No non-Vic team has defeated a Vic team in the Grand Final without list or salary cap concessions

[blue harvest]

Except we've just been told that in the past 20 years the home side wins 62% of the time in this competition.

Not 50/50.

We then observe that no non-Victorian side has defeated a Victorian side in the grand final without list or salary cap concessions. So we have a growing body of evidence that the disparity could be even greater.

Maybe the home side is better. There's no rule to say things have to be 50/50. Bulldogs played the same number of games
at the G as Swans in 2016 but you are counting that as a home win? One of, if not the most factually incorrect OPs I have seen.

 

[Vic pokiesmon]

No non-Victorian side has defeated a Victorian side in the grand final without list or salary cap concessions.

From what I have read the salary cap in 2012 was 8.8million.The Swans paid a total of 8million that year with 10%added for cola to every players wage.If u look at the Swans lineup it's understandable how this was achieved.The only real star -Goodes was also the allocated veteran.Happy to be proven wrong but Cola wasn't the reason the Swans won the 2012Premiership.

 

[amer]

Maybe the home side is better. There's no rule to say things have to be 50/50. Bulldogs played the same number of games
at the G as Swans in 2016 but you are counting that as a home win? One of, if not the most factually incorrect OPs I have seen.

Okay, I'll put this in its own paragraph and portend it now all event-like so you can think about its constituent parts niiiiiiiiiiice and sloooooooooowly.

In the past 20 years, on average, an AFL side won 62% of the time at home, and 38% of the time away.

If the home side is just "better," as you say, why is their away record 38%?

 

[blue harvest]

Okay, I'll put this in its own paragraph and portend it now all event-like so you can think about its constituent parts niiiiiiiiiiice and sloooooooooowly.

In the past 20 years, on average, an AFL side won 62% of the time at home, and 38% of the time away.

If the home side is just "better," as you say, why is their away record 38%?

Better on GF day when it counts. Doesn't matter what happens in round 6.

 

[amer]

From what I have read the salary cap in 2012 was 8.8million.The Swans paid a total of 8million that year with 10%added for cola to every players wage.If u look at the Swans lineup it's understandable how this was achieved.The only real star -Goodes was also the allocated veteran.Happy to be proven wrong but Cola wasn't the reason the Swans won the 2012Premiership.

Yeah I'm inclined to agree, in that this is the thinnest advantage any interstate side has had (at least on the surface). Thus we could be looking at 1/6.

However COLA aided in player retention, and also enabled Sydney to spend less of its cap while paying its players the same as other clubs who were using 10% more cap - that's a structural advantage relative to other clubs, and it's highly relevant what they were doing with that in years leading up to 2012, and what they were pitching to players in terms of plans beyond that season, to keep players enticed to stay on. It was a tool they had at their disposal that their rivals did not.

It was enough, in the end, that the AFL saw fit to strip it from their control.

So yes, totally take your point, but without the particulars on hand they meet the definition of a non-Vic side with a concession from the AFL.

They're now also loaded with academy players. Which I think they need, to be honest. I think all non-Vic clubs should have academies, if we're not going to try to average those other major biases out. Throw in Geelong. Possibly also the bulldogs.

 

[amer]

Better on GF day when it counts. Doesn't matter what happens in round 6.

Aw poppit, you don't understand what I'm asking.

Good night.

 

[Vic pokiesmon]

Yeah I'm inclined to agree, in that this is the thinnest advantage any interstate side has had (at least on the surface). Thus we could be looking at 1/6.

However COLA aided in player retention, and also enabled Sydney to spend less of its cap while paying its players the same as other clubs who were using 10% more cap - that's a structural advantage relative to other clubs, and it's highly relevant what they were doing with that in years leading up to 2012, and what they were pitching to players in terms of plans beyond that season, to keep players enticed to stay on. It was a tool they had at their disposal that their rivals did not.

It was enough, in the end, that the AFL saw fit to strip it from their control.

