Next week will be tricky

[MarkJohnson#1]

Tanking is for plebs like Carlton. I'd take a win any day of the week than a chance at a higher draft pick, that's what I support footy for, for my team to go out and bust a gut for me and show some spirit, not to give away games in the hope of securing a higher pick which mind you is no guarantee of selecting a better player.

To tanking in football, Essendon (and their supporters) says NO!

 

[wce_all_da_way]

windy, if West Coast win will you wave your jacket with our supporters?

 

[Daytripper]

Right, now I'm really p1ssed off.

I am heartily offended at the suggestion that because I (and others here) want to actually see Essendon win a flag that I am somehow a traitor or non-supporter.

Let me lay it out for you as I (and I suspect others) see it:

1. The system is COMMUNIST!!! It deliberately attempts to redistribute player talent so that there is a theoretical equalisation.
2. There is no getting around the system! The lower you finish, the higher the rewards.
3. The system SUCKS!!!
4. Our chances of winning a flag this year are non-existent!
5. Our trading was so poor during the 2000-2004 period that we are not just a little way off winning a flag, but a miracle away.
6. It is time to work the stupid, broken system for all we can get out of it. We need to lie back and just think of England!

This logic is hardly flawless, but it does have great explanatory power. It does not take into account the negative value of losing each week on morale or on development. But, for that, it cannot be said to be the philosophy of someone who does not love the team.

I can’t quite bring myself to WANT the dons to lose, but I sure don’t want to win this season until it is safe to do so. I used to think that teams that tanked were low-lives. I still do, but that is how the game works from now on. We are all made unclean by this stinking system that makes us want the opposite of what we should want in order to ultimately get what we want. And believe me when I tell you that I do not for one moment believe that the players are trying to lose. That is just a nonsense. This is only about what we as supporters are hoping and praying for each week and over the next few years. It is about how WE feel.

I feel dirty. I feel degraded. I want to throw up. At the end of every game I try not to break things and am glad I don’t have a dog, or he would surely get it. My head tries to comfort my heart. Then I grit my teeth and try to generate some passion for a Dockers, Weagles or Demons victory that weekend that will seal the deal by pushing that team above us on the table.

God I hate this. I don’t even WANT to believe what I am saying, but I find the logic inescapable. As a supporter, I can no longer justify wins that earn us pride because the cost of that pride is so high that it means that pride in defeat is all that we will have for the next ten years.

At least we nearly beat Adelaide. In this upside down world, nearly winning is the best I can hope for.

So for the haters, I understand why you don’t want us to lose, I even concede that there are valid reasons why a win might be helpful for the existing talent on our list. But for those of us who have come to the soul-destroying conclusion (right or wrong), that finishing last is the best way forward in this stupid system, a little bit of a break from accusations that we are traitors or not real supporters would be welcomed.

Please. This is all bad enough as it is.

The success of teams like Adelaide, Port Adelaide, Sydney, Geelong and recently Brisbane all make a mockery of your tanking argument.

Please don't try and justify wanting us to lose. Its just a cop out to make supporters feel better when we don't preform as well as we should.

We should be going all out to win three games in the next month. And if we get beaten then we should be disappointed. Not F***KING happy about it.

 

[Longy413]

Actually it is now Merv Keane that has to stand up

Thought Dodoro still had the last say?

 

[Merv]

The success of teams like Adelaide, Port Adelaide, Sydney, Geelong and recently Brisbane all make a mockery of your tanking argument.

All those teams also have 1 thing in common, apart from Geelong, and they have the F/S rule that has done them some very nice favours in recent years and which without, they would most probably not have won the flag.

It is very different for Vic clubs.

 

[Daytripper]

All those teams also have 1 thing in common, apart from Geelong, and they have the F/S rule that has done them some very nice favours in recent years and which without, they would most probably not have won the flag.

It is very different for Vic clubs.

All those clubs have had longevity in the top 8. Brisbane have fought back from their slump in 05 and 06 without any high picks. Ditto Port Adelaide and Adelaide.

Sydney don't even believe in the draft system and there is an argument to say that they are correct given they are probably the most successful club in the modern era.

