NGA - A complete rort

[jackess]

I certainly do.

But as I very much doubt the vested interests would allow them to be removed, a major alteration to the bidding system would suffice.

2 changes.

1) Discount varies (both as a percentage and total pts), declining the more players you've picked up over the previous years (FS would also count against this). Potentially losing FA players could add to available discount, as could the number of local players (although how they would be worked in fairly could be tricky).

2) You need a pick within 1 round of the bid you're matching.

Sounds like you have an issue with the bidding system. Just as I posted

 

[telsor]

You're barking up the wrong tree on this tack.

We very regularly send AFL players to junior training sessions to promote the game and the club. It's 9ften those with kids that play that have inside info with us, the players are pretty frank with the kids about injuries etc. We also distribute free tkts to games through the juniors to the kids and their parents. Schools as well.

This is independent of the three game junior membership thing the AFL does for Auskick.The AFL also employs development staff in NSW and the ACT at least, I'm not sure of the boundaries.

Growing the juniors is our clubs focus for sustainable growth.

Why couldn't players go to junior sessions if the AFL/local clubs ran them?

Hell, it could actually benefit clubs like yours as it could, to a degree, be used as a top up payment for the lack of 3rd party deals your players get. They get a '3rd party' deal with whatever NEAFL club, paid for by the AFL to run junior development sessions. Because the AFL knows which clubs get more/less from those, they deliberately target players at those clubs who get less otherwise.

That doesn't mean your club can't/wont do promotion work with kids as well...Clubs have been doing that for a hundred years without academies after all.

 

[telsor]

Sounds like you have an issue with the bidding system. Just as I posted

I have an issue with academies, but as I said, I don't think the powers that will would remove them entirely as I'd like, so I gave a proposal that might have a chance of getting through.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Why couldn't players go to junior sessions if the AFL/local clubs ran them?

Hell, it could actually benefit clubs like yours as it could, to a degree, be used as a top up payment for the lack of 3rd party deals your players get. They get a '3rd party' deal with whatever NEAFL club, paid for by the AFL to run junior development sessions. Because the AFL knows which clubs get more/less from those, they deliberately target players at those clubs who get less otherwise.

That doesn't mean your club can't/wont do promotion work with kids as well...Clubs have been doing that for a hundred years without academies after all.

That's a different tack. My point was we are very interested in the health of the local comps. I get all clubs do this but it's a particular focus for us in our position.

 

[jackess]

I have an issue with academies, but as I said, I don't think the powers that will would remove them entirely as I'd like, so I gave a proposal that might have a chance of getting through.

What is your issue with clubs having academies which isn't bidding related?

 

[telsor]

That's a different tack. My point was we are very interested in the health of the local comps. I get all clubs do this but it's a particular focus for us in our position.

Not a different tack...It's all integrated.

How many 17 year olds do you spend money on developing to their full, after you know they wont make it to AFL standard?

I'm sure there are a few, but most would be either because you thought they were a chance at the start of the year when you signed them up, with perhaps a few more to ensure you had sufficient numbers for a decent training session.

No club (and yours less than most) has the resources to keep developing a significant number of players they won't benefit from, whatever the benefits to the 'health of the local comp'.

 

[telsor]

What is your issue with clubs having academies which isn't bidding related?

Read the posts I'm making concurrently to my conversation with you.

Club run academies are there to benefit clubs...Take them away from the clubs and they could benefit the game more broadly.

 

[jackess]

Read the posts I'm making concurrently to my conversation with you.

Club run academies are there to benefit clubs...Take them away from the clubs and they could benefit the game more broadly.

So club run academies impede the development of kids into footballers?

 

[telsor]

So club run academies impede the development of kids into footballers?

No, they make great AFL players....and largely ignore potential 2nd tier players, thus widening the gap.

Football goes beyond the AFL.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Not a different tack...It's all integrated.

How many 17 year olds do you spend money on developing to their full, after you know they wont make it to AFL standard?

I'm sure there are a few, but most would be either because you thought they were a chance at the start of the year when you signed them up, with perhaps a few more to ensure you had sufficient numbers for a decent training session.

No club (and yours less than most) has the resources to keep developing a significant number of players they won't benefit from, whatever the benefits to the 'health of the local comp'.

We've chosen to continue to support the academy players ruled ineligible because of boundary changes in the Riverina.

It's true, resources are an issue.
What we need is for the big financially secure clubs to tighten their belt and contribute more. After all we're shoulders to the wheel trying to grow the game for everyone's benefit.

 

[Kummerspeck]

as per your quote from Jack Buckley it's hard to stay in (i.e. numbers get reduced as they get older and clubs realise these kids aren't up to the required standard for the club to benefit).

Which quote was that?

Not a different tack...It's all integrated.

How many 17 year olds do you spend money on developing to their full, after you know they wont make it to AFL standard?
'.

