No more NBL coaches should coach the national team?

Soft Downhill Skier

2008-2010 wasn't me.
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Posts
34,055
Likes
26,793
AFL Club
GWS
Thread starter #1
I present 3 examples.

Brian Goorjian. The most successful coach in NBL history. Did the impossible in turning the Kings into a near dynasty. Yet led us to an embarrassing loss to NZ a few years ago and we missed the worlds. Having another ordinary Olympics despite having a big man rotation that the team has never had.

Phil Smyth. Another amazingly successful NBL coach. from an outsider's perspective, all his players seemed to love him and those 36s teams had great chemistry. Failed dismally as national coach.

Barry Barnes. Wasn't an NBL coach. Was above the club political fracas. Yet led Australia to 2 consecutive 4th place finishes. Goorjian would get a national holiday named after him if we got 4th. Don't underestimate the achievments of the Barnes teams.

Should we go back to a situation where the national team coach is immune from club loyalties, allegations of bias, looking after his NBL nest etc?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#2
Brian Goorjian. The most successful coach in NBL history. Did the impossible in turning the Kings into a near dynasty. Yet led us to an embarrassing loss to NZ a few years ago and we missed the worlds.
Wasn't that Phil Smyth??

Phil Smyth. Another amazingly successful NBL coach. from an outsider's perspective, all his players seemed to love him and those 36s teams had great chemistry. Failed dismally as national coach.
or maybe the retirements from national duties of Gaze, Vlahov, Bradkte, Heal and Longley etc wasn't the greatest start for any incoming coach to take over from.

Barry Barnes. Wasn't an NBL coach. Was above the club political fracas. Yet led Australia to 2 consecutive 4th place finishes. Goorjian would get a national holiday named after him if we got 4th. Don't underestimate the achievments of the Barnes teams.
Best coach we have ever had, although baskteball has changed a lot since his reign
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#3
Should we go back to a situation where the national team coach is immune from club loyalties, allegations of bias, looking after his NBL nest etc?
Yes but not for the reason you said.

Barry Barnes is a poor example and was only successful because of the era he coached in, not because of his knowledge or coaching strategies.
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#4
Best coach we have ever had, although baskteball has changed a lot since his reign
Crap – Dr Adrian Hurley was the best coach Australia ever had in the men’s. He has vision, knowledge and conviction. By giving Gaze a spot in the 84 team as a 17 year old and then selecting Vlahov, Bradtke and Longley in the 1992 team, he set Australia up for a golden era in the 1990’s

Barry Banes road Gazes coattail for a 4th place finish in Sydney and refuse to blood any youngsters during his time. By doing this he basically set Australia back 10 years and we are only just coming out of it now with Bogut and Mills in the team.
 

DoubleA

Premiership Player
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Posts
4,840
Likes
81
Location
Where Jack Lives.
AFL Club
Richmond
#6
I present 3 examples.

Brian Goorjian. The most successful coach in NBL history. Did the impossible in turning the Kings into a near dynasty. Yet led us to an embarrassing loss to NZ a few years ago and we missed the worlds. Having another ordinary Olympics despite having a big man rotation that the team has never had.

Phil Smyth. Another amazingly successful NBL coach. from an outsider's perspective, all his players seemed to love him and those 36s teams had great chemistry. Failed dismally as national coach.

Barry Barnes. Wasn't an NBL coach. Was above the club political fracas. Yet led Australia to 2 consecutive 4th place finishes. Goorjian would get a national holiday named after him if we got 4th. Don't underestimate the achievments of the Barnes teams.

Should we go back to a situation where the national team coach is immune from club loyalties, allegations of bias, looking after his NBL nest etc?
Phil Smyth took us to New Zealand and lost, hence Goorjian was his replacement. I don't really know where I stand on this situation, Goorj is out best coach,I mean who else could replace him right now?
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
1,195
Likes
509
Location
Perth WA
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
East Freo
#7
Phil Smyth took us to New Zealand and lost, hence Goorjian was his replacement. I don't really know where I stand on this situation, Goorj is out best coach,I mean who else could replace him right now?
As we have done with soccer and union should we look at a non Australian with International Experience??

I feel Gorjan is a great coach at domestic level due to the standard of the league but just isn't up to it at a International level with a better talent pool to compete with, he also lacks the fexibility in his structures.
 