Look at Richmond. How has Deledio (the next Judd according to all at draft time) helped them ?
Carlton have three no 1 picks yet all they have to show for it so far are wins over West Coast, Fremantle (both in Vic), Melbourne (terrible) which are are expected for any team and good wins over Port and Collingwood. They are still no world beaters though.
Would the Bulldogs still be a good team without Cooney ?
I think they would. Its not like they would plummet to the bottom of the ladder without him put it that way.

You get a good squad by not wasting your picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and by using your rookie picks wisely. First round picks are great but they do not turn a team around.

 

[ant555]

Thought Dodoro still had the last say?

He does as list manager but he has a team under him now that do more of the work involved with sorting out who they are going after and putting together the profiles of the kids in the draft.
You don't hire some one to be your head recruting coindator if you are going still to be running around and doing all the ground work.
Thats why Merv Keane and his team need to be on the ball so to speak.

 

[SirJimi05]

Right, now I'm really p1ssed off.

I am heartily offended at the suggestion that because I (and others here) want to actually see Essendon win a flag that I am somehow a traitor or non-supporter.

Let me lay it out for you as I (and I suspect others) see it:

1. The system is COMMUNIST!!! It deliberately attempts to redistribute player talent so that there is a theoretical equalisation.
2. There is no getting around the system! The lower you finish, the higher the rewards.
3. The system SUCKS!!!
4. Our chances of winning a flag this year are non-existent!
5. Our trading was so poor during the 2000-2004 period that we are not just a little way off winning a flag, but a miracle away.
6. It is time to work the stupid, broken system for all we can get out of it. We need to lie back and just think of England!

This logic is hardly flawless, but it does have great explanatory power. It does not take into account the negative value of losing each week on morale or on development. But, for that, it cannot be said to be the philosophy of someone who does not love the team.

I can’t quite bring myself to WANT the dons to lose, but I sure don’t want to win this season until it is safe to do so. I used to think that teams that tanked were low-lives. I still do, but that is how the game works from now on. We are all made unclean by this stinking system that makes us want the opposite of what we should want in order to ultimately get what we want. And believe me when I tell you that I do not for one moment believe that the players are trying to lose. That is just a nonsense. This is only about what we as supporters are hoping and praying for each week and over the next few years. It is about how WE feel.

I feel dirty. I feel degraded. I want to throw up. At the end of every game I try not to break things and am glad I don’t have a dog, or he would surely get it. My head tries to comfort my heart. Then I grit my teeth and try to generate some passion for a Dockers, Weagles or Demons victory that weekend that will seal the deal by pushing that team above us on the table.

God I hate this. I don’t even WANT to believe what I am saying, but I find the logic inescapable. As a supporter, I can no longer justify wins that earn us pride because the cost of that pride is so high that it means that pride in defeat is all that we will have for the next ten years.

At least we nearly beat Adelaide. In this upside down world, nearly winning is the best I can hope for.

So for the haters, I understand why you don’t want us to lose, I even concede that there are valid reasons why a win might be helpful for the existing talent on our list. But for those of us who have come to the soul-destroying conclusion (right or wrong), that finishing last is the best way forward in this stupid system, a little bit of a break from accusations that we are traitors or not real supporters would be welcomed.

Please. This is all bad enough as it is.

For all of you who could not be bothered reading through this essay length post, let me break it down for you - Stormboy want's to TANK!!!!!

 

[SirJimi05]

All those clubs have had longevity in the top 8. Brisbane have fought back from their slump in 05 and 06 without any high picks. Ditto Port Adelaide and Adelaide.

Sydney don't even believe in the draft system and there is an argument to say that they are correct given they are probably the most successful club in the modern era.

Look at Richmond. How has Deledio (the next Judd according to all at draft time) helped them ?
Carlton have three no 1 picks yet all they have to show for it so far are wins over West Coast, Fremantle (both in Vic), Melbourne (terrible) which are are expected for any team and good wins over Port and Collingwood. They are still no world beaters though.
Would the Bulldogs still be a good team without Cooney ?
I think they would. Its not like they would plummet to the bottom of the ladder without him put it that way.

You get a good squad by not wasting your picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and by using your rookie picks wisely. First round picks are great but they do not turn a team around.

Daytripper, you can't compare interstate clubs with Victorian ones. Interstate clubs basically have to be very poor not to make the top 8. They have such a massive home ground advantage and if they win all of their home games, which they should, they are certain to play finals. Having said this, i do agree that high picks do not guarantee club success. It is generally the middle to low picks which are the more important factor in building a good squad.