This year the Swans academy alone would have been a couple of dozen.

No, they make great AFL players....and largely ignore potential 2nd tier players, thus widening the gap.

If you ignore the academy products in the NEAFL, VFL, and SANFL this is true.

 

[sataris]

Anyone who suggests the AFL run the academies is a moron.

They tried, failed and asked the clubs to do it for them.

Sydney also requested to not participate in the draft and only make academy selections and was rejected by the AFL.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/swans-had-plan-to-pull-out-of-draft-20140827-1097qx.html

Sydney chief executive Andrew Ireland confirmed the Swans' proposal, saying the club was confident it could have developed enough local talent to justify removing itself from the draft. He said that while "the AFL thought we might have been a bit too optimistic, our view was that there had to be more genuine, elite talent in NSW, given the population".

If you have a problem with the academies, take it up with those responsible.

Yourselves.

 

[Blood red]

Horseshit. Brisbane won 3 flags, Sydney 2. GC & GWS are AFL projects that were given very generous start up concessions and have been given more AFL support than any other team could dream of. People are just sick of the endless victim act. You can have all the draft picks and all the money in the world and it is no guarantee of anything, just ask Melbourne and Carlton of the 2000s and 2010s.

How many Victorian players do the Storm/Rebels have? What are the make up of the NBL and A-League teams? How many Queenslanders are there in the NRL with 3 teams out of 16?

We get it, the depth of talent in NSW/Qld isn't what it is in WA, SA and Vic. It's been repeated about 1,000 times and measures to improve it are supported my the majority of people. But let's be realistic, the Northern clubs wouldn't contribute to academy programs if there wasn't a clear advantage in it for them.

Ok.
Lets change the direction. Apparently 10 academy prospects in the Swans, prob 3 in the Giants, some fantastic Qld talent to come.
No victims here... TAC teams will be tested this year, rather than simply throwing their 2 best teams together (metro and poor cousins country)and claiming the TAC Cup is the breeding ground of the AFL.
At least the northern academy players may actually be acknowledged for their talent, rather then the crap about the academy. I guess draft night this year may be a bit more northern then the vic pundents might believe.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

What is your issue with clubs having academies which isn't bidding related?

It corrupts one of the key pillars of equalisation, the draft.

 

[Blood red]

No, they make great AFL players....and largely ignore potential 2nd tier players, thus widening the gap.

Football goes beyond the AFL.

How can that be? Kids are coached and developed in academies along side club coaching. Academy kids also get the advantage of high quality coaches and mentors. They have pathways set and are also taught and expected to uphold high standards, on and off the field.
Like all professional sports, most players are not going to make the elite level, but the numbers who go on to play NEAFL and other second tier football, or simply play local footy is vast.
It is also very obvious how successful the academies are when the State championchips are on in Primary school and u15s. Previously, these teams would have had a few AFL players surrounded by NRL and Rugby players making up the numbers, (other than the Riverina teams), now the quality is lifting, with the vast majority of the NSW/Act teams being from Swan's or Giant's academies.
This creates a flow on of great 2nd tier players, rather then continue the idea that the Rugby boys can have some time off school to kick and giggle, then return to their academy training to continue with"real footy".
AFL wins out there!
The academy is looking for the best, but finding the best in states dominated by NRL is difficult unless they offer the same professional application.
But saying that, player development and personal development is the desired result in EVERY player through the academies.

 

[Blood red]

It corrupts one of the key pillars of equalisation, the draft.

How does having an academy do that?
The compensation of points or the priority pick might be an argument, but not simply by having an academy.
How many Vic academies exist?
How many AFL scholarship positions that "don't exist" but really do in Vic private schools help out kids.
What about the National Academy and now the new State Academies?
Have a problem with them?
They exist to develop the so called cream of the crop...
Without the academies in the Northern states, the number of kids now and in the future, coming through would have been lost to other codes who do offer academies.
Not sure what all the fuss is about!

 

[Demonic Ascent]

How does having an academy do that?
The compensation of points or the priority pick might be an argument, but not simply by having an academy.
How many Vic academies exist?
How many AFL scholarship positions that "don't exist" but really do in Vic private schools help out kids.
What about the National Academy and now the new State Academies?
Have a problem with them?
They exist to develop the so called cream of the crop...
Without the academies in the Northern states, the number of kids now and in the future, coming through would have been lost to other codes who do offer academies.
Not sure what all the fuss is about!

Oh I don't have a problem with footballing academies in general - but this thread is about the NGA's and, by extension, the NSW/Qld academies which grant priority access to players in the draft. I would've thought that was obvious.

 

[Blood red]

Oh I don't have a problem with footballing academies in general - but this thread is about the NGA's and, by extension, the NSW/Qld academies which grant priority access to players in the draft. I would've thought that was obvious.

I get that.
But my response was related to the question about problems with academies which IS NOT bidding related...

