No NRL Expansion as NRL sign new TV deal

[Sydney Bloods]

I thought I read somewhere that Penrith was owned by the same people who own Parramatta and SFS(can't seem to find it now) so just tried to put 2 and 2 together.
It definitely looks to me as though the NRL/NSW Gov is going for more of an AFL styled ground rationalisation which is why itd make more sense to turn Penrith into a 20,000 all seater similar to what Parramatta is now.
Wetherill Park doesn't really make sense and I cant see a new stadium being built just for Parramatta and WSW. No doubt the government will demand more games be played there. Set it up so smaller games at Parramatta, big matches at ANZ and Bulldogs can have back to Belmore and Wests can have a back to Campbelltown type game aswell.
Haha I meant second team in Wellington/Christchurch.

Penrith Stadium is owned by the city of Penrith and operated by Penrith city council (however actual maintenance and gate operations are currently being done by employees of the Penrith Panthers RLC as per the leasing agreement)
Parramatta Stadium is owned by the state of NSW and Operated by Parramatta trust
the SFS is owned by the state NSW and operated by the SCG Trust

the NSW government aren't stupid, This isn't about helping struggling clubs upgrade facilities or reduce overhead costs like what happened in VIC, This is about return for investment. If the league wants the upgrades the government expects their grounds to be the only ones operating. This gives a greater return on the splurge of cash from the government.

my hope is the clubs self sufficient model means the club wont be forced to move anytime soon and can see off the governments push to control footy for the say the next decade or so. Penrith Panthers model see's them currently breaking even just from football operations, This means they don't need to utilise the leagues club grant and thus 100% percent of it flows back into junior footy on top of that juniors also get their own club grants.

However the NSW government has ruled out further upgrades to the ground altogether because its not owned by the state and with the eastern grandstand already 36 years old, Maintenance and operating costs will continue to rise just to keep the ground up to safety standards. additionally football operations are expected to increase dramatically over the next decade with the salary cap slated to rise to 11 million by 2025.

unless there's concessions made by the NSW government such as buying the ground or taking operating control through a trust, long term its unsustainable to keep playing at what will become a rotting ground.

Perhaps if the club took control of the ground thus reducing costs and allowing the club to get returns for naming rights something could be done. But Penrith city council is never going to invest the money required to upgrade the stadium in the future and if they tried rent payers would crack the shits. and panthers group don't have the finances to fund major upgrades, it took 4 years to pay off the $18 million they spent on the ground in the mid 00's.

 

[bigpoppa]

Penrith Stadium is owned by the city of Penrith and operated by Penrith city council (however actual maintenance and gate operations are currently being done by employees of the Penrith Panthers RLC as per the leasing agreement)
Parramatta Stadium is owned by the state of NSW and Operated by Parramatta trust
the SFS is owned by the state NSW and operated by the SCG Trust

the NSW government aren't stupid, This isn't about helping struggling clubs upgrade facilities or reduce overhead costs like what happened in VIC, This is about return for investment. If the league wants the upgrades the government expects their grounds to be the only ones operating. This gives a greater return on the splurge of cash from the government.

my hope is the clubs self sufficient model means the club wont be forced to move anytime soon and can see off the governments push to control footy for the say the next decade or so. Penrith Panthers model see's them currently breaking even just from football operations, This means they don't need to utilise the leagues club grant and thus 100% percent of it flows back into junior footy on top of that juniors also get their own club grants.

However the NSW government has ruled out further upgrades to the ground altogether because its not owned by the state and with the eastern grandstand already 36 years old, Maintenance and operating costs will continue to rise just to keep the ground up to safety standards. additionally football operations are expected to increase dramatically over the next decade with the salary cap slated to rise to 11 million by 2025.

unless there's concessions made by the NSW government such as buying the ground or taking operating control through a trust, long term its unsustainable to keep playing at what will become a rotting ground.

Perhaps if the club took control of the ground thus reducing costs and allowing the club to get returns for naming rights something could be done. But Penrith city council is never going to invest the money required to upgrade the stadium in the future and if they tried rent payers would crack the shits. and panthers group don't have the finances to fund major upgrades, it took 4 years to pay off the $18 million they spent on the ground in the mid 00's.

