AFLW NMFC AFLW [Season 2021] Trade Period: JGrierson-->GWS for #28, Saad+30-->GCS for #19, NMFC delist KGillespie-Jones

Remove this Banner Ad

Hearts to hearts

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 16, 2001
21,057
38,468
Melbourne VIC
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Wales, Eastwood, West Ham
So after an exhaustive search, Geelong has given the AFLW senior coach job to a guy who used to play for them, has been a men’s assistant coach, and joined their AFLW program as an assistant half way through last year. Words fail me. I can only assume it’s a soft cap-related decision like ours.

Women’s footy is not men‘s footy. But from the top level through suburban clubs, specialist coaches in the women’s game - women and men - keep getting overlooked in favour of keeping mates in work. Everyone loves Crocks but this model is not good enough.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Teen Wolf

Premiership Player
Jul 5, 2011
4,710
5,744
Melbourne
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Rancho Carne Toros
So after an exhaustive search, Geelong has given the AFLW senior coach job to a guy who used to play for them, has been a men’s assistant coach, and joined their AFLW program as an assistant half way through last year. Words fail me. I can only assume it’s a soft cap-related decision like ours.

Women’s footy is not men‘s footy. But from the top level through suburban clubs, specialist coaches in the women’s game - women and men - keep getting overlooked in favour of keeping mates in work. Everyone loves Crocks but this model is not good enough.
Who are these overlooked specialist coaches supposed to be... Bec Goddard, Michelle Cowan, Tim Schmidt, Tom Hunter? Adelaide, Fremantle, GWS and Richmond all improved after those coaches were replaced with guys who had little or no experience in women's football.

Paul Hood was VFLW coach of the year before getting the AFLW job at Geelong and taking them to a 6-17 record which included just two scores of 40+ (both came against teams coached by other so-called specialists in the women's game).

Scott Gowans? The more we back over it, the more his name is tarnished, and perhaps unfairly for all we know. But the fact of the matter is our captain was glad to see the back of him and she made that pretty clear publicly. What is a club to do.

Besides, 10 years from now, I'm betting women's footy will have proven to be quite alike to men's footy in the sense that AFLW coaches will be mostly or entirely former AFLW players.
 

King Corey

Moderator
Jun 9, 2001
30,013
97,739
Windy Hill Safe Injecting Room
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
St Johnstone
Scott Gowans? The more we back over it, the more his name is tarnished, and perhaps unfairly for all we know. But the fact of the matter is our captain was glad to see the back of him and she made that pretty clear publicly. What is a club to do.
This has been thrown around a bit, do you have any more info on it?

Gowans had them setting high ambitions and playing good footy. Said the right things in public (also heard great things directly from those dealing with him), now if he was a dolt behind the scenes though I've no idea.

Was there a case of Pagan about him in coaching well but being unpopular in the short term with his troops?

As Hearts to hearts touched on, I felt the sideways appointment of Crocker to AFLW coach was a little insulting. We wouldn't dream of shipping off a coach who just achieved a minor premiership with the men's side due to Covid cuts yet we did exactly that with the same result for the women.

I hope Gowans really was toxic in some way because otherwise it reeked of a typical jobs for the boys move.
 

DarwinRoo

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 10, 2007
23,954
11,749
Darwin
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
South Dragons, Storm.
Scott Gowans? The more we back over it, the more his name is tarnished, and perhaps unfairly for all we know. But the fact of the matter is our captain was glad to see the back of him and she made that pretty clear publicly. What is a club to do.

Any direct quotes to back that up?
 

Teen Wolf

Premiership Player
Jul 5, 2011
4,710
5,744
Melbourne
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Rancho Carne Toros
I don't recall our women's team winning a minor premiership. But I do recall this interview being discussed earlier in the thread.

An accurate transcript of what Emma Kearney said in the linked soundcloud track from 1:40 to 1:56:
"[Darren Crocker] creates really good relationships with all the players. When you're coaching women's sport, you've got to make the girls feel really valued and that's what he does really well. So that's probably a major shift."