 

[telsor]

How can that be? Kids are coached and developed in academies along side club coaching. Academy kids also get the advantage of high quality coaches and mentors. They have pathways set and are also taught and expected to uphold high standards, on and off the field.
Like all professional sports, most players are not going to make the elite level, but the numbers who go on to play NEAFL and other second tier football, or simply play local footy is vast.
It is also very obvious how successful the academies are when the State championchips are on in Primary school and u15s. Previously, these teams would have had a few AFL players surrounded by NRL and Rugby players making up the numbers, (other than the Riverina teams), now the quality is lifting, with the vast majority of the NSW/Act teams being from Swan's or Giant's academies.
This creates a flow on of great 2nd tier players, rather then continue the idea that the Rugby boys can have some time off school to kick and giggle, then return to their academy training to continue with"real footy".
AFL wins out there!
The academy is looking for the best, but finding the best in states dominated by NRL is difficult unless they offer the same professional application.
But saying that, player development and personal development is the desired result in EVERY player through the academies.

It happens because the clubs drop players from the 'elite program', or at least reduce the attention they receive as soon as they realise they're not going to be AFL standard (ie, when they're not going to benefit the club), so all those players who would be second tier don't get anywhere near the same development.

 

[basashi]

I still dislike the core instinct of the AFL on matters like this. Their gut reaction is to complicate, obfuscate, specialise and make everything as obscure as possible.

Their dream is that someone holds up a Premiership Cup and the commentators will talk, not about amazing defensive marks, breathtaking runs on goal... but of administrative technicalities.

I want a league where the process of acquiring players is utterly plain. And advantage can not be gotten by strategic gaming of the system, discovery of obscure by laws or conspiracy with promising players parents.

If you want extra players of a certain ethnicity or background then it is the AFL that should develop them and then throw them into the draft.

 

[Blood red]

It happens because the clubs drop players from the 'elite program', or at least reduce the attention they receive as soon as they realise they're not going to be AFL standard (ie, when they're not going to benefit the club), so all those players who would be second tier don't get anywhere near the same development.

That's simply not true.
The number of players who remained in the Swans through to their 17/ 18 and 19s and have been picked up by NEAFL teams and other 2nd tier clubs around the country is vast.
The academy develops the higher end players from u11 until the end of their u15 year.
U16s are then cut to place a greater emphasis on top end talent.
But ALL players are also affiliated with their club teams, and continue to train and develop, as well as share their skills with their team mates.
The arguement could also be made about the national academies???
Sport is a dream job and a desire for many, realised by few. But the reality is just that.
For those academy kids, there are about 40 16 year olds, and 50 total in the 17, 18 and 19s squad who are preparing for the nationals.
This year may see up to 7 or 8 be draft contenders, leaving 42 others who are still being coached, nurtured and gaining great experience with and against the best in the country. This can only lead to a better second tier group of Northern players.

 

[telsor]

That's simply not true.
The number of players who remained in the Swans through to their 17/ 18 and 19s and have been picked up by NEAFL teams and other 2nd tier clubs around the country is vast.
The academy develops the higher end players from u11 until the end of their u15 year.
U16s are then cut to place a greater emphasis on top end talent.
But ALL players are also affiliated with their club teams, and continue to train and develop, as well as share their skills with their team mates.
The arguement could also be made about the national academies???
Sport is a dream job and a desire for many, realised by few. But the reality is just that.
For those academy kids, there are about 40 16 year olds, and 50 total in the 17, 18 and 19s squad who are preparing for the nationals.
This year may see up to 7 or 8 be draft contenders, leaving 42 others who are still being coached, nurtured and gaining great experience with and against the best in the country. This can only lead to a better second tier group of Northern players.

So tell me, how many 14 year olds go through, Vs how many 17 year olds?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

It happens because the clubs drop players from the 'elite program', or at least reduce the attention they receive as soon as they realise they're not going to be AFL standard (ie, when they're not going to benefit the club), so all those players who would be second tier don't get anywhere near the same development.

Got any actual evidence of this? Or are you just getting increasingly desperate to knock the academies.

 

[Blood red]

So tell me, how many 14 year olds go through, Vs how many 17 year olds?

But how many 14 year olds play weekend AFL compared to 17 year olds?
My point is, that from 11 to the end of their 15s (5 full years) all players, no matter how good or poor they are, receive the same opportunity.
But like most things in the world, somewhere there has to be recognition of elite talent, so hence the "top end program".
We live in times where everyone gets a trophy for everything.
But the idea that keeping every junior player from u11 to u19 just doesn't work, because the truth is, most players that don't progress wouldn't be a good second tier player at their club level.
And they aren't simply cut and forgotten anyway. There are multiple examples of kids who were cut, and kept an eye on, and were invited back once their attitude or skill level warranted it.

 

[Lockyer24]

The biggest rort is the points based system for getting these kids. It's horrendous