Newsflash: Essendon found guilty of salary cap breach

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by Deej
Both suggestions imply that the AFL is corrupt and inconsistent, something that I have thought since about 3 months before black friday last year.

Put yourself in our shoes, forget the club rivalry stuff, it looks from our point of view that they're going to go light on Essendon for what is basically a similar offence using a different strategy. Again, the words of Ron Evans, "there is no room for cheating in the AFL". Now suddenly it's his club involved and the AFL are playing it all down, preparing everyone for a light sentence. Honestly, what are we supposed to think about this as Carlton fans?

Why should I pay my membership dues next year when we're in a competition that is so corrupt and rigged and has purposefully decided to hold us down at the foot of the ladder for a period of years, when they let other clubs get let off almost scott free?

If Collo put a vote to the members about us wanting to remain in this competition, or voluntarily fold and bring to an end our clubs 140 year history, I would vote fold. I'm sick to death of it. AFL absolutely sucks.

Might be joining a local club next year I think.
As much as i hate to say it, but this poster has some valid points.

Carlton is being held down by the severe penalties imposed for recidivist cheating of the salary cap. Arguing the penalties have been done to death. lets just say that under the Salary Cap and national draft rules, I believe the penalties to be grossly unfair.

Anyway, we now have recidivist cheater No.2. They have consistently cheated the Salary cap, and have had the most form out of any team in the comp apart from Carlton. The "crime" may be of a lesser one than Carltons previous, however as they have been caught several times before, shouldn't the CEO of the AFL be a bit more circumspect in his comments before{ the hearing?

The point is that while one recidivist cheater gets smashed, and wrecked for seasons to come, the other recidivist gets a slap on the wrist.

Something here does not add up.
 

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morgoth

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I agree with Deej also, it sux the way this is being swept under the carpet. I strongly suspect that the reason is Essendon's threat to challenge the whole salary cap/draft arrangement.

I would love to see a super 12 team in Melbourne, I want to go to a comp where the best play the best and they all compete on a level playing field. My beef is different in that I hate the salary cap concessions that have allowed Brisbane to keep their team together when others can't.

End result is the same I am fed up with AFL and its inequalities. Inequalities always exist but when they are forced by the governing body it makes me gag.
 

Pevers-Legend

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I think you all might be missing the point. Essendon consulted with Lawyers and believed they were within their rights to make those internet deals - and at the hearing will say so. They have been forthcoming and open throughout the investigation. Yes they may have done something wrong - but it was not massive rorting - we are talking about a couple of payments which the club believed was within their right to make.

Compare this with Calrton who knowingly and delibveratley broke the cap and lied about player payments - was not helpful in the process and was massively rorting the cap.

Chalk and cheese boys.
 

morgoth

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You pay lawyers to tell you what you want to hear! They are paid by you to find a way to do something and argue it is legal.

For me it is a simple question:

Was the payment linked to their employment as paid players for the Essendon football club?

Yes, legals, forethright etc don't matter, it really pretty simple.
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by morgoth
End result is the same I am fed up with AFL and its inequalities. Inequalities always exist but when they are forced by the governing body it makes me gag.
You must hate it when the governing body gives Collingwobble all those freebies then, or is it only other clubs you dont like seeing get legups?
 

MarkT

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Originally posted by Joffaboy
You must hate it when the governing body gives Collingwobble all those freebies then, or is it only other clubs you dont like seeing get legups?
I extra home match against Essendon every few years?
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by morgoth
Pevers

You pay lawyers to tell you what you want to hear! They are paid by you to find a way to do something and argue it is legal.

For me it is a simple question:

Was the payment linked to their employment as paid players for the Essendon football club?

Yes, legals, forethright etc don't matter, it really pretty simple.
Have to agree on this.

Essendon have poorly managed their list for the past three or so years, banking on Salary Cap increases and extra allowances re the veterans list. When these didn't come to fruition they have had to shed numerous players and do dodgy deals with others.

Recidivist salary cap rorters. Should be severely punished.

What will a $50k fine achieve? glory be all at Bomberland. They will grab a bundle of $100's they use as a doorstop at the club and sling it into the AFL poor box.