Yeah I'm a Penrith supporter myself. Haven't been there since 2002 before I moved to Tas. How would they go for support wise playing out of Parramatta/ANZ? I saw one game earlier this year at Penrith - Warriors I think, had only 8,000 people or something. Penrith still an hour train ride from Homebush isn't it? Would people travel when they wont travel to Penrith?

On another note.. What is it they have built on the Panther scoreboard hill?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Yeah I'm a Penrith supporter myself. Haven't been there since 2002 before I moved to Tas. How would they go for support wise playing out of Parramatta/ANZ? I saw one game earlier this year at Penrith - Warriors I think, had only 8,000 people or something. Penrith still an hour train ride from Homebush isn't it? Would people travel when they wont travel to Penrith?

On another note.. What is it they have built on the Panther scoreboard hill?

i believe the 8,000 you still rock up, at this point its pretty much the core that show up. The issue is we very rarely get any opposition to show. penrith is a small club i think there's only 16,000 members. whilst moving to homebush could help us for some games such as the bulldogs parra and wests this doesn't solve the problem. those clubs already have a strong turnout especially for the parra game its always to the point where the stadiums locking the gates.
and when we look at the dogs and tigers playing at homebush, the inner city teams still don't attend anyway. Attendance issues won't be solved by moving grounds, it may in fact dampen them as at least right now its local for the locals. as you said an hour train ride from penrith, its also and hour from the city, 1.5 from campbelltown, 40 minutes from west hornsby. about 10 years from manly and 2 civilisations from cronulla.

homebush does however offers a guarantee of $100,000 return to the home clubs per game regardless of who turns up, Basically the club would make around a million dollars from the deal even if only 2 people attended.

Scoreboard hill has had the entry and facilities rebuilt here's what it looks like now, look at those lovely pathways! no more trekking through the mud:

 

[theRainbowGame]

Will be interesting to see if this GF has any effect on the additional rights.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Will be interesting to see if this GF has any effect on the additional rights.

Why would it? The rights to the GF are already done. The ratings are going to be huge, they're going to beat the AFL's ratings - but they're irrelevant to the last 5 games of the NRL rights.

 

[theRainbowGame]

Why would it? The rights to the GF are already done. The ratings are going to be huge, they're going to beat the AFL's ratings - but they're irrelevant to the last 5 games of the NRL rights.

A game like that would have 110% converted some new fans for league. TV stations always want a growth product.

 

[nobbyiscool]

A game like that would have 110% converted some new fans for league. TV stations always want a growth product.

One off games rarely, if ever have that effect. Certainly not when people will wake up tomorrow and they'll still love Jonathon Thurston, but they'll go right back to not caring about the Cowboys.

Maybe my feel is a bit warped having spent 7 years in a one-team town (Canberra) compared to now living in a 10-team town (Melbourne) - but I always felt that rugby league fans love their state first, their club second (often their junior/local club with their NRL club third), and then the actual game itself is a distant last. Aussie rules fans, I think, love the game first and their club second.

Aside from having lived in these cities, we saw evidence in the mid-90s. A lot of Fitzroy fans followed their team to Brisbane, a lot of others found other teams to support. Compare that to North Sydney Bears fans, many of whom were lost to the sport completely.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

One off games rarely, if ever have that effect. Certainly not when people will wake up tomorrow and they'll still love Jonathon Thurston, but they'll go right back to not caring about the Cowboys.

And importantly there's not a game for new fans to watch next week. This will be old news by March.

 

[Milang_Panthers]

Will Dav Smiths resignation help or hinder the hopes for expansion?

 

[papabear]

shark park will remain the sharks own the ground, Penrith stadium is another matter, we'll hold out for as long as we can but crowds as low as they are, s**t transport and limited parking its inevitable, which sadly means ANZ due the guaranteed returns.