Doesn't mean it's true, or that anybody's a dolt or toxic. But clearly the coach and the captain weren't on the same page, at which point something has to change.
 

Shinboner1

Club Legend
Aug 13, 2020
2,988
4,900
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I don't recall our women's team winning a minor premiership. But I do recall this interview being discussed earlier in the thread.

An accurate transcript of what Emma Kearney said in the linked soundcloud track from 1:40 to 1:56:
"[Darren Crocker] creates really good relationships with all the players. When you're coaching women's sport, you've got to make the girls feel really valued and that's what he does really well. So that's probably a major shift."

Doesn't mean it's true, or that anybody's a dolt or toxic. But clearly the coach and the captain weren't on the same page, at which point something has to change.
sounds like BS' coaching style.
play your friends/favourites and don't create competition or punish poor performances on field.
Wouldn't fly in competitive men's teams.
no wonder we've been stagnant in the rankings for the past couple of years.
 

King Corey

Moderator
Jun 9, 2001
30,013
97,739
Windy Hill Safe Injecting Room
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
St Johnstone
I don't recall our women's team winning a minor premiership.

Albeit within a conference but a form of minor premiership all the same. ie - they couldn't achieve any higher ranking within their H&A schedule.

An accurate transcript of what Emma Kearney said in the linked soundcloud track from 1:40 to 1:56:
"[Darren Crocker] creates really good relationships with all the players. When you're coaching women's sport, you've got to make the girls feel really valued and that's what he does really well. So that's probably a major shift."

Doesn't mean it's true, or that anybody's a dolt or toxic. But clearly the coach and the captain weren't on the same page, at which point something has to change.
Meh. Not meaning to sound contrary for the sake of it but that tells me Darren Crocker sounds like a nice guy. That's neither here nor there in terms of correlating with results.

If I wanted to draw a really long bow I'd look at this in isolation:

2020 AFLW League B&F - Emma Kearney - 11 votes - 3rd (Gowans coaching)
2021 AFLW League B&F - Emma Kearny - 4 votes - No listed placing (Crocker coaching)
 

Roman Roy

I’m dumb, but I’m smart.
Oct 3, 2017
2,404
7,926
AFL Club
North Melbourne
So after an exhaustive search, Geelong has given the AFLW senior coach job to a guy who used to play for them, has been a men’s assistant coach, and joined their AFLW program as an assistant half way through last year. Words fail me. I can only assume it’s a soft cap-related decision like ours.

Women’s footy is not men‘s footy. But from the top level through suburban clubs, specialist coaches in the women’s game - women and men - keep getting overlooked in favour of keeping mates in work. Everyone loves Crocks but this model is not good enough.
Unfortunately, Peta Searle failed spectacularly, which has set back the cause for female coaches and VFLW coaches as well.
 

Roman Roy

I’m dumb, but I’m smart.
Oct 3, 2017
2,404
7,926
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Those desperately wanting to polish Scott Gowans credentials should probably pop on down to Collingwood. He's not with us anymore so time to get over it. For the record, I don't think anyone said he was toxic. Some players, such as Ash Ridell, loved him. But it appears that he had some issues communicating with others. Not a sackable issue and just very unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nevertheless, it's all stale news. Move on.
 

King Corey

Moderator
Jun 9, 2001
30,013
97,739
Windy Hill Safe Injecting Room
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
St Johnstone
Seriously? Every other failed coach - e.g. Suns - has been a man, with no broader repercussions.
Utterly disgusting if clubs are wary for this reason.

Based on this sweeping prejudice from clubs, they should be wary of employing coaches with any of the following attributes in future:

  • Has rooted a former tennis player
  • Has an extensive property portfolio
  • Has a BMI exceeding 30
  • Has no discernible physical features (hi Alan Richardson)
  • Is named Michael Voss
  • Is shorter than Alistair Clarkson
  • Once participated in a tanning and bulking program
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

ArchKing Carey

Club Legend
Jun 17, 2011
1,263
3,443
Melbourne
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Toronto Raptors, Arsenal FC
Who are these overlooked specialist coaches supposed to be... Bec Goddard, Michelle Cowan, Tim Schmidt, Tom Hunter? Adelaide, Fremantle, GWS and Richmond all improved after those coaches were replaced with guys who had little or no experience in women's football.