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#8
Crap – Dr Adrian Hurley was the best coach Australia ever had in the men’s. He has vision, knowledge and conviction. By giving Gaze a spot in the 84 team as a 17 year old and then selecting Vlahov, Bradtke and Longley in the 1992 team, he set Australia up for a golden era in the 1990’s
I honestly forgot about him and you have a solid argument :thumbsu:

Barry Banes road Gazes coattail for a 4th place finish in Sydney and refuse to blood any youngsters during his time. By doing this he basically set Australia back 10 years and we are only just coming out of it now with Bogut and Mills in the team.
Are you serious??? you have 4 years to build for the olympics, plenty of time to develop youngsters for international basketball in that time. If these youngsters are good enough they will make the team. Barnes made the decision of having a crack at a medal in our Home olympics and you have a crack at him for that??? :rolleyes: it's quite uneducated IMO...

BTW Bogut, Mills, Newley and Ingles are in the side as they are the best players that we have available and they deserve to be there. Do you think Brian would have Mills in the side if he wasn't good enough?? I'll answer it for you, no he wouldn't
 

Falchoon

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Posts
28,171
Likes
7,719
Location
Jackson-Steinem
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Bluestar Airlines, Anacott Steel
#9
BTW Bogut, Mills, Newley and Ingles are in the side as they are the best players that we have available and they deserve to be there. Do you think Brian would have Mills in the side if he wasn't good enough?? I'll answer it for you, no he wouldn't
What if Sammy Mac, Stephen Black and to a lesser extent (if still playing) Simon Dwight were all available?

Mills and Ingles wouldn't be there.

and vice versa, why would you take Anstey/Saville over Jawai
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#10
Are you serious??? you have 4 years to build for the olympics, plenty of time to develop youngsters for international basketball in that time. If these youngsters are good enough they will make the team. Barnes made the decision of having a crack at a medal in our Home olympics and you have a crack at him for that??? :rolleyes: it's quite uneducated IMO...
In 1997 Australia won the under 22 world championship Gold medal however by the time the 2000 Sydney Olympics came around only 2 player in that squad were deemed good enough to make the side (McKinnon and Anstey). And Chris Anstey only played like 2 mins a game.

Why should Barry Barnes be applauded for having a crack at a medal in our home Olympics at the expense of developing player for the future, when he could easily have done both. He rode the coattails of others and didn’t give stuff about what he left behind. Don’t forget we had the best under 22 side, we played and beat Argentina who are now one of the best 3 sides in the world. They developed a group of player and become World Champions, we chucked all our eggs in one baseketball and became a basket case. That guy should be shot for not looking towards the future when we had the best young player in the world.

Uneducated? Please. :eek:


Edit - Andrew Gaze (Capt), Chris Anstey, Mark Bradtke, Martin Cattalini, Andrew Gaze, Ricky Grace, Shane Heal, Luc Longely, Sam Mackinnon, Brett Maher, Paul Rogers, Jason Smith, Andrew Vlahov. This was the 2000 team in Sydney.

BTW Bogut, Mills, Newley and Ingles are in the side as they are the best players that we have available and they deserve to be there. Do you think Brian would have Mills in the side if he wasn't good enough?? I'll answer it for you, no he wouldn't
If Jason Smith was injury free – Patrick Mills would not be in the side. If Sammy McKinnon was injury free – good buy Joe Ingles.
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#11
What if Sammy Mac, Stephen Black and to a lesser extent (if still playing) Simon Dwight were all available?

Mills and Ingles wouldn't be there.

and vice versa, why would you take Anstey/Saville over Jawai
Anstey has to be in the side but Jawai should have been selected in front of Redhage or Seville
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Richard Cranium

Premiership Player
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Posts
3,401
Likes
4,600
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PHX
#12
If Jason Smith was injury free – Patrick Mills would not be in the side. If Sammy McKinnon was injury free – good buy Joe Ingles.
Why would Jason Smith have anything at all to do with Mills making the side? Pretty ignorant comment.....

Ingles would still get picked if he were good enough.

And anyone saying that Barry Barnes set us back, that's just not right. You always go the win at the Olympics if you have the cattle. Just because our best players all decided to retire at the same time doesn't mean that Barnes should be blamed for playing them in Sydney..... :rolleyes:
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#13
Why would Jason Smith have anything at all to do with Mills making the side? Pretty ignorant comment.....
Because CJ, Newly and Barlow were always going to make the side and had Jason Smith not been injured and available for selection one of the guards would have had to go – IMO it would have been Patrick Mills with Smith playing backup point guard. Had Sammy Mac been available a forward would have gone and that would have been Ingles.

