Nah he was only 4 months younger than Daicos, it's just the nature of the drafting pool. 2021 was nothing special but by 2022 as a 19 year old (like Daicos in 2022) he was ready to go - hence the blistering second half of the season where he was rated as the best wingman in the comp.
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Mega Thread Nick Daicos - Can he be the GTWEB? Part 2
- Thread starter Fadge
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sr36
TheBrownDog
On a side note - one of the more interesting things about those two players, draftees and devleopment in general is the covid impact. Holmes had his last year of under 18s wiped out and Daicos the vast majority of his last two years wiped out - didn't seem to impact their development in the slightest.
In terms of the two players, it's not particularly close. Holmes might be approaching 2023 Nick when Nick was still predominantly outside - but he's not in the ballpark in terms of the most valuable thing in footy - getting the ball from the inside into his team's hands on the outside.
- Thread starter
- #4,853
I've no doubt you've watched the Geelong 2007 finals series much more recently than I have. I haven't watched those matches since... 2007.
You know I love Selwood, and Joel was the first player I thought of when contemplating who may have had a similarly strong finals campaign in his rookie season.
But you are stretching it to suggest Selwood was better than Daicos, despite Daicos averaging 33% more possessions than Selwood over the respective finals series, regardless of position.
Then in search of records of best players from the Geelong games in the 2007 finals series, I stumbled upon the records in Wikipedia - not the most reliable or reputable of sources, but a source nonetheless.
Qualifying Final - 9 players listed amongst the best players. Joel listed 7th.
Preliminary Final - 8 players listed amongst the best players. Joel not listed.
Grand Final - 9 players listed amongst the best players. Joel not listed.
Now I acknowledge all 3 finals are 'Major' finals, whilst Daicos played a Semi Final instead of a Grand Final, but I'm not sure you'd get too much support with your argument that Selwood's 54 possession finals series where in his best game he was rated circa 7th best player for his team, was superior to Daicos' 74 possession finals series, where he was in the best handful of players for his team in 2 of those games, and if the best player list extended beyond the best handful of players for the Qualifying Final, I expect he'd have been one of the next players listed....
Good try, and Selwood could quite possibly be #2, which is no shame when he's going up against the player who has jumped out of the gates quicker and better than anyone to have played the game in my lifetime.
Lunchtime
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Everything you've said isnt made up. Its fact. The AFLCA Gary Ayres coaches votes state exactly what you're saying. All you're doing is reflecting what the votes say.
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Wikipedia can be included if you adapt this to a standup routine, but it's not fit as a source for an actual discussion. 2007 was a lower stat era in general - Selwood's disposal/clearance/contested possession/inside 50 combination was elite for a hybrid wingman/midfielder. In fact it still would be for a wingman over a finals series today. Daicos had a high disposal count. He was good but Selwood was winning contests and still doing elite work setting goals up on the outside - 7 goal assists for the finals series. Selwood was more influential, sorry.
We're discussing their finals catalogues from 2022 onwards, not total output. I acknowledge Holmes was a year behind the curve with his development in terms of when he was drafted, but they are only a few months apart age-wise.
It's interesting that by the metric you highlight here, Selwood was a far more valuable and high impact player in his debut season and rookie finals season than Daicos was in 2022. Fadge disagrees.
- Thread starter
- #4,860
LOLOL.
Now Selwood was FAR MORE VALUABLE and HIGH IMPACT PLAYER, despite Daicos getting the ball 33% more often, and being named in his team's best handful of players twice, compared to zero from Selwood...
sr36
TheBrownDog
Yeah I know you're discussing finals - I just think it's silly to be looking at blokes through a sample size of 6 games spread over 4 years. They've both shown they can stand up to the occasion and I know who I'd prefer to have in my team for a final - and it's not very close - even though I do think Holmes is an outstanding young player.
I think Selwood might have been more valuable in 2007 finals - I'd have to watch again - which I'm not going to. Nick was a skinny damaging outsider in 2022 - they tend to be less effective in finals as transition is less effective when the heat goes right up and he wasn't particularly damaging in those finals. Selwood on the other hand landed in the AFL playing as though he was 25. He was awesome. About as good as you can be with his physical traits and playing traditionally. He didn't have the physical advantages or pull off the wow stuff that the very few players who have had better careers in recent times possessed.
Watch the games. As a reference point though, it's easier to get in the best handful of your team's players in a run of the mill losing prelim final team, than one of the greatest of all time. Geelong from round 5 that year were as good as any we've seen in the AFL era and Selwood was still hugely important. His prelim was a bit quiet he was elite by position in the other two finals - clearances, inside 50s, contested possession, setting up goals etc.
Holmes has been BOG or close to it for 4 consecutive finals and was just unlucky to pop a hammy early in the 3rd quarter for 2 of them. He was also important in the decisive last quarter of the 2022 QF. He has performed to a higher level on the big stage since Daicos came into the league. That could very well change in the coming finals matches and years. Daicos would need some BOG performances or Holmes would have to dip his level for that to happen.
Agree on the second paragraph. Selwood spent about 50% time on the wing and 50% as an onballer in a lower possession era. But he was pretty high impact at winning the footy in contests and using the ball really well both on the inside and outside. He was clearly made for finals football and that was already evident through the 2007 campaign.
sr36
TheBrownDog
Have you considered opening a "Can Max Holmes be the GOAT finals player" thread? He might be tracking that way.
- Thread starter
- #4,868
Do you realise that if you exclude Holmes' first two 10 possession finals, and pretend he didn't get injured in another 2, he has an extremely good finals record?
Not at all. In the context of this thread I would assume becoming the best finals player in the comp is Daicos' next major thing to achieve. Ablett achieved this 2007-2010 before wasting his career with Gold Coast. Daicos has been up there with the best in the comp 2023 onwards but has not yet converted that into rolling finals MVP. Collingwood should keep giving him chances through his 20s but you never know - what if he also barely gets to play finals over the next 5 or 6 years?
It would mean more to have BOG performances in a prelim and grand final this year than whether or not he finishes 1st or 2nd in the Brownlow for example.
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I had even more in the Dusty thread and would have just as many regardless of the player discussed - chatting about the best players between eras has always been something I do.
A few of you Pies posters acting just as embarrassing as the worst Tigers diehards in that thread (mostly Cobbers and Foodge to be fair, the rest are balanced enough) is much worse.
Did you really?
I couldn't give a rats, but when I see you calling posters morons, and look at your posts and how many, I think you are the one that needs to look in the mirror.
And for what it's worth, I don't really care if Daicos becomes the greatest, it wouldn't make any difference to some, he would still be shit at something.
Why would falling 1 vote short of Smith in the Brownlow, and having two match-winning performances in the PF + GF equate to a worse season than winning the Brownlow and just being okay in the latter two matches?
Logically you really are stuck in peak Falcon places these days.
- Thread starter
- #4,874
I'm glad you clarified yourself, Mr Me(teoric Arr)0w.
I have been very consistent in my view that people shouldn't be binary about whether a player wins, or doesn't win an award, as it doesn't change the way they have performed across a season.
So on this, I hereby agree with you.