Nothing less than severe draft pick restrictions will finally teach them not to cheat. I cant see Carlton cheating in future, but Essendon will be another matter with a wrist slap and thats it.
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by MarkT
I extra home match against Essendon every few years?
Yep, thats all. believe that if you like Mark, I'm not in the mood for a 6 page discussion on the blockbuster system, the Equalisation fund, the effect that the advantaged clubs (no the Saints aren't one of them) get financially over non blockbuster clubs, the fact that while Freo have been around the advantage Collingwobble have had over team like the Saints (Saints have gone there 16 times to Collingwobble 8 - a distinct advantage) etc etc etc.

Actually the thread is about how Essendon continually rort the Cap and get away with it while the other serial rorter in Carlton have been decimated.

Morgoth is pushing his anti cap barrow plainly pointing at the 3 time Premiers $700k advantage, while ignoring the obvious advantages the Pies recieve. Just a little jolt for his memory, thats all :)
 

morgoth

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Joffa

We all have our beefs with the AFL, mine is concessions, yours is blockbusters.

In the free market blockbusters would still occur for well followed teams so I would not be to worried if they were not mandated.
 

MarkT

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Originally posted by morgoth
Yes, legals, forethright etc don't matter, it really pretty simple.
In principle yes but where it matters is in a challange. If the rules are not tight enough then they could be challanged. this would not only give Essendon a possible out from any poenalty but impact the whole salary cap and have a flow on effect to other issues such as the draft. Whether it is right or wrong, if Essenodon have a good argument from a legal perspective they have the upper hand.
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by morgoth
Joffa

We all have our beefs with the AFL, mine is concessions, yours is blockbusters.

In the free market blockbusters would still occur for well followed teams so I would not be to worried if they were not mandated.
Until there is a 30 round H&A, and all clubs are on the same Salary Cap, the competition will not be equal. That is quite true.

Unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world and this wont happen. You premis about a free market is also slightly off. by definition the AFL cannot be free market, but I do understand what you are driving at.

Getting back to the thread subject, if find myself in agreeance with both yourself and Deej, which has to be a first, but something smells about the whole process re Essendon and its continual rorting.
 

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Deej

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I don't agree that Essendon should be stripped of draft picks, I think they should be fined heavily though and also stripped of premiership points for next year.

I disagree with any team ever being excluded from the draft, for whatever reason. It's just too much of a penalty and even if the club sweeps the broom and goes absolutely squeeky clean for the next decade they still pay a massive price the entire time. That is just too much for any club.

A $2 million dollar fine and 12 premiership points lost would be suffice. That is in my eyes harsh, and it would hurt the bombers to the point of teaching the lesson req'd. With a lesser club you'd revise the fine but only marginally.
 

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Lets have a system similar to the NRL.

If we had that in place, Carlton would have started of with -50 points for the 2003 because of their penalty.

If Essendon is found guilty and it is only a minor infraction of the rules, they would start of with -12 points for the 2004 season.

If the teams were deducted premiership points instead of losing players in the draft and having a fine, wouldn't that stop a lot of the rorting?
 

morgoth

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Correct Joffa, the difference is that Essendon is well organised and is financially the strongest of the Vic clubs. Carlton was in dissaray with a messy stouch for control of the club and financial pressures. Carlton could not affort to fight and was at the mercy of the AFL.

Essendon was not and threatened the AFL and the AFL rolled. Rotten Ron Evans stinks and has for a long time but we don't have any true investigative journalists involved in the sport, just a bunch of yes men writing popular crap.

The only hope is that the presidents of the clubs insist on higher penalties as they did to Carlton.
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by morgoth
Correct Joffa, the difference is that Essendon is well organised and is financially the strongest of the Vic clubs. Carlton was in dissaray with a messy stouch for control of the club and financial pressures. Carlton could not affort to fight and was at the mercy of the AFL.

Essendon was not and threatened the AFL and the AFL rolled. Rotten Ron Evans stinks and has for a long time but we don't have any true investigative journalists involved in the sport, just a bunch of yes men writing popular crap.

