NGA - A complete rort

[sr36]

Exactly - the issue isn't northern vs NG academies, the issue is zoning vs San uncompromised draft. The AFL can set up academies to help.kids from areas/backgrounds that struggle with elite pathways to the draft/AFL, these do not have to be and should not be linked to particular clubs giving them priority pick access to kids some of whom would have been drafed regardless.

Making these compromises in the draft system makes a farce if the competition and yeah I'm happy to include father sons in that. It's nice to have it but it's a relic of an amateur competition that shouldn't be in place in a professional national competition.

The fact the AFL considers kids with one parent born overseas (is there an age restriction on this? Some people come here as infants and live their whole lives as Aussies, does that count?) as not having access to junior footy/elite pathways shows how far off the pulse of modern Australia they really are.

The AFL created a problem with northern academies and instead of rectifying that problem they exacerbated it by expanding these draft compromises across the entire league. Classic AFL.

It's an oval ball. Sometimes it bounces your way and sometimes it doesn't.

If the academies help kids who may have dropped out of the system stay involved and then go on and lead better lives, they're great for the game and the country. Who cares if the AFL draft is compromised (I'm not really sure why having a pure draft as the only means of selection should be a goal anyway) We just need to make sure that the ball has a chance to bounce in all teams directions, which wasn't the case when we only had the Northern academies, hence they opened up academies to other clubs. The zones won't be drawn perfectly so some clubs are going to get a slight advantage, but that's the luck of the draw.

 

[go_the_dockers]

They need to fix the points system straight away.

Make earlier picks worth more, and only apply the point discount to picks the club original had before trading.

It's an oval ball. Sometimes it bounces your way and sometimes it doesn't.

If the academies help kids who may have dropped out of the system stay involved and then go on and lead better lives, they're great for the game and the country. Who cares if the AFL draft is compromised (I'm not really sure why having a pure draft as the only means of selection should be a goal anyway) We just need to make sure that the ball has a chance to bounce in all teams directions, which wasn't the case when we only had the Northern academies, hence they opened up academies to other clubs. The zones won't be drawn perfectly so some clubs are going to get a slight advantage, but that's the luck of the draw.

Getting the right zone would make a big difference. Getting Tiwi islands get's you access to all future Rioli's.

I still feel the SA and WA clubs are screwed by only getting access to indigenous talent in remote areas.

 

[sr36]

I don't think any clubs in the modern game self-sabotage as "tanking" is proven to not work. Bad teams like Carlton, Melbourne 07-15, Brisbane, GC do tend to become talent sponges because of poor performance and recruiting. The hit to a club's reputation is motivation enough to move up the ladder ASAP..
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Tanking stopped working when they got rid of giving teams an extra top 5 priority pick, but before then I'd argue that Hawthorn and Collingwood benefited massively from tanking. Netted them Buddy and Pendlebury and helped lead to sustained periods at the top.

 

[Furn2]

All academies are a rort.

 

[telsor]

They should get rid of all academies, and the AFL should take more direct control of development/elite pathways.

Failing that, the points system should be adjusted so that the 'lucky' clubs (more fruitful academies and/or FS) receive less benefit....One solution could be that the more players a club gets, the more their discount is reduced.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

It was 200 for us and Freo, 150 for Port and Adelaide. Each one had year cut offs which is why Gibbs ended up being ineligible because his 250 games extended into the 90s. Why the distinction between WA and SA I don't know. I would have thought 150 or 200 games for all would be appropriate.

You've got it backwards. Its 150 games in WAFL sides for West Coast and Freo. Its 200 SANFL games for the Crows and Port.

As for Brett Ebert, he was taken as a father-son but it was later revealled that he shouldn't have been eligible. Because although Russell Ebert played 391 games for Port Adelaide, he played 25 games for North Melbourne in 1979. Only games after that North Melbourne stint were supposed to count, and that doesn't reach 200.

You can argue that North paid (slight) overs for Taryn Thomas, so i don't really see the problem here.

Nah, in the overall standing North still got a cheap deal. Without the NGA standing, North would've had to give up far more to be able to recruit Thomas and still trade for Jared Polec.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

They should get rid of all academies, and the AFL should take more direct control of development/elite pathways.