Paul Hood was VFLW coach of the year before getting the AFLW job at Geelong and taking them to a 6-17 record which included just two scores of 40+ (both came against teams coached by other so-called specialists in the women's game).

Scott Gowans? The more we back over it, the more his name is tarnished, and perhaps unfairly for all we know. But the fact of the matter is our captain was glad to see the back of him and she made that pretty clear publicly. What is a club to do.

Besides, 10 years from now, I'm betting women's footy will have proven to be quite alike to men's footy in the sense that AFLW coaches will be mostly or entirely former AFLW players.
I give it time, some of these young AFLW stars will go through the 10 years+ of playing and hopefully apprentice either with the men's or women's teams.
It should really about how your head is screwed on, the tactical nous and the ability to impart that vision on to your players.
Whether it is with a women's team or men's team should make no difference as long as they get their team a premiership.
 

Roman Roy

I’m dumb, but I’m smart.
Oct 3, 2017
2,404
7,926
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Seriously? Every other failed coach - e.g. Suns - has been a man, with no broader repercussions.
Well, it's hardly a shock that women are judged more harshly. But taking on board your point and looking at it from a different perspective, consider what links the failed Suns coach with the failed Saints coach rather than what distinguishes them. The answer, of course, is that neither played AFL. It shouldn't necessarily be the case, but there is still a strong prejudice against coaches from outside the system. Mark Bolton's failure hurt the cause for male coaches who never played AFL, and Chris Fagan may well be the last "great white hope" to prove that a coach can succeed at the top level without playing at the top level. Beyond that, we might be waiting until the first group of retired AFLW players turn their hand to coaching.
 

CrowdedHouse

Club Legend
Oct 10, 2007
2,938
2,973
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Port Melbourne (VFL)
Well, it's hardly a shock that women are judged more harshly. But taking on board your point and looking at it from a different perspective, consider what links the failed Suns coach with the failed Saints coach rather than what distinguishes them. The answer, of course, is that neither played AFL. It shouldn't necessarily be the case, but there is still a strong prejudice against coaches from outside the system. Mark Bolton's failure hurt the cause for male coaches who never played AFL, and Chris Fagan may well be the last "great white hope" to prove that a coach can succeed at the top level without playing at the top level. Beyond that, we might be waiting until the first group of retired AFLW players turn their hand to coaching.
The other thing that links the two coaches is they both lead a side from the 2nd expansion.

In fact, all four coaches who lead a 2nd expansion side are now gone, and all those sides have been given priority picks in this draft.

Perhaps we're judging a little harshly on their performance and should look at the issue of quality playing depth across the competition.
 

Hearts to hearts

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 16, 2001
21,057
38,468
Melbourne VIC
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Wales, Eastwood, West Ham
Well, it's hardly a shock that women are judged more harshly. But taking on board your point and looking at it from a different perspective, consider what links the failed Suns coach with the failed Saints coach rather than what distinguishes them. The answer, of course, is that neither played AFL. It shouldn't necessarily be the case, but there is still a strong prejudice against coaches from outside the system. Mark Bolton's failure hurt the cause for male coaches who never played AFL, and Chris Fagan may well be the last "great white hope" to prove that a coach can succeed at the top level without playing at the top level. Beyond that, we might be waiting until the first group of retired AFLW players turn their hand to coaching.
I guess my point is that ex AFL players are “outside the system“ that is women’s football. It seems to be a weird downside of the top tier now existing that AFLW is seen immediately as part of the AFL, proving alternative career options for AFL players and coaches, not an outgrowth of the long-standing existing women’s game. A lifetime of involvement with Darebin seems like a better grounding for coaching a women’s team than a lifetime in the AFL, but it’s not happening, and I think it’s a shame. I’ve seen women with hundreds of games playing and coaching experience at work in lower levels, and I’d love to see what they could do with the players and experience available at AFLW level.
 