The only hope is that the presidents of the clubs insist on higher penalties as they did to Carlton.
The quickest way to glory be the only true national football comp would be to challenge the Cap and draft in court. In five years there would be six AFL clubs (Coll, Essendon, Carlton, Port, Crows, Eagles). This would srink the AFL, srink TV coverage, disenfranchise qtr mill paid up members from the other clubs, and disenfranchise 10 times that many unfinancial supporters.

Each team could play each other 4 times a year with each game a blockbuster. See how long that is fresh for.

If any team successfully takes the AFL to court, the AFL will be finished in a decade.
 

morgoth

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Yep and because the AFL are aware that it will not stand up in court they will roll to any club that seriously threatens them.

The only thing that makes the system work is the fact that it makes sense provided it is applied fairly. By letting a repeat offender off lightly is sends a very bad message.

Carlton fans are going to go ballistic if they get off lightly and who knows what may happen as a result.
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by morgoth
Yep and because the AFL are aware that it will not stand up in court they will roll to any club that seriously threatens them.

Why would a pig headed short sighted power club want to glory be the AFL competition. They may last longer than some of the smaller clubs but in the end they sign their own death warrant.

It is really quite stupid.

The only thing that makes the system work is the fact that it makes sense provided it is applied fairly. By letting a repeat offender off lightly is sends a very bad message.

Agreed

Carlton fans are going to go ballistic if they get off lightly and who knows what may happen as a result.

They will have every right to.
 

MarkT

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Originally posted by Deej
I don't agree that Essendon should be stripped of draft picks, I think they should be fined heavily though and also stripped of premiership points for next year.

I disagree with any team ever being excluded from the draft, for whatever reason. It's just too much of a penalty and even if the club sweeps the broom and goes absolutely squeeky clean for the next decade they still pay a massive price the entire time. That is just too much for any club.

A $2 million dollar fine and 12 premiership points lost would be suffice. That is in my eyes harsh, and it would hurt the bombers to the point of teaching the lesson req'd. With a lesser club you'd revise the fine but only marginally.
The problem with fines Deej is different clubs have different capacities to pay. A $2m fine for Essendon means they only have a few mil left in the bank that they can't spend anyway, whereas a $2m fine for the Dog's means they are liquidated and thereby out of the competition completely and forever. That is unless the AFL bails them out and pays their own fine which makes the whole thing even more of a joke.

The premiership points is worth considering because it affects every team in the same way. My only reservation is that it could be worked around. Say Collingwood do a deal to get Gardiner from West Coast after offering him a 5 year deal worth $500k p.a. with a (secret) sign on fee of $2m. They then sign Brown, Stevens, Rawlings and a few others via the pre season draft where these players put $1m on their heads for 2004. Collingwood then exceed the cap in 2004 by front loading 5 year contracts and chuck in a few front loaded deals for a few others. Let’s say 50% comes within the first year and the players then lend 50% of that money to the club which is offset against wages for 2 years just to ensure the cash flow is there to make it work. Then the club comes clean and cops a 3 or 4 match penalty for 2005. They may just back themselves after winning the 2004 premiership to still make the top 4 giving the rest a 3 or match start.

It's a bit far fetched but unless the penalties are more like 4 or 5 games per $50k over and they are for 2 or 3 seasons I can't see a massive deterrent if a club wanted to deliberately have a go.

I personally favour draft penalties for a few reasons. Firstly, they affect every club. Secondly, the club that cheats stays up by virtue of their cheating so IMO they should be held down as payback. Thirdly, the mere fact that early draft picks are like gold these days makes the draft penalties severe enough to act as a deterrent.

I also think it is important to distinguish between outright cheating and poor administration. Deliberate acts such as described above, duel contracts, 3rd party remuneration, cash under the table etc should be punished severely whereas minor breaches for, say, very heavy injuries tolls or the like should be treated less severely. Possibly with a combination of fines/pre season draft picks/points.
 

MarkT

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Originally posted by Joffaboy
Why would a pig headed short sighted power club want to glory be the AFL competition. They may last longer than some of the smaller clubs but in the end they sign their own death warrant.

It is really quite stupid.
Only if they actually believe the doomsday prophets from AFL HQ. You make certain assumptions about a deregulated environment that you assume to be true. I personally disagree with you and it is possible that others also do. The reality is the doomsday prophets have no real evidence as is the case with all such cult beliefs.
 