Failing that, the points system should be adjusted so that the 'lucky' clubs (more fruitful academies and/or FS) receive less benefit....One solution could be that the more players a club gets, the more their discount is reduced.

That assumes the AFL has the wherewithall to run them, and the evidence points in the other direction.

If you insist on ignoring the good the academies do in remote areas, at least acknowlege that our has assisted 16 players to an AFL debut so far, 5 for other clubs. That's not a mistake it's the academy doing it's job and the club likewise. They dont always align.

If the club wants small pressure forwards and the academy identifies a tall back with potential for example, all going well that player ends up drafted by another club.

 

[Scotland]

Essendon have done good work in the Tiwi Islands and are affiliated with the Tiwi Bombers.

Everyone cool with them having dibs on the next Rioli?

 

[Scotland]

You've got it backwards. Its 150 games in WAFL sides for West Coast and Freo. Its 200 SANFL games for the Crows and Port.

As for Brett Ebert, he was taken as a father-son but it was later revealled that he shouldn't have been eligible. Because although Russell Ebert played 391 games for Port Adelaide, he played 25 games for North Melbourne in 1979. Only games after that North Melbourne stint were supposed to count, and that doesn't reach 200.

You're right, I had it in my head that we got the better deal games wise then wrote it down the wrong way around. Point stands that different rules for WC/Freo vs Adel/Port makes little sense.

What a ridiculous clause that is.

Gary Ablett Jr has played 211 games for Geelong, not 192 and 19. If that was 92 and 19 there's no way his kid shouldn't be eligible under the F/S rules.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Essendon have done good work in the Tiwi Islands and are affiliated with the Tiwi Bombers.

Everyone cool with them having dibs on the next Rioli?

Given the work Sheedy's done in the top end for a long time anyway, yep.

 

[telsor]

That assumes the AFL has the wherewithall to run them, and the evidence points in the other direction.

If you insist on ignoring the good the academies do in remote areas, at least acknowlege that our has assisted 16 players to an AFL debut so far, 5 for other clubs. That's not a mistake it's the academy doing it's job and the club likewise. They dont always align.

If the club wants small pressure forwards and the academy identifies a tall back with potential for example, all going well that player ends up drafted by another club.

The AFL lacks the wherewithall to run them?
Are you suggesting they'd do less than the likes of St Kilda? Or that the money/resources they give to some clubs to run theirs couldn't be redirected? Every club gets <insert average amount clubs spend on academies> less in their distribution...Problem solved.

So GWS has assisted 16 players....How many of them wouldn't have made it anyway? I don't know the numbers, but if memory serves, most were from AFL regions anyway (Riverina particularly), and several of them were even playing TAC cup.

 

[telsor]

Essendon have done good work in the Tiwi Islands and are affiliated with the Tiwi Bombers.

Everyone cool with them having dibs on the next Rioli?

Nup...MJ is ours!

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

The AFL lacks the wherewithall to run them?
Are you suggesting they'd do less than the likes of St Kilda? Or that the money/resources they give to some clubs to run theirs couldn't be redirected? Every club gets <insert average amount clubs spend on academies> less in their distribution...Problem solved.

So GWS has assisted 16 players....How many of them wouldn't have made it anyway? I don't know the numbers, but if memory serves, most were from AFL regions anyway (Riverina particularly), and several of them were even playing TAC cup.

Ok I'll just correct the obvious.

Our academy is sponsor funded. It really is nonsense to say the AFL funds it. The AFL provided seed funding, as it has to all clubs for the NGA, to be seen to be fair.

Player development is a skilled undertaking and those skills are held by the clubs.

 

[telsor]

Ok I'll just correct the obvious.

Our academy is sponsor funded. It really is nonsense to say the AFL funds it. The AFL provided seed funding, as it has to all clubs for the NGA, to be seen to be fair.

Player development is a skilled undertaking and those skills are held by the clubs.

Then what's the say the same sponsors wouldn't sponsor an AFL run academy?

You do realise the same people who train AFL players generally don't train the academy kids, right? Those people can switch jobs easily enough.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Then what's the say the same sponsors wouldn't sponsor an AFL run academy?

You do realise the same people who train AFL players generally don't train the academy kids, right? Those people can switch jobs easily enough.

