had lost the ability to play one on one.

I don't think it's too much to ask someone to concentrate on their direct opponent, and I'm looking forward to how that shapes out.

I don't want to hear 'but we didn't make finals this year' as some excuse to justify why Scotts way isn't as good, it's simply difference, and he deserves time to prove himself.

Lyon is big on structures. It was a matter of trust. Once again it's easy with hindsight.. then again a few good shots at goal and he'd have gone down as an absolute genius. Reality is he came very very close.

My sources are very good so I'll back myself on what went on and why.

Still, others know better.
 

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Need to bring out the Lyin effigy, burn it and move on. We lost, we weren't good enough. Lyin wasn't good enough.
 

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