 

[Merv]

All those clubs have had longevity in the top 8. Brisbane have fought back from their slump in 05 and 06 without any high picks. Ditto Port Adelaide and Adelaide.

Sydney don't even believe in the draft system and there is an argument to say that they are correct given they are probably the most successful club in the modern era.

Look at Richmond. How has Deledio (the next Judd according to all at draft time) helped them ?
Carlton have three no 1 picks yet all they have to show for it so far are wins over West Coast, Fremantle (both in Vic), Melbourne (terrible) which are are expected for any team and good wins over Port and Collingwood. They are still no world beaters though.
Would the Bulldogs still be a good team without Cooney ?
I think they would. Its not like they would plummet to the bottom of the ladder without him put it that way.

You get a good squad by not wasting your picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and by using your rookie picks wisely. First round picks are great but they do not turn a team around.

Part of the reason all those teams have had longevity in the top 8 is because they are interstate teams and that comes with a lot of avdantages in comparison to Vic Clubs.

Geelong has won a premiership virtually on the F/S rule.

You are right, it isn't always the picks you get but how you use them but by getting earlier picks you increase your chances of drafting quality and the ability to draft on a needs basis.

I sort of have a foot in both camps as i want to win games but i want early picks

I need to pick a side.

 

[SirJimi05]

Part of the reason all those teams have had longevity in the top 8 is because they are interstate teams and that comes with a lot of avdantages in comparison to Vic Clubs.

Geelong has won a premiership virtually on the F/S rule.

You are right, it isn't always the picks you get but how you use them but by getting earlier picks you increase your chances of drafting quality and the ability to draft on a needs basis.

I sort of have a foot in both camps as i want to win games but i want early picks

I need to pick a side.

Be strong Merv, the dark side is evil.....

 

[Daytripper]

Part of the reason all those teams have had longevity in the top 8 is because they are interstate teams and that comes with a lot of avdantages in comparison to Vic Clubs.

Geelong has won a premiership virtually on the F/S rule.

You are right, it isn't always the picks you get but how you use them but by getting earlier picks you increase your chances of drafting quality and the ability to draft on a needs basis.

I sort of have a foot in both camps as i want to win games but i want early picks

I need to pick a side.

We are going to get a top 4 pick. Fremantle and West Coast will certainly win a few more games at home. Once they get some players back and fully fit they should win at least another three games each in my opinion.

Melbourne look a lost cause and Richmonds wheels could fall off now that they have gotten a few injuries (I can't believe people actually thought they had improved).

So in reality we are looking at pick 2 or 3 and finishing on about 5 or 6 wins for the season. Even 7 wins could be sufficient to still finish 14th.

Put your foot in the wanting to win games camp please, Merv.

Believe me, it is far better for our development than losing games. After all we have had three top 7 picks in three years and are still no better off. What makes everyone think another one is going to be a magic elixer ?

There is just no basis to that thinking.

 

[Jesse Custer]

We will be finishing bottom 4. You will find that young players bounce back quickly and brush off losses easier than we think. I dont believe that we need to win in order to develop. Playing the game each week on opposition stars should be enough for their development. Learn where to run and when to run for example. Surely enough losses will galvanise the club and players into action, otherwise we need to clean the whole club out. At the end of the day, doesnt matter where you finish, you still have to make the right choices at the draft. Memo to recruiting department: dont waste our picks. All we need is a couple of correct picks and we could rise up the ladder very quickly next year.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

People advocating tanking have to realise what the term actually means in todays climate.

Tanking is when you start playing all you kids and hope they are competitive and win games.

We are currently doing that and have been since the injuries hit.

I'd rather see the kids we are playing now win a few games because that will mean they are developing well and are better than we first thought.

What would you rather have?

4-6 more wins with a few of these guys playing big roles and contributing and getting better - Houli, Myers, Jetta, Neagle, Gumbleton, Reimers, Lonergan, Dempsey, Pears, Daniher, Hislop, Hocking.

or

Losing almost every game so we get Rich or Natunui.

 

[daffo]

I wish we were playing WCE a month or so ago when they had Kerr and Priddis out, as well as Cox playing injured.
I think we can beat West Coast, but i'll be tipping them. Carlton the week after will be our next victory.