I doubt the the AFL could. We're actually mid range in terms of sponsorship revenue these days. The reason is Western Sydney is an attractive demograthic for corporation marketing budgets. It's arguable.

I absolutely realise the academy staff are different, and as I've said they actually have different goals.

They can be supported by the club staff and are though. There is crossover in the kids coming to the club to train and experience the system. Those without access to the TAC cup also come to Sydneyto play NEAFL at the appropriate time in their development. These are things clubs can do.

 

[telsor]

I doubt the the AFL could. We're actually mid range in terms of sponsorship revenue these days. The reason is Western Sydney is an attractive demograthic for corporation marketing budgets. It's arguable.

I absolutely realise the academy staff are different, and as I've said they actually have different goals.

They can be supported by the club staff and are though. There is crossover in the kids coming to the club to train and experience the system. Those without access to the TAC cup also come to Sydneyto play NEAFL at the appropriate time in their development. These are things clubs can do.

They're also things the AFL can do.

and lets not get ahead of ourselves...GWS being mid range for sponsorship is only with the inclusion of selling games to Canberra counting as 'sponsorship'.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

They're also things the AFL can do.

and lets not get ahead of ourselves...GWS being mid range for sponsorship is only with the inclusion of selling games to Canberra counting as 'sponsorship'.

We dont "sell" games to Canberra. Canberra is an integral part if what we are. We are sponsored by the ACT Govt though, that's true.

The difference in our relationship with Canberra and other clubs is we will play finals there.

 

[telsor]

We dont "sell" games to Canberra. Canberra is an integral part if what we are. We are sponsored by the ACT Govt though, that's true.

The difference in our relationship with Canberra and other clubs is we will play finals there.

If the ACT government stopped sponsoring you, would you still play games there?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

If the ACT government stopped sponsoring you, would you still play games there?

Haven't thought about it. I cant see us leaving, or the Govt wanting us out. The Spotless crowds are only just catching up with the Manuka atmosphere now after 7 years.

 

[The Warlord]

Essendon have done good work in the Tiwi Islands and are affiliated with the Tiwi Bombers.

Everyone cool with them having dibs on the next Rioli?

They did invent Aboriginal players with Michael Long the year after Phil Krakouer kicked a bag on them on a Friday night at the G, so it does seem only fair.

 

[legend166]

It's been a real masterstroke of AFL branding to somehow call everything an 'Academy' and even put everything on the same page on their website: http://www.afl.com.au/news/game-development/nab-afl-rising-star-program/nga-clubacademies

The Swans Academy has 700 kids in it. I'd be surprised to see 700 kids spread across the 14 next gen 'Academies'.

The problem with the AFL is, as always, they are stupid and never think things through. Due to their shortsightedness they've allowed the Northern Academies to be defined by anomalies like Blakey and the Giants with their ridiculous access to the Riverina.

The Riverina thing was dumb from the start but I think the AFL knew that and didn't care because they were looking for a way to give the upstart team a leg up. The Blakey one is much trickier - obviously when you're coming up with an Academy for players in non-football regions you're not thinking of the son of a coach who is eligible for F/S at another club. But I'm not sure what the answer is? Sorry son you're not allowed to join the Academy because North will get angry about it. Have fun in the Sydney junior leagues which has produced like 5 good players ever.

The simple fact is the best way to grow the game and improve the quality is to spread the talent base into the 50% of the country that produces basically no players relative to its population. The AFL has tried that in various ways, including the scholarship program and AFL run academies. They all flopped because the 'AFL' as a brand is much weaker than say, the 'Sydney Swans' in Sydney so you're not really attracting people; or because it was just a way the clubs could cherry pick the elite and not care about anyone else.

It's also the best way to try and reduce the inherent inequality that exists in the league when four teams have to build sides made out of players from out of state who at best will demand more money to stay or will simply walk back home after demanding a trade.

So what's the best way to get more NSW/QLD talent onto the lists of the NSW/QLD teams?

