NIIIICEEE GARRRYY.. Ehh maybe not that nice, did we just watch Lyon's last test?

Tyberious Funk

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He's also got a better strike rate in India, Sri Lanka and the West Indies than he does in Australia, too, so he can take wickets in spinning conditions as well, despite some poeple's apparently certainty that he can't/won't.
You're being generous. His record in Sri Lanka is only marginally better than his record in Australia. His record in the West Indies is good... but that's because playing in the West Indies generally means you are playing against the Windies -- one of the poorer teams going around.

His record in India? Yes, his strike rate in India is better than his strike rate in Australia. But his average is worse. That's because he gets spanked by the Indians at more than 4 runs an over... and that is why people don't think he'll do well.

Back in 2015, it really looked like Lyon had turned a corner. He wasn't taking big bags, but he was regularly taking 2-3 wickets each innings and was generally tight. But this year he's got steadily worse and in the last couple of weeks he has been complete poo. The fact that he took 3 quick wickets in Melbourne and wasn't given the ball to try and clean up the tail just shows that Smith has very little faith in him.

There's a breakdown somewhere and it really needs to be fixed.
 

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His bowling this summer has far too often reverted to that pressureless defensive crap that's been getting carted all over. There's a number of reasons for that, such as conditions and pitch state but mostly because hes bowled s**t lines. He's always the least likely to get a wicket and looks the least likely when hes bowling. Usually gets wickets caught, rarely bowled or lbw, signs of great spinners.
 

Jimthegreat

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Again you go with the stats. Those us who don't rate him (which also seems to be every member of the selection panel for the past few years) don't think he will be effective at Test level for the reasons that you have been given several times. Those reasons are less of an issue at first class level because the players are of lower quality.
Lyon's performed for a number of years hence O'Keefe wasn't getting a crack. Stats can mean alot of things but when you have a pretty long career and your first class bowling averages is 23 it tells me you are a very good bowler, no argument there, and probably better than Lyon. Lyon though has had a number of good years, 200 wickets says that, and until recently certainly hasn't never deserved to be dropped. If you perform that's the strength of incumbency, especially when only one spinner plays.

Last year O'Keefe played two matches in India against India A and took 14 wickets @ 20. He continues to be underestimated alot.
 

Jimthegreat

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Think back to last ashes and compare to the squad of bowlers now. You had the strike bowler Harris who nipped the ball around, swing, pace. You name it. They left him alone a little bit.

Johnson. Strike bowling intimidator. He mind****ed them that series and they never looked like scoring off them.

Siddle and Lyon had good series because of the first two as they were the ones targeted. Lyon would get slogged into the deep (got KP 2-3 times that way, and Bell also from memory) and Sids would get wickets by trying to be dispatched of his impeccable line.

Starc is no Johnson. Strike bowler he is but nowhere near as intimidating, meanwhile his 'not quite on' spells leak runs like a sieve.
Bird and Haze are no Sids or Harris 13/14.

No doubt Lyon isn't at the top of form right now. That's all on him to rectify, however, there are valid comparisons that can be made as to why he's less effective now. Pressure isn't built up as well from the other end as it once was.
Only area I disagree is Hazelwood is certainly better than Siddle and must get close to Harris at least but, yes, you make good points.
 

Mitchell Madness

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He just can't turn it f all..

Why can no aussies get turn on the ball?
On Australian decks ((excluding Sydney), they don't get turn simply because the wickets are far too soft (they've become similar to the silky wickets of South Africa)

People forget that finger spinners have a much harder job than wrist spinners
 

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On Australian decks ((excluding Sydney), they don't get turn simply because the wickets are far too soft (they've become similar to the silky wickets of South Africa)

People forget that finger spinners have a much harder job than wrist spinners
Finger spinners bowl differently to wrist spinners anyway, you can't compare like for like. Vettori is perhaps the best finger spinner in recent years, as he never really tweaked it much. His action was deceptive and he could bowl a handful of balls without the batsman having a clue. Never turned it much, but has excellent control, great flight and often beat the batsman in the air. He was one of the few that would turn it inches, yet occasionally bamboozle batsman.

Wrist spin is all about imparting as much spin as possible on the ball, whereas finger spin is all about moving the ball in flight and using drift to beat the edge. They're never going to turn it out of the rough like those ridiculous Warne balls, but they'll get wickets.
 

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frankrizzo

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Same thing would happen to o keefe if he gets the job long term and that is when people realize he isn't going to be a superstar on our pathetic decks the thinking becomes well maybe one of these random shield blokes is the next warnie so lets just try a new one each week just to be sure we aren't missing out.
 

Kram

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Someone posted in the 1st test thread that his figures over the 4 tests this summer are something like 8 wickets @ 63. If he's not going to dropped after that then he may as well plan on staying there until he qualifies for the pension. Holland deserves a go.
haha
People recommending Holland are deluded.

It's hard for Lyon to get wickets on the highways that have been dished out. Wait and watch until he goes to India and proves everyone wrong.
:thumbsu:
 

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No one has a dig at Lyon because he's "not Warne". They have a dig at him because he's more often than not a straight up mediocre bowler.
Great bowling performance, I just wish he was consistently good, not consistently inconsistent.
 

Badesumofu

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No one has a dig at Lyon because he's "not Warne". They have a dig at him because he's more often than not a straight up mediocre bowler.
Great bowling performance, I just wish he was consistently good, not consistently inconsistent.
Nonsense. 240+ wickets at 33 for an offie who operates primarily in Australia is top notch. It's totally because people expect Warne-like results that he gets knocked on so quickly and easily. Notwithstanding that there are some around here who still thin that Starc and Smith are bad cricketers, there's no real excuse for anyone who is paying attention to have no accepted that Lyon is pretty decent bowler. It bothered me when he was dropped on previous sub-continent tours because it's pretty clear he is our best option but he needed to learn to bowl in sub-continental conditions. Rather than give him the chance to learn, the selectors preferred to pick someone who averages 50 in FC cricket in the hopes that they'd magically turn out to be a world class spinner in alien conditions.

SOK is a good pick on spinning decks because they cover his main weakness - that he doesn't turn it much. On the Pune wicket his accuracy and consistency was golden and the pitch did work in terms of turn. That he turned it less than others actually became an advantage. Lyon, now that he is getting the hang of the conditions is also turning out to be a very valuable contributor.
 

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Barring a total loss of form, I think we can reasonably expect him to be the first Australian offie to take 300 wickets. He's not yet thirty either.
 

big_e

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Will probably go past Richie Benaud as our second highest wicket-taker as a spinner on this tour.

Incidentally, fifth most wickets in Aus vs India tests - those ahead are all Indians and his strike rate is at least 10 better than all those above him. And some people wanted him ledt out.....
 

Bless

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Wasn't that long ago when Lyon was about to dropped for O'Keefe only to retain due to SOK being injured. Quite the sliding doors moment as it turns out.

Looking in his element at the moment.
 
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