 

[MarkJohnson#1]

I wish we were playing WCE a month or so ago when they had Kerr and Priddis out, as well as Cox playing injured.
I think we can beat West Coast, but i'll be tipping them. Carlton the week after will be our next victory.

As much as I hate Carlton, I would've thought we'd have a better chance beating West Coast down here than Carlton on recent form.

 

[Daytripper]

As much as I hate Carlton, I would've thought we'd have a better chance beating West Coast down here than Carlton on recent form.

Except for that win against Port, Carlton's form has been only fair to ordinary and lets face it, they only played one good quarter against Port anyway.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

This more than any other post sums my feelings up , well put Ant. I still go to every game and yell myself absolutely hoarse, ride every kick and contest. Some of you may know me from the grog squad and know I`m probably louder and more energetic when we are getting pumped than I am when we are on top/winning.
And benny the gooner, who are you again son ?

Who am I? I am a true fan - one who wants to win regardless of the cost.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Does it really matter - if tnaking is playing the kids - then Knighhts has been tanking for quite a few rounds.

I hate that I didn't feel bad with a loss when I went osee Adelaide. I wanted a win, but in this stoopid world, an honorable loss is better.

You do have to draft well in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but you also have better talnet available the lower you are in each of rounds. And don't forget Carltank got Judd through tanking. Who wouldn't love to have that mercenary playing for you.

I prefer to win and I hope we do for the young kids - as long as we finsih bottom four we will get a good kid no doubt. I am opposed to tanking, but our coach is doing it for us, because the system has to be played.

And do you think Thomas and Pndelbury make no difference to Collingwood?

Do you think Franklin and Roughhead have made no difference to Hawthorn?

Early picks can make an impact - just not immediate.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Except for that win against Port, Carlton's form has been only fair to ordinary and lets face it, they only played one good quarter against Port anyway.

Except their midfield will cut us to ribbons next time and we can nto stop Fevola - add that to their usual quota of arse goals (fck I hate Catlon) and I expect they will beat us.

I hope we beat Collingwood and knock em out of the top 4, that would be sweeter - ala 2006.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Does it really matter - if tnaking is playing the kids - then Knighhts has been tanking for quite a few rounds.

I hate that I didn't feel bad with a loss when I went osee Adelaide. I wanted a win, but in this stoopid world, an honorable loss is better.

You do have to draft well in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but you also have better talnet available the lower you are in each of rounds. And don't forget Carltank got Judd through tanking. Who wouldn't love to have that mercenary playing for you.

I prefer to win and I hope we do for the young kids - as long as we finsih bottom four we will get a good kid no doubt. I am opposed to tanking, but our coach is doing it for us, because the system has to be played.

And do you think Thomas and Pndelbury make no difference to Collingwood?

Do you think Franklin and Roughhead have made no difference to Hawthorn?

Early picks can make an impact - just not immediate.

There's a difference between playing the kids, and deliberately wanting to lose. Playing the kids can really be positive, but deliberately barracking against your team is something else.

 

[Jesse Custer]

Except their midfield will cut us to ribbons next time and we can nto stop Fevola - add that to their usual quota of arse goals (fck I hate Catlon) and I expect they will beat us.

I hope we beat Collingwood and knock em out of the top 4, that would be sweeter - ala 2006.

Their midfield cut us to ribbons last time as well. In fact our midfield gets destroyed every week. We wont win any games with our midfield at the moment. Its the most important position/area in the game and we are close to last.

 

[Daytripper]

And do you think Thomas and Pndelbury make no difference to Collingwood?

Do you think Franklin and Roughhead have made no difference to Hawthorn?

Completely different comparing two picks in the top five to one pick in the top 5. Apples and oranges.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

There is a good chance we won't win another game this year. To be honest that is fine, providing the kids improve. That is all I want. Prepare for 2009, hopefully get 4-5 maybe 6 or 7 wins in 2009. Then aim to really improve in 2010.

 

[Daytripper]

There is a good chance we won't win another game this year. To be honest that is fine, providing the kids improve. That is all I want. Prepare for 2009, hopefully get 4-5 maybe 6 or 7 wins in 2009. Then aim to really improve in 2010.

There is absoloutly no chance we won't win another game this year. None. Zero.
I will bet you any amount you want.