Ingles would still get picked if he were good enough.

And anyone saying that Barry Barnes set us back, that's just not right. You always go the win at the Olympics if you have the cattle. Just because our best players all decided to retire at the same time doesn't mean that Barnes should be blamed for playing them in Sydney..... :rolleyes:
What the **** - where did I say we didn’t attempt to win FFS? You can have more than one bloody objective when attempting to achieve something. Go for a medal and look towards the future but he didn’t give a stuff what was going to happen with the side after the Sydney Olympics. Just look at his player selection and say he gave a stuff about the future.

We had the best under 22 team in the world Eighteen months before hand and only 2 ****ing player made the side. Why is that and why are we now a basket case in world basketball – BEST IN THE WORLD. So we had the best 22 and under and only 2 players were developed enough to make the team?
 

Richard Cranium

Premiership Player
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Posts
3,401
Likes
4,600
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PHX
#14
Because CJ, Newly and Barlow were always going to make the side and had Jason Smith not been injured and available for selection one of the guards would have had to go – IMO it would have been Patrick Mills with Smith playing backup point guard. Had Sammy Mac been available a forward would have gone and that would have been Ingles.
Smith can't play PG. He doesn't even do so for the Kings. Plus, you don't take a team to the Olympics (or any international comp) with one PG. Mills would've been there, Smith or no Smith. Hell, if Bruce were availiable, we'd probably have taken three, just like at the WC's in 06.

IMO, Smith wasn't even a lock, even if he is a favourite of Goorj. If he did make it, you wouldn't be seeing one of the wings, not one of the guards.

I agree with you on Ingles, but I don't even see what you are saying. Goorj wouldn't take young guys, or he wouldn't take players not up to it?

What the **** - where did I say we didn’t attempt to win FFS? You can have more than one bloody objective when attempting to achieve something. Go for a medal and look towards the future but he didn’t give a stuff what was going to happen with the side after the Sydney Olympics. Just look at his player selection and say he gave a stuff about the future.

We had the best under 22 team in the world Eighteen months before hand and only 2 ****ing player made the side. Why is that and why are we now a basket case in world basketball – BEST IN THE WORLD. So we had the best 22 and under and only 2 players were developed enough to make the team?
What are you suggesting? He stack the team with young guys, even if they weren't good enough to make the team? What is the point of that? He took two of them, if that's all that felt could contribute, then he shouldn't have that held against him.

Don't get me wrong, I thought that Barnes did a crap job with that team, but to say that not taking enough young players, who weren't up the standard of Olympic basketball, held our national program back is just stupid.
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#16
Don't get me wrong, I thought that Barnes did a crap job with that team, but to say that not taking enough young players, who weren't up the standard of Olympic basketball, held our national program back is just stupid.
It certainly didn’t help; looking at the result over the last 8 year has shown that.
 

Richard Cranium

Premiership Player
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Posts
3,401
Likes
4,600
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PHX
#17
It certainly didn’t help; looking at the result over the last 8 year has shown that.
When you have 4 of your greatest players of all time retire, it's a bit rich to expect that we will be able to produce the same sort of results straight away. We were/are still a top 10 country.
 

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#18
In 1997 Australia won the under 22 world championship Gold medal however by the time the 2000 Sydney Olympics came around only 2 player in that squad were deemed good enough to make the side (McKinnon and Anstey). And Chris Anstey only played like 2 mins a game.
You mean Under 21, don't you???

Simon Dwight is the only other one up to the standard from that team.... who was he going to replace in the 2000 Olympics team??? how many players from that team went on with their basketball careers??

Why should Barry Barnes be applauded for having a crack at a medal in our home Olympics at the expense of developing player for the future, when he could easily have done both.
Why shouldn't he?? He had a crack at our home Olympics and gave players like Gaze, Vlahov, Bradtke, Heal, Longley & Grace the chance to win an Olympic Medal. Plus we had players like Maher (27), Cattalini (26), Rogers (26) , Smith (26), Mckinnon (23) & Anstey (25) who were all under 27....

Other than Simon Dwight, can you name me a young up and coming player that should have been on that team??