So yes, totally take your point, but without the particulars on hand they meet the definition of a non-Vic side with a concession from the AFL.

They're now also loaded with academy players. Which I think they need, to be honest. I think all non-Vic clubs should have academies, if we're not going to try to average those other major biases out. Throw in Geelong. Possibly also the bulldogs.

Appreciate response.Will respond when I'm a bit more awake in the morning

 

[Ron The Bear]

Things like Dustin Martin having played and been coached full time to play the game on the MCG in about 105 of his 180 career matches, versus Rory Sloane having played 20 games there.

Sloane had his pants pulled down by a 19yo in his fifth game. That wasn't anything to do with the ground.

Come on, regain your dignity.

"Credit to the Richmond Football Club, they were great today and right through the finals series and deserved champions."

- Andrew Fagan

 

[LoungeLizard]

I love how some of you vics confuse stating facts as sooking. Especially on a thread about non vic teams not being able to beat vic teams in grand finals

So i take that as, you have done nothing but sook on here then?

 

[Grin]

That is damning.

West Coast and Adelaide both had solid legs up in the 90s.

It's fun that you're so salty at Richmond's dominant performance in the Grand Final. A game that they obviously would have won anywhere. That you insist that your own clubs premierships were illegitimate

That is damning. And delicious

 

[turtle27]

Technically, yes I did have a problem with that. Now, I know why it happens (because the AFL says it is to maximise crowds, and that applies to us playing Richmond at the 'G as well), but, that doesn't make it right.

BTW, I didn't agree with West Coast or Brisbane having to play a home final against Carlton at the 'G in the '90s (when there was some rule that the 'G got a final every week). I even considered it unfair that Brisbane had to play us at the 'G in 2004, when they finished higher than us (and they only won by 9 points, and we missed some shots for goal, so they were disadvantaged. Lucky for them they didn't have to play us at KP, when they finished higher).

I cannot recall too many mutterings about the Cats having to play home finals at the G last year, and in those previous years, even when you lost to Freo. Seemed to be a considerable uproar this year though. Coincidence?

 

[Freshwater]

I have coached a hell of a lot of footy and you have to adapt to different ground shapes all the time, it is the smallest part of your weeks planning and little tweaks are required and that is all.
Now surely in a professional comp where all they do is prepare for the game ahead then these things cannot be complicated. If professional players can’t adapt to different ground sizes then they are not professional.
You are trying to complicate something that is not complicated. Of course playing at one ground more makes it more comfortable but the ground dimensions should not stop you being able to perform on the day.

Correct. It’s the travel as you said earlier 2 1/2x worse for WA than NSW and SA. But the main thing tends to be the one sided crowd at some venues as opposed to the MCG that always has a balance because of its size, travelling fans and ex-pat. residents.

 

[demondavey]

No non-Victorian side has defeated a Victorian side in the grand final without list or salary cap concessions.

Well I am sorry, but that's bullshit. Prove it.

 

[demondavey]

No non-Victorian side has defeated a Victorian side in the grand final without list or salary cap concessions.

And I am sorry to burst your bubble, but in 2014 Sydney apparently had salary cap concessions. How do you explain the WB winning 4 straight finals in 2016? Or Hawthorn in 15 winning after two consecutive trips to Perth?

Your also failing to recognise that in 14,15,17 we've seen 3 of the most disgusting GF performances.

Sydney in 2014 were in the box seat all year but absolutely folded when it mattered. It wasn't to do with 'concessions' it was the fact Hawthorn bullied them and they couldn't hack it. Tippett, Parker, Rohan were laughable and have also continued there dream run of not performing in big games.

WC in 2015 went into the game having travelled less, with more recovery, with better preparation. They s**t themselves on the day. No one stood up and owned the game. It's all typified by the Darling dropped mark. No pressure, no contest, just a good old fashioned roll over.