PNG is joke it'll never happen, Adelaide is a pipe dream at this stage i cant see it really working.
central coast wont get a team due to the issues facing the knights and the fact that manly and easts are continual raiding the central coast juniors.
seems the only likely candidate out of that lot is NZ2.

IMO penrith has better parking and is easier to drive to then most stadiums in sydney.

The problem with some clubs is the stadium issue, traffic etc.

IMO penriths biggest problem is somewhere between the size of the supporter base and the actually support received from that base.

 

[Heardy_101]

Will Dav Smiths resignation help or hinder the hopes for expansion?

Help.

 

[Aucklander]

Disappointing to lose, David. Thought he'd done a very good job despite the constant attacks on him. I think the game took a step backwards today.

 

[papabear]

One off games rarely, if ever have that effect. Certainly not when people will wake up tomorrow and they'll still love Jonathon Thurston, but they'll go right back to not caring about the Cowboys.

Maybe my feel is a bit warped having spent 7 years in a one-team town (Canberra) compared to now living in a 10-team town (Melbourne) - but I always felt that rugby league fans love their state first, their club second (often their junior/local club with their NRL club third), and then the actual game itself is a distant last. Aussie rules fans, I think, love the game first and their club second.

Aside from having lived in these cities, we saw evidence in the mid-90s. A lot of Fitzroy fans followed their team to Brisbane, a lot of others found other teams to support. Compare that to North Sydney Bears fans, many of whom were lost to the sport completely.

I think that is also due to the management of the particular codes at the time.

Despite, what other threads suggest the move to Brisbane was a smart move by the administration, the team is just in a s**t period atm.

Whereas the northern eagles merger shouldn't have been allowed to happen whereby manly retain the license, if the merger dies, both clubs should have died with it, then the clubs would have really thought about whether they wanted to merge or relocate.

 

[JD Tomahawk]

Why do some Sydney based teams have bugger all membership? Haven't they been around long enough. Even the new AFL expansion teams will pass that in a few years.
Close up shop and hand the license over so that a Perth team can get involved. They embrace everything over there. Would be an instant success in terms of crowd numbers.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Why do some Sydney based teams have bugger all membership? Haven't they been around long enough. Even the new AFL expansion teams will pass that in a few years.
Close up shop and hand the license over so that a Perth team can get involved. They embrace everything over there. Would be an instant success in terms of crowd numbers.

league has never had a background in memberships. Hell when penrith won the 91 premiership the club didn't even sell "memberships" you bought a leagues clubs membership and got discounted footy tickets as a perk.

 

[Heardy_101]

Tha

league has never had a background in memberships. Hell when penrith won the 91 premiership the club didn't even sell "memberships" you bought a leagues clubs membership and got discounted footy tickets as a perk.

That's pretty much it with NRL. You don't buy a team membership, you buy a "Leagues Club" membership which gives you the same perks. My old boss still has his old North Sydney Leagues club card.

 

[JD Tomahawk]

league has never had a background in memberships. Hell when penrith won the 91 premiership the club didn't even sell "memberships" you bought a leagues clubs membership and got discounted footy tickets as a perk.

That would explain it. I'd do the same thing. It's very old school I will say.
What about crowd attendance?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

That would explain it. I'd do the same thing. It's very old school I will say.
What about crowd attendance?

super league war and the fact that the game is very, very blue collar. most blue collar workers pull OT.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

What about crowd attendance?

At the risk of starting a shitfight, some Sydney clubs just aren't that popular.

Super League was 18 years ago.

 

[Heardy_101]

At the risk of starting a shitfight, some Sydney clubs just aren't that popular.

Super League was 18 years ago.