He rode the coattails of others and didn’t give stuff about what he left behind. Don’t forget we had the best under 22 side, we played and beat Argentina who are now one of the best 3 sides in the world. They developed a group of player and become World Champions, we chucked all our eggs in one baseketball and became a basket case. That guy should be shot for not looking towards the future when we had the best young player in the world.
They won a gold medal in 1997 at an under 21 tournament, which does not equal anything on the men's world stage. It wasn't Barnes' repsonsibility to develop these players, once again if your good enough you will make the team. He had Anstey and Mckinnon in his squad of 12, what more do you want and how many more young players do you want??? he was there to wi Australia a medal you idiot.he also had 4 other players no older than 27...

Uneducated? Please. :eek:
truth hurts doesn't it.... ;)

Edit - Andrew Gaze (Capt), Chris Anstey, Mark Bradtke, Martin Cattalini, Andrew Gaze, Ricky Grace, Shane Heal, Luc Longely, Sam Mackinnon, Brett Maher, Paul Rogers, Jason Smith, Andrew Vlahov. This was the 2000 team in Sydney.
Maybe you could have added the ages in here for everyone to see :thumbsu:



If Jason Smith was injury free – Patrick Mills would not be in the side. If Sammy McKinnon was injury free – good buy Joe Ingles.
WTF.... how does Jason Smith replace Patrick Mills??? Smith is a SG and Mills is a PG. Who would be our back up PG for CJ??? There was no way Mills was missing out on the Olympics.

Sam McKinnon would have replaced Ingles would he have?? ok we will replace a SG/SF that is one of better 3 point shooters as well for a SF/PF, I can see how the team balances out there. I am so glad you are not involved with anything to do with the australian team.

Saville and Redhage would have been the 2 unlucky ones if Smith and Sammy Mac were fit....
 

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#19
What if Sammy Mac, Stephen Black and to a lesser extent (if still playing) Simon Dwight were all available?
Mills would have been there. Black would ahve played SG. He would have replaced Ingles most probably

Mills and Ingles wouldn't be there.

and vice versa, why would you take Anstey/Saville over Jawai
because Jawai pulled out for his NBA career that is why. Jawai would have been in the Olympics team for sure
 

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#20
What the **** - where did I say we didn’t attempt to win FFS? You can have more than one bloody objective when attempting to achieve something. Go for a medal and look towards the future but he didn’t give a stuff what was going to happen with the side after the Sydney Olympics. Just look at his player selection and say he gave a stuff about the future.

We had the best under 22 team in the world Eighteen months before hand and only 2 ****ing player made the side. Why is that and why are we now a basket case in world basketball – BEST IN THE WORLD. So we had the best 22 and under and only 2 players were developed enough to make the team?
Who shouldn't have made that 2000 Olympics team??? I will give you Grace, but you could not dispute any other player on that squad, as they all deserved to be there.

Oh BTW care to show us the roster for the 1997 Under - 21 Gold Medal team, as I think a few people will laugh at how many players that were on that list that never went on with their careers at the International level.
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#21
FFS it was 8 year ago, it’s easy to look back and say ‘player x’ or ‘player Y’ didn’t utilize their basketball talent so this justifies the decision not to select them. 8 years ago they were very good and 5 or 6 of that squad had unbelievable potential and this shone through in being part of the very best under 21 team in the world. I am not saying every player had the ability to go to an Olympic Games but a shit load more than 3 did (Anstey, McKinnon and Nilsson)

Simon Dwight was a stud but was completely ignored and never represented Australia and any international competition but why? Because they ignored the future by rewarding the youth.

Frank Drimic had the same sort of potential as a Ginóbili and Aaron Trahair was equal to Andre Miller but for one reason or another they never went on with it. Maybe they got jack of the system and stopped caring after missing out so many times, i don’t know. Had they been given that international experience and exposure straight after winning the WC in Australia things may have been different?

Add Ben Pepper or Ben Melmeth to that list of potential player for Sydney 2000 team and they may go on and excel. Ben Melmeth wasn’t a bum; he was a good player in the NBL who produced a 3rd place finish in the MVP.
8 years ago at the age of 19, 20 or 21 – these guys were part of the best under 21 team in the world, fast forward 8 year and basketball in this country is almost dead. Why? because we never utilized there talents at the time. However Argentina did and become a basketball power.

The truth certainly does hurt because we should be a dominating force now but due to decision made by past administrators; we never went on with it and wasted a golden opportunity.
 