Deej

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Originally posted by Joffaboy
Originally posted by morgoth
Carlton fans are going to go ballistic if they get off lightly and who knows what may happen as a result.

They will have every right to.
Damn right, I'll be ****ing seething, and I'll have a pretty justified claim we were victimised too and accordingly all the hundreds of insults hurled toward me and others on here for claiming as much should then be complimented with an apology.

We all looked so stupid claiming unfair treatment, conspiracy, people sending us up saying the gunman on the grassy knowl probably had something to do with our punishments, whinge moan blah blah, but what if we weren't far from the mark the whole time?
 

morgoth

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Deej

I still think you got the treatment you deserved but if Essendon get off lightly then you have been ripped off. Up to know we have not really had much to compare your penalties to but we will have as of next week

Yes Freo, but really, never made a profit and fighting for survival, like the AFL would do anyting to them?
 

Deej

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Originally posted by MarkT
The problem with fines Deej is different clubs have different capacities to pay. A $2m fine for Essendon means they only have a few mil left in the bank that they can't spend anyway, whereas a $2m fine for the Dog's means they are liquidated and thereby out of the competition completely and forever.
Premiership points in conjunction with a monetary fine would be the best answer in my opinion. With Essendon Collingwood Adelaide West Coast etc you'd fine them more obviously, but the chances of a financially challenged club like the doggies breaking the cap are nearly none anyway so I doubt your example would ever happen. I think a formula should be struck that includes a clubs financial performance over the last 5 years and uses those figures to devise a maximum fine without putting a club out of business.

Regardless, I still think draft picks should never be touched under any circumstances. They are just too important to to many innocent parties associated.
 

Deej

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Originally posted by morgoth
Deej

I still think you got the treatment you deserved but if Essendon get off lightly then you have been ripped off. Up to know we have not really had much to compare your penalties to but we will have as of next week

Yes Freo, but really, never made a profit and fighting for survival, like the AFL would do anyting to them?
And another thing, the AFL fast-tracked Carlton's investigation to get those draft picks off us and now a year later it turns out Essendon broke the cap and probably shouldn't have had a lot of involvement in last year's draft either, and so if Essendon broke the cap it is possible StKilda broke it too, and Collingwood, and Adelaide, and Port, and who knows maybe every club broke it and shouldn't have been included in this draft, but nope the Saints got Goddard, North got Wells, and you all know the rest. See this was our point, you just don't know until every club is thoroughly investigated like we were WHICH WAS PROMISED BUT HAS NOT HAPPENED. Nope, the way it happened is the AFL bulldozed through our punishment to get us in last years draft. It's just a pity they haven't shown the same enthusiasm for every club that's all.

And yet everyone was portraying us to be whinging bleating twits with no leg to stand on.

Hmmm....
 

Joffaboy

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Originally posted by MarkT
Absolutely basless and unrealistic in the extreme.
Well, lets have a look. in the regulated AFL, the AFL auditors advised there are 7 clubs in financial difficulty, it is not a great stretch of the imagination that another three clubs would fall over in a deregulated competition. I would say within 5 years 7 vic based clubs, and the clubs from the non AFL states would be gone, Freo would most likely be gone also. That would leave 6 Super clubs.

These Super clubs would play three games a round. Would you get $500 mill over five years with three games a round on TV, no exposure in Syd and Bris, and possibly only one otr two games a round in Vic? Highly unlikely.

From the ten clubs to go from the comp there are over 200,000 paid up members and ten times that amount in non financial supporters. So there is likely to be over a minium of 2 million disenfranchised AFL supporters.

As Sydney and Brisbane wont survive there will be no growth in the game.

So not only will the game srink in the non AFL states, the bulk of the support for AFL in the main AFL stronghold will be decimated.

You may think this is baseless, however if 7 clubs are still in financial trouble in a heavily regulated AFL, how in hell would they, and another three survive in a deregulated market?

blockbusters every game of every round? How fresh will that stay? hope they enjoy shaking hands with each other cause they will be doing it ever 6 weeks.

A deregulated AFL will make the Super League and its damage look like kids stuff.
 
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