If people are still bringing up the league war then they need to get over themselves. It was indeed 18 years ago and while some clubs appear to still be struggling as a result (which is bullshit - it's self-justification for being consistently crap aka Cronulla and Parramatta), it's really only Murdoch that keeps bringing it up. It's no secret he probably wants another SL. Heck, if it makes the NRL/ARL realise how unviable some current Sydney clubs are, then they migt finally act and tell them to merge, relocate or face being booted.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

If people are still bringing up the league war then they need to get over themselves. It was indeed 18 years ago and while some clubs appear to still be struggling as a result (which is bullshit - it's self-justification for being consistently crap aka Cronulla and Parramatta), it's really only Murdoch that keeps bringing it up. It's no secret he probably wants another SL. Heck, if it makes the NRL/ARL realise how unviable some current Sydney clubs are, then they migt finally act and tell them to merge, relocate or face being booted.

no its the fallout from the superleague war which has caused the damage. this was the first year the panthers got more then one saturday arvo slot in 3 years last year the vast majority of penrith games were on a monday night. You cannot grow small team when the games on at 1930 on a school night when most folk are at or returning from work or barely had time to cook dinner, each and every week.

there's plenty of blame on the clubs for not doing enough to attract members and crowds but you cannot excuse successive NRL administrations when they were out to settle scores and help their mates.

as for this nonsense that Sydney clubs are unviable it's pure propaganda. there's only club in sydney which requires AFL style league funding which is the tigers. the only other Sydney club in danger is the dragons.

There is a fundamental difference between the way NRL clubs are run and the way AFL clubs are run. The vast majority of NRL clubs run and fund junior leagues not just clubs but entire leagues and this is done via the leagues club in most cases.

the money generated by clubs is designed to cover only operating costs, of the NRL team with all other revenue like off field assets directed to the leagues club. this is why prices vary so much from club to club. because ticket prices are set in line with operating costs. If a club fails to cover operating costs they get a leagues club grant to cover the shortfall. rather than a cut of leagues club profits annual. This is for two reasons 1 is to dodge taxes 2 is so that the NRL club cannot hoard cash and rob the the junior leagues (the two clubs in sydney without proper juniors are easts and manly and they operate like carlton and the pratts as a result)

even if every game was sold out you would not see AFL style profits because most clubs would alter prices in line with the club charter to keep profits from the NRL club small.

In the AFL off field assets like pokie dens generate income into clubs directly the club is treated as a financial asset rather than an mini adminstration for the local league, what they contribute to the club which owns them is a lot more than any leagues club grant. They take a percentage of profits and count that as club revenue, most AFL clubs with an NRL setup would require grants much much higher then any Sydney NRL team.

the panthers world of entertainment alone made a profit of $17 million dollars last year (with the club owning an additional 40 something clubs across the state which in total saw $51 million dollars redirected to local footy comps in NSW), To pretend the PRLC is struggling because it only made a profit of a few hundred grand is nonsense there is more than enough money which can be redirected to the club if it needs to. The club made a small profit because the club is designed to only break even, in other words it outperformed its charter.

Likewise the sharks are in no trouble there debt is a paltry $3 million the operating costs are between $13-$17 million and the club is set to rake in $45 million from a property develop in addition to football revenue.

and again parramatta although it had to turn to the leagues club for a grant the leagues club still made $12.5 million dollars in profits after that grant.

the simple fact is the NRL clubs are not designed or run to make massive profits no matter how big or small they are, their debts are a fraction of operating revenue and apart from the tigers no sydney team's debt is anything to even be slightly concerned about.

The only issue facing sydney based NRL clubs is their pitiful crowds, Which is a major major issue but it's not going to make them unviable anytime soon. the terrorgraph can post all the end of the world news columns it likes, but financially the Sydney clubs are on solid ground.

 

[Aucklander]

Optus have brought the EPL tv rights for Australia. I would think there has been a major advantage shift to the NRL here with this news.

 

[imadodgyumpire]

For outsiders like us, there's been a shift in power. But I think Smith/NRL Commission have a better idea of what's going on. This wouldn't be a surprise to them.

 

[Aucklander]

For outsiders like us, there's been a shift in power. But I think Smith/NRL Commission have a better idea of what's going on. This wouldn't be a surprise to them.

Completely agree. I think more than a few people have been sucked in by the News ltd. driven agenda against him.

 

[Freight Train]

Damn, was really looking forward to getting behind a Perth team.

You'd have no problem getting people through the gates, we have that many Kiwis here who love rugby, the Rabbitohs/Warriors game earlier this year was an absolute sellout.