Now I fully understand the competitive balance concerns. That's why I'm all for vigorous controls are put in place so you don't have the situation where Heeney goes at 18, which they've done. But they should be looking at tweaking those pick values all the time and probably put it more controls around hoarding later picks to use bids on. But you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

On top of that, the AFL is the only professional league in the country using a draft. Which is great when you essentially have a monopoly on the sporting talent in a region but when you're a 12 year old thinking "Hmmm, I could join this AFL academy and be sent to Perth, or I could just go over here and play in the Newcastle Knights Juniors and just go into their senior side if I'm good enough." That's why it's so important to have pathways into the local clubs.

 

[Consolaçao]

Don’t worry, at the jerk of a knee it’ll be overturned and replaced with something different and less logical at some point in the future.

 

[Consolaçao]

But that's my argument. That the academies, both northern and multicultural, are about more than just development pathways and are tied into the marketing/promotion of the sport and the clubs.

The AFL wants kids up north having access to pathways. But they also want to saturate the states with branding for the four clubs, and have kids feel "part" of the club and have the clubs associated with all levels of footy and junior footy in the state. It's why, in addition to the academies in themselves, if you go to a state high school in NSW and your school is one of the few that puts together a footy team, you're playing for the "Swans Cup" or the "Giants Cup".

That's also true with the NGA academies. For the same reason that we have a multicultural round and multicultural ambassadors to appeal to Australia's recent migrant population, an element of these academies is part of a marketing strategy. It is a lot easier to market the club of Western Bulldogs to the Footscray Vietnamese community if a player from that community plays for the Western Bulldogs, even at the cost of undermining the "pure" purpose of the draft to some extent to make that happen. It would be kind of silly to invest in wanting this community to support the Dogs and all of the Dogs' community work to be undone, should that player get drafted to another Melbourne club and swathes of that community stop supporting the Dogs in spite of all their previous work. It's not just about making it easier for this Vietnamese kid who might play in a team with no other Vietnamese players (the development angle, although it is a part of it), its to also be part of the AFL's multicultural marketing strategy.

I think you’ve nailed it. It’s about marketing, it’s about optics. The AFL wants to look cosmopolitan by trotting our non-Anglo kids so they can counter the idea that footy is a white person’s game. The problem is that, for all the putative benefits (and I don’t disagree that expanding footy into underrepresented communities is a good thing) the integrity of the competition suffers (once more) because of the AFL’s obsession with its image.
Unfortunately the AFL administration seem totally at sea when it comes to balancing the competing objectives around growing the game and running a competition.
For me, this is further evidence of the need for restructuring the governance of Australian football, by splitting what is presently the AFL into two entities: one responsible for administering the League, and another completely independent organisation to run the sport.

 

[Pykie]

It's been a real masterstroke of AFL branding to somehow call everything an 'Academy' and even put everything on the same page on their website: http://www.afl.com.au/news/game-development/nab-afl-rising-star-program/nga-clubacademies

The Swans Academy has 700 kids in it. I'd be surprised to see 700 kids spread across the 14 next gen 'Academies'.
.

North's academy has 318 kids in it from Tasmania alone and is only 3 years old, so get surprised.

Unlike Sydney and the northern acadamies, The NGA academies develop kids that they don't have exclusive access to.

Can you say the same about your academy? You're only doing it for your own benefit.

The Riverina thing was dumb from the start but I think the AFL knew that and didn't care because they were looking for a way to give the upstart team a leg up. The Blakey one is much trickier - obviously when you're coming up with an Academy for players in non-football regions you're not thinking of the son of a coach who is eligible for F/S at another club. But I'm not sure what the answer is? Sorry son you're not allowed to join the Academy because North will get angry about it. Have fun in the Sydney junior leagues which has produced like 5 good players ever.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-11-27/sydneys-littleknown-footy-factory-produces-yet-again

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Unlike Sydney and the northern acadamies, The NGA academies develop kids that they don't have exclusive access to.

Can you say the same about your academy? You're only doing it for your own benefit.

Before you get all high and mighty, I hope you do realise that there's been multiple cases where players were developed by the Northern Academies but were found ineligible to be drafted by that club. Todd Marshall despite being part of the GWS academy from a young age was ruled ineligible because he spent two winters in England playing cricket. Lachie Weller was part of the GC academy for three years, and could arguably play for Queensland under State of Origin rules having moved there at 15 from Tassie, but wasn't part of the academy long enough to be drafted by GC.

That's two examples I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there's been others. The northern academies did develop kids that they didn't have exclusive access to.