Alex99

Cancelled
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Posts
16,941
Likes
1,474
AFL Club
Adelaide
#22
Who shouldn't have made that 2000 Olympics team??? I will give you Grace, but you could not dispute any other player on that squad, as they all deserved to be there.
Your missing my point, they all deserved to be there but strategically Barry Barnes should have selected a few 21 or 22 year olds for the next 2 or 3 Olympic Games and looked forward towards the next transition period rather than the 26 or 27 year old who didn’t have any international experience either.

Rightfully on talent Rogers, Cattalini, Smith and Maher all deserved to be there but Brett Maher was the only player of the quartet who had any international experience, he went to Atlanta. So it's not like he was taking experienced players with him.

Strategically (and yes at the time they were good players) why didn’t they look forward and reward Melmeth/Pepper instead of Rogers, Drimic instead of Smith, Dwight instead of Cattalini and Trahair instead of Maher. Also don’t forget that Smith was the only one of these player to get any sort of significant court time in Sydney so it not like we needed them. So it’s not like Barry Barnes had faith in them, so why select them.

Fast forward to the qualifying period vs. New Zealand with Phil Smyth as senior coach and we had 5 or 6 senior player retire – we now have no experienced to fall back on during that qualifying play off. International basketball is a very different game and New Zealand put a very good side on the court. We slid into obscurity and are still there achieving nothing with that group of players.


Oh BTW care to show us the roster for the 1997 Under - 21 Gold Medal team, as I think a few people will laugh at how many players that were on that list that never went on with their careers at the International level.
1997 U22 World Champions

4 Mann, Brendan Antony 20 Broken Hill
5 Mckinnon, Bradley 21 Adelaide
6 Mackinnon, Samuel 21 Melbourne
7 Nielsen, Matthew Peter 19 Penrith
8 Pepper, Benjamin James 22 Geraldton
9 Dwight, Simon 21 Melbourne
10 McGregor, Scott 21 Newcastle
11 Drmic, Frank 19 Melbourne
12 Melmeth, Benjamin James 22 Waratah
13 Trahair, Aaron 21 Gisborne
14 Anstey, Christopher John 22 Melbourne
15 Doherty, Philip John 21 Bunbury

Players in bold either are or were very good players and had enormous amounts of talent.

But don’t forget this was 11 years ago now; so don’t judge them on what you know now.
 

Richard Cranium

Premiership Player
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Posts
3,401
Likes
4,600
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
PHX
#23
What I don't understand is how, if they couldn't break into the side 3 years after that chamionship, it was Barnes' fault that they never developed to international standard? Some of them were 25 by the 2000 games. Maher, Cat, etc are only a couple of years older and went on to have (and were having at the time) brilliant careers.....
 

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#24
Rightfully on talent Rogers, Cattalini, Smith and Maher all deserved to be there
That is all that is needed to be said and all were 27 and under.


1997 U22 World Champions

4 Mann, Brendan Antony 20 Broken Hill
5 Mckinnon, Bradley 21 Adelaide
6 Mackinnon, Samuel 21 Melbourne
7 Nielsen, Matthew Peter 19 Penrith
8 Pepper, Benjamin James 22 Geraldton
9 Dwight, Simon 21 Melbourne
10 McGregor, Scott 21 Newcastle
11 Drmic, Frank 19 Melbourne
12 Melmeth, Benjamin James 22 Waratah
13 Trahair, Aaron 21 Gisborne
14 Anstey, Christopher John 22 Melbourne
15 Doherty, Philip John 21 Bunbury

Players in bold either are or were very good players and had enormous amounts of talent.

But don’t forget this was 11 years ago now; so don’t judge them on what you know now.

Don't try and be smart, as it clearly does not work for you. :rolleyes: I reckon that back in 2000 you were riding the waves of the Boomers trying to make history and win a mdeal, were you not???

So, what you think you know now and what you were thinking in 2000 are obviously different opinions, but hey that was 8 years ago and I guess we are all older and more educated now ;)
 

AJ_No.4

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Posts
1,186
Likes
0
Location
Down Under
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Liverpool, Bulls, UNC
#25
What I don't understand is how, if they couldn't break into the side 3 years after that chamionship, it was Barnes' fault that they never developed to international standard? Some of them were 25 by the 2000 games. Maher, Cat, etc are only a couple of years older and went on to have (and were having at the time) brilliant careers.....
Neither do I
 
Top Bottom