Adelaide this year. As has been stated, won 8/10 at the MCG in their recent history. 11 points up at quarter time. Gave a cowards effort for the rest of the game. No leadership, no pressure, no accountability. Piss poor to the extreme.

In 2002 Collingwood almost beat the team apparently full of concessions in Brisbane, Jonathan Brown is on record saying that in 2003 Collingwood didn't get near Brisbane as they were soft. How does this apparent super beast almost get rolled in 2002?

You are making reactive arguments for a very very loosely based concept.

 

[demondavey]

I think you're missing that when you coach at the elite level, everything is done a lot better, and those things that may be swallowed up by other larger inefficiencies at a lower level become the margins that separate professional sides.

Things like Dustin Martin having played and been coached full time to play the game on the MCG in about 105 of his 180 career matches, versus Rory Sloane having played 20 games there.

Well maybe it's called over analysing and over thinking the basics. They are just footballers after all.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Refresh me, what did WCE and Adelaide have in the 90's?

The cream of the strongest Teal Cup side W.A. has ever produced, and the start up concessions

 

[demondavey]

You’re right. The umpiring the last two years has been good. Very fair and unbiased

Just get in front and win ffs, stop whingeing about something you can't control. It's blatantly passing the buck and finding an excuse for your failure. It's pathetic.

 

[parmy2balmey]

I cannot recall too many mutterings about the Cats having to play home finals at the G last year, and in those previous years, even when you lost to Freo. Seemed to be a considerable uproar this year though. Coincidence?

and the uproar was only in week one this year. fk n crickets in week two when they played the swans at the G. hilarious

 

[demondavey]

So seriously, in 2014, 2016 if Sydney had won it would've been due to concessions, yet they didn't win, so what does that tell you about concessions?

Was the 2012 premiership just due to concessions? Because I am pretty sure Hawthorn were well in front at one point and buckled, Sydney taking their opportunity.

What about these so called concessions of the Adelaide Crows? 1997? Well they weren't miles in front were they? Darren Jarman gave a one man wrecking ball performance. In 98 the Crows were getting flogged by an innacurate North Melbourne, why weren't the concessions allowing them to flog North?

You'll conveniently use the concession argument when it suits you, but you won't consider anything the other way. You're full of excuses.

 

[LoungeLizard]

So seriously, in 2014, 2016 if Sydney had won it would've been due to concessions, yet they didn't win, so what does that tell you about concessions?

Was the 2012 premiership just due to concessions? Because I am pretty sure Hawthorn were well in front at one point and buckled, Sydney taking their opportunity.

What about these so called concessions of the Adelaide Crows? 1997? Well they weren't miles in front were they? Darren Jarman gave a one man wrecking ball performance. In 98 the Crows were getting flogged by an innacurate North Melbourne, why weren't the concessions allowing them to flog North?

You'll conveniently use the concession argument when it suits you, but you won't consider anything the other way. You're full of excuses.

You don't get it mate, if a non-Vic side makes the GF, they should win, 100% of the time, no ifs or buts.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I just hope these clubs internally think the same as their defeatist fans

 

[kaiserchief13]

How are forwards forced wider? Can't they just go to the same spot as usual?

Due to the zoning which Melb teams have perfected as they play the ground so often

 

[demondavey]

Due to the zoning which Melb teams have perfected as they play the ground so often

So with full time resources of coaches and hundreds of thousands of dollars you can't find a way to play on a wider ground?

Come on, get real.

 

[Snake_Baker]

So with full time resources of coaches and hundreds of thousands of dollars you can't find a way to play on a wider ground?

Come on, get real.

I'm trying to work out how zoning is supposedly more efficient on a ground with more space.

 

[kaiserchief13]

So with full time resources of coaches and hundreds of thousands of dollars you can't find a way to play on a wider ground?

Come on, get real.

Players are humans they act on instinct. They don't have time to receive the ball and think hey we're on ground A so ground A we have to do this, that etc. If they think they get tackled.