King Corey

Moderator
Jun 9, 2001
30,013
97,739
Windy Hill Safe Injecting Room
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
St Johnstone
I guess my point is that ex AFL players are “outside the system“ that is women’s football. It seems to be a weird downside of the top tier now existing that AFLW is seen immediately as part of the AFL, proving alternative career options for AFL players and coaches, not an outgrowth of the long-standing existing women’s game. A lifetime of involvement with Darebin seems like a better grounding for coaching a women’s team than a lifetime in the AFL, but it’s not happening, and I think it’s a shame. I’ve seen women with hundreds of games playing and coaching experience at work in lower levels, and I’d love to see what they could do with the players and experience available at AFLW level.
There's a blind-spot in coaching appointment that seems to run in both AFL and AFLW.

I've posted before about how playing VFL/AFL was seen as a prerequisite to be taken seriously as an AFL senior coaching candidate for far too long. Thankfully Bolton and Fagan in recent times were given opportunities albeit with different results. But at least clubs were willing to try a different path. There's many reasons a player might not reach AFL level - other life choices, athleticism, luck, height etc - that have next to no relevance to predicting their ability to be effective coaches.

Other topline sports seem very open to players short of the top tier or rankings flourishing as coaches but not the AFL for some reason.

As you say the logic seems to now extend into the AFLW where just being on an AFL list during your career carries too much gravitas for coaching AFLW.

If anything the next generation of women coming through AFLW will hopefully be given opportunities in the AFL (not just AFLW) coaching system rather than playing AFL being some yellow brick road for coaching either league.

This isn't about equalisation or patronisation etiher. An Emma Kearney is going to have learned plenty about leadership, conditioning, balancing a professional athletic career with other work just for starters that is going to be of value to whoever she coaches regardless of their chromosomes.
 

ferball

Premium Platinum
Jul 24, 2015
26,379
50,244
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I guess my point is that ex AFL players are “outside the system“ that is women’s football. It seems to be a weird downside of the top tier now existing that AFLW is seen immediately as part of the AFL, proving alternative career options for AFL players and coaches, not an outgrowth of the long-standing existing women’s game. A lifetime of involvement with Darebin seems like a better grounding for coaching a women’s team than a lifetime in the AFL, but it’s not happening, and I think it’s a shame. I’ve seen women with hundreds of games playing and coaching experience at work in lower levels, and I’d love to see what they could do with the players and experience available at AFLW level.
That is because the AFL (the admin not the comp) is a parasitical organisation that feels entitled to "own" all of Australian Rules Football wherever that sport might raise its head.

But the highest level of competition is the AFL (the comp not the admin) - everything is ramped up in terms of competition so (imo) its reasonable to have that comp as the source for the best coaches and associated staff. Its head and shoulders above the next level oif mens competition as well, its not just "better than the womenz". That is because of the amount of money that goes into the game at that level. This is bound to change tho over the next decade or two, especially as current AFLW players retire and move into coaching positions.

A lifetime at Darebin isn't going to give you the level of expertise that any time at the AFL (comp not admin) level will give you. (But the same thing will happen with a lifetime at North Hobart or Williamstown in their mens comps.) Although it might give some insights into the women's game that aren't available at any level of men's competition.

As far as the admin not comp thing goes ... in the UK the Football Association runs the sport and the highest level of the comp is the EPL. In Australia the AFL runs the comp and is the highest level of the sport. It allows the AFL (admin not comp) to get away with a sleight of mind trick that it is Aussie Rules. if it disappeared tomorrow the WAFL, the SANFL and the TSL would still carry on as normal (maybe after one or two hiccups) and no doubt all of grass roots/lower level women's footy would as well.
 

TheTassieHawk

Senior List
Oct 12, 2019
215
150
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Renegades WBBL play their last regular season fixture on November 20 and the WBBL final is November 27.

So if there isn’t any impact from COVID then Jess Duffin is likely to be OK from Round 1 but would potentially have a clash in the AFLW preseason.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad