Society/Culture Nobody has anything new to say about God.

[Substance]

To me the NDE argument doesn't get you anywhere. All your work is still ahead of you to somehow link the experiences to a specific religion.

Isn't it strange how a catholic's NDE will reflect their catholic beliefs, and a Hindu's NDE will be consistent with their prior held beliefs, and so on. For this reason I'm prepared to say that these experiences are something that is merely occuring at the level of the brain and not anything supernatural. It could just be an evolutionary thing to help our minds cope with trauma.

 

[Total Power]

To me the NDE argument doesn't get you anywhere. All your work is still ahead of you to somehow link the experiences to a specific religion.

Isn't it strange how a catholic's NDE will reflect their catholic beliefs, and a Hindu's NDE will be consistent with their prior held beliefs, and so on. For this reason I'm prepared to say that these experiences are something that is merely occuring at the level of the brain and not anything supernatural. It could just be an evolutionary thing to help our minds cope with trauma.

This exactly what NDE is not.

Individuals, regardless, of age, race, religion, or national origin have reported similar experiences during a near-death episode. The chi-square method of statistical analysis has been used by near-death researchers to determine if the similarity of events reported during the \near-death experience, by experiencer, are a result of chance or are to be expected elements of the near-death experience (Morse, 1990, Ring, 1980, 1985).

 

[Russian Demon]

Funny how alien sightings are rarely reported in 3rd world countries, US is leading this for a reason. It will be great to see aliens show up in Nigeria but they almost never do. NDE is exclusive of religion, culture, location, creed etc.

But it does happen in other cultures, just not in the same way. Its also not recorded or documented in a lot of countries, just as it used to be ignored in the USA.

 

[Substance]

This exactly what NDE is not.

Individuals, regardless, of age, race, religion, or national origin have reported similar experiences during a near-death episode. The chi-square method of statistical analysis has been used by near-death researchers to determine if the similarity of events reported during the \near-death experience, by experiencer, are a result of chance or are to be expected elements of the near-death experience (Morse, 1990, Ring, 1980, 1985).

The whole thing is an argument from ignorance in any case. We can't explain NDEs fully, so therefore there is an afterlife. By the way that still doesn't get you anywhere near a god, let alone one that writes books and performs miracles.

We know enough about the brain and consciousness to say that it's dependant on the physical condition of the brain. You damage certain areas of the brain, you lose certain functions. For this near death stuff to be real, you'd have to explain how someone could be conscious without a brain.

 

[Total Power]

But it does happen in other cultures, just not in the same way. Its also not recorded or documented in a lot of countries, just as it used to be ignored in the USA.

Only to those who are aware of the concept of aliens or extra terrestrials. However the whole alien seeding/hypothesis is also up for debate. Its not a foregone conclusion

 

[Total Power]

The whole thing is an argument from ignorance in any case. We can't explain NDEs fully, so therefore there is an afterlife. By the way that still doesn't get you anywhere near a god, let alone one that writes books and performs miracles.

We know enough about the brain and consciousness to say that it's dependant on the physical condition of the brain. You damage certain areas of the brain, you lose certain functions. For this near death stuff to be real, you'd have to explain how someone could be conscious without a brain.

Who is actually mentioning god? did i? miracles? what miracles? catholics who actually had NDE's , plenty of them stopped reading the bible and started advocating the need to spread love and happiness.God is not an entity, you are god. We just choose not to be, cause of our ego. There are plenty of Muslims who reported NDE's who had similar experiences. There are several cases where visions like different people taking different path were trying to reach the top of the mountain. The top of the mountain is happiness and trying to find the meaning of life, we take different paths, religion is merely a path you can choose to take but its not compulsory. I suggest you read a few NDE's.

 

[Substance]

Who is actually mentioning god? did i? miracles? what miracles? catholics who actually had NDE's , plenty of them stopped reading the bible and started advocating the need to spread love and happiness.God is not an entity, you are god. We just choose not to be, cause of our ego. There are plenty of Muslims who reported NDE's who had similar experiences. There are several cases where visions like different people taking different path were trying to reach the top of the mountain. The top of the mountain is happiness and trying to find the meaning of life, we take different paths, religion is merely a path you can choose to take but its not compulsory. I suggest you read a few NDE's.

It's the title of the thread. I assumed you'd be arguing NDEs as evidence for something supernatural. Is this not the case?

 

[Total Power]

It's the title of the thread. I assumed you'd be arguing NDEs as evidence for something supernatural. Is this not the case?

No, the god of organised religion doesn't exist, god is no entity that listens to your prayers and heals the sick. Dr Francis Collins (christopher hitchen's personal friend) one of of the genius and leader of Human Genome project and also a devout christian, said to Hitchens in his entire career spanning 40 years he never seen a miracle in the medical world. If catholics believe god is listening to their prayers good on them, but there no such god out there.I am smashed from pillar to post here by the religious ones and by atheists cause i dont fit in either of these categories, the only way to experience the universal consciousness (god, which we are a part of) is to meditate, you will see its remarkably similar to NDEs, without any oxygen deprivation etc.

 

[Russian Demon]

You had me until:

"the only way to experience the universal consciousness (god, which we are a part of) is to meditate"

Meditation is a really interesting thing, and definitely something under appreciated or understood by western science.... But at the end of the day you've just made an assertion about the nature of the meditative state that as far as I know, isn't supported by anything other than anecdotal evidence.


The main criticism of all of this from a skeptics/rationalist perspective is simply that the best demonstrable way to believe the most true things and the fewest false things is to make ''I don't know" the default answer until you get some good reasons to believe it.

If personal experience, or anecdotal evidence for something is enough for you, then great. But if you lie in that category then that is often seen as an aknowledgement that you don't care if its true or not.... demonstrated by the fact a more reliable method of determining whether it is or not is available yet you choose not to use it.

But this is all in the name of good spirited discussion. As long as its a free easy exchange, and you're not using your beliefs to push stuff onto other people, I don't see why we can't all get along.

 

[Total Power]

You had me until:

"the only way to experience the universal consciousness (god, which we are a part of) is to meditate"

Meditation is a really interesting thing, and definitely something under appreciated or understood by western science.... But at the end of the day you've just made an assertion about the nature of the meditative state that as far as I know, isn't supported by anything other than anecdotal evidence.


The main criticism of all of this from a skeptics/rationalist perspective is simply that the best demonstrable way to believe the most true things and the fewest false things is to make ''I don't know" the default answer until you get some good reasons to believe it.

If personal experience, or anecdotal evidence for something is enough for you, then great. But if you lie in that category then that is often seen as an aknowledgement that you don't care if its true or not.... demonstrated by the fact a more reliable method of determining whether it is or not is available yet you choose not to use it.

But this is all in the name of good spirited discussion. As long as its a free easy exchange, and you're not using your beliefs to push stuff onto other people, I don't see why we can't all get along.

I have repeatedly stated in this thread, not to believe me, in what i am telling you. I also repeatedly stated to verify this through your own experiences through the prescribed methods. I agree this is anecdotal, cause i can't meditate for you, you must do it yourself, hence this can be dismissed just like that. The method has been tried, tested and verified for thousands of years by spiritual masters, but to you, they must all be liars since this cannot be tested in a lab. I am not 'pushing' my 'beliefs' on anyone, infact i hate the word 'belief' and i am asking people not to 'believe' me. I am not how else can i put it out there so that people can get the point i am making here?

Similarly NDE is also anecdotal, then we must dismiss all the claims since it's anecdotal? i don't think any skeptics out there disbelieve that spiritual experiences are a part and parcel of NDE, they only argue that its the brain misfiring, which is a fair enough argument. So why should anecdotal experiences be dismissed when it comes to meditation? it's impossible to have scientific data for meditation and i cannot meditate for you, but you must experiment yourself, i stated dozens of times in this very thread not to believe in anything i am anything, yet i must be pushing dogmas right?

The wonderful thing about the scientific method is that the odds of setting up a "testable" environment with "standard measurements" aren't possible/feasible in the event of an NDE or meditation. So it is thrown in the too hard basket and anyone who mentions them are crackpots.

On the contrary, I talk about ego as a collection of psychological defects which are perpetually changing, and are therefore impermanent.

It is Western culture who generally views "ego" as one entity, and one which we hang the concept of "self" on. However, it is merely a collection of competing mental actions, all of which arise and disappear over time.

I flat out refuse to follow the 'God' of science. I love physics and cosmology and biology and all ologies for that matter, but it is a very, very, very limited way of understanding the Universe. Anyone suggesting otherwise is afflicted by he same psychological disorder that once saw the Earth as the centre of the Universe!

The biggest problem in this thread is people advocating that the scientific method is the only method about learning things.If this is the case then why not be your own scientist then? I am merely encouraging you to delve deeper into other streams of thought. These other streams of thought are not inferior derivatives of knowledge, they are simply different interpretations of knowledge, which anyone can gain in the INTERNAL WORLDS available to ALL via meditation.

I can't reason you anything! You have to engage in your own scientific research through self-experimentation

 

[Russian Demon]

I have repeatedly stated in this thread, not to believe me, in what i am telling you. I also repeatedly stated to verify this through your own experiences through the prescribed methods. I agree this is anecdotal, cause i can't meditate for you, you must do it yourself, hence this can be dismissed just like that. The method has been tried, tested and verified for thousands of years by spiritual masters, but to you, they must all be liars since this cannot be tested in a lab. I am not 'pushing' my 'beliefs' on anyone, infact i hate the word 'belief' and i am asking people not to 'believe' me. I am not how else can i put it out there so that people can get the point i am making here?

Similarly NDE is also anecdotal, then we must dismiss all the claims since it's anecdotal? i don't think any skeptics out there disbelieve that spiritual experiences are a part and parcel of NDE, they only argue that its the brain misfiring, which is a fair enough argument. So why should anecdotal experiences be dismissed when it comes to meditation? it's impossible to have scientific data for meditation and i cannot meditate for you, but you must experiment yourself, i stated dozens of times in this very thread not to believe in anything i am anything, yet i must be pushing dogmas right?

The wonderful thing about the scientific method is that the odds of setting up a "testable" environment with "standard measurements" aren't possible/feasible in the event of an NDE or meditation. So it is thrown in the too hard basket and anyone who mentions them are crackpots.

On the contrary, I talk about ego as a collection of psychological defects which are perpetually changing, and are therefore impermanent.

It is Western culture who generally views "ego" as one entity, and one which we hang the concept of "self" on. However, it is merely a collection of competing mental actions, all of which arise and disappear over time.

I flat out refuse to follow the 'God' of science. I love physics and cosmology and biology and all ologies for that matter, but it is a very, very, very limited way of understanding the Universe. Anyone suggesting otherwise is afflicted by he same psychological disorder that once saw the Earth as the centre of the Universe!

The biggest problem in this thread is people advocating that the scientific method is the only method about learning things.If this is the case then why not be your own scientist then? I am merely encouraging you to delve deeper into other streams of thought. These other streams of thought are not inferior derivatives of knowledge, they are simply different interpretations of knowledge, which anyone can gain in the INTERNAL WORLDS available to ALL via meditation.

I can't reason you anything! You have to engage in your own scientific research through self-experimentation

I understand your point, especially about the depths of meditation. But naturalistic explanations and these internal worlds arent mutually exclusive.

You can observe an effect but not know the cause. Some causes im not sire if they can be ever known.

But the reality still exists that if u care about whether something is true, then you would go for rationalism. If you dont then thats fine too, but if you think you know these things in any sense beyond yourself then its simply a delusion.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Total Power]

I understand your point, especially about the depths of meditation. But naturalistic explanations and these internal worlds arent mutually exclusive.

You can observe an effect but not know the cause. Some causes im not sire if they can be ever known.

But the reality still exists that if u care about whether something is true, then you would go for rationalism. If you dont then thats fine too, but if you think you know these things in any sense beyond yourself then its simply a delusion.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

Thanks for your reply, atleast you are trying to understand my point unlike Snakey (who got pretty much nothing to say outside of ad homs and whom i should really stop replying to) in this thread equating everything to sky fairy.

I'm not attacking science mate. If you are going to "watch the shadows" so to speak, then just observe them and report them. However, don't extrapolate your observation into anything more, for you may influence it with your prejudice.

My exception in this thread came from people (materialists) claiming that science is interested in the "truth", but as David Bohm said, you can only experience it in finite ways by observing it. From a gnostic perspective, one cannot experience truth via intellectual observation, which is why the intellect needs to be rested through transcendental meditation. But let me explain:

let's look deeper at the mind. We have 5 to 10 percent consciousness. For just about everyone, we are born with it, unforunately, it is hypnotised and unawakened by the 90% unconsciousness of which we will now might call ego or subconscious.

The consciousness is a very high part of ourselves. The part that loves [and usually we don't love correctly in life hence the problems associated with it -we unfortunatley love from the unconsciousness] everyone, that comprehends everything in the Universe and lives moment to moment in unadulterated ecstasy.

So the 90% ego/unconsciousness, the part we are usually live in, basically has two parts. The part we can live in, think with and a deeper part which we cannot access [unless we study and work hard] which is very disgusting, monstrous and foul. It is very heavy stuff that is in our mind and we probably couldn't handle it.

so yeah, we actually live in the unconscoius or ego most of the time and this is why we suffer so much, why the world is full of wars and starving people in Africa as the minds of all reflect the world we live in.

esoteric studies looks to change the 90% into the 10% and then awaken the full 100%. As you can see by the numbers, it is an uphill battle at best

Interestintly, if we do go deeper, the conscious and the unconscious are two parts of the same coin [kind of, not exactly true but for this example, basically correct - we would have to talk about ego and essence], incidentally, the difference is the unconscious/ego is hypnotised/conditioned incorrectly.

If your interested in looking at your unconscious, spend 10 minutes in silence and just watch the thoughts float into your mind and see what they are. You will find you won't be able to stop them coming in. I guess the question is, if you can't stop thoughts coming into your mind, then do you control you mind???? We may also notice that your mind is not oneness but a million different thoughts and ideas all trying to reach your conscoiusness and control it.

The consciousness is a very different, almost abstract ideal to us. The closest that regular people get to this would be the birth of a child and this would be nowhere near the power or beauty of it unfettered. The love, the beauty, the charity, humility, temperance, etc. The unconsciousness is the hate, fear, pride, envy, greed, boredom, skepticism that we all possess and which drive us to misery.

But back to NDE, your nitpicking! If I go for a walk in the park and you go for a walk in the park in different locations, we will see different dogs, different trees, see different play equipment, find out something unusual...but at the end of the day, we both went for a walk in the park, went through the front door, walked down a footpath, saw a park and then went home. Similarly, alol NDEers go through the same process (more or less). They learn about nature of the universe, have a life review...well, you know the steps, and they're consistent! this is at the very least a basis for scientific hypothesis! way better than the RNA model of evolution scientists proposed which is not consisting with the scientific method at all, but who am i to say it? NDE is given some serious attention by well known neuro surgeons from all over the world, just tell them about having rationalism so no further research is required, we got it all sorted out, 5 senses is all we have, no more explanations needed. Got it.

Similarly scientists have performed hundreds of experiments on the meditative brain, its improbable that someone can sit in freezing weather in a robe for hours and meditate without feeling the cold, its possible, there is the famous harvard research which posts to monks controlling their body through meditation. Kindly read the article above , meditation does extraordinary things to the body, that is because mind and body although related are not the same thing. I have personally known monks who can meditate in a robe for hours in -5/-10C without even getting goosebumps. This is all scientific! but again, at the very least if meditation doesn't work for you, you can cure stress! this is also scientific.

The researchers also made measurements on practitioners of other forms of advanced meditation in Sikkim, India. They were astonished to find that these monks could lower their metabolism by 64 percent. “It was an astounding, breathtaking [no pun intended] result,” Benson exclaims.

To put that decrease in perspective, metabolism, or oxygen consumption, drops only 10-15 percent in sleep and about 17 percent during simple meditation. Benson believes that such a capability could be useful for space travel. Travelers might use meditation to ease stress and oxygen consumption on long flights to other planets.

then there's this

In 1985, the meditation team made a video of monks drying cold, wet sheets with body heat. They also documented monks spending a winter night on a rocky ledge 15,000 feet high in the Himalayas. The sleep-out took place in February on the night of the winter full moon when temperatures reached zero degrees F. Wearing only woolen or cotton shawls, the monks promptly fell asleep on the rocky ledge, They did not huddle together and the video shows no evidence of shivering. They slept until dawn then walked back to their monastery.

This is extraordinary scientific data (even Harvard scientists admit it), cause deep state meditation is an extraordinary state of "being". There is no magic involved either. But no, i cannot show you how to meditate, neither i can meditate for you, do it yourself, this is consistent with the scientific process, like any good scientist don't dismiss it without experimentation.

But don't believe anything i am telling you, science says meditation makes you conscious of your "unconscious" brain which is what i stated above This is scientific, i cannot provide you with any more data to atleast form a scientific hypothesis here. At the very least the atheist can consider these as extraordinary results and reconsider the mind-body relationship.

This is why both meditation and NDE are hot topics in consciousness research. MIT is presently researching parts of the brain activated by meditation, the initial findings are the "happy parts" of the brain are activated through meditation!

If you want to read further, read how atheist and neurologist Sam Harris talks about the body mind relationship, which i posted earlier in the thread.

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/sam-harriss-vanishing-self/

However, one can discover specific truths about the nature of consciousness through a practice like meditation. Religious people are always entitled to claim that certain experiences are possible — feelings of bliss or selfless love, for instance.

From Sam Harris, an atheist! This is scientific, but not the science the atheists approve of, this is based on self-experimention! Harris is quoted often in these forums and is a part of the four horsemen. If you want to go deeper, learn what shunyata is in buddhism

You can only go that far with science, the rest is on you and self-experimentation, all i can say is be open minded and consider alternate views unlikely close minded materialists here.


Apologies for the long post, i have given enough pointers in this thread, i don't think i have anything else to all to the topic, i don't expect a half decent response from the usual suspects here, but look forward to a response from you. Cheers

 

[M Malice]

I've tried meditation many times over the years and I can't still the mind to a sufficient degree to get that much out of it. As Total Power says though, I find it nigh on impossible to block out random thoughts. Concentrating on deep breathing is probably the method I used the most.

Now the closest I come to a meditative state would be when I go for a long run, I'll be jogging along and all off a sudden you snap into awareness and think where have I been for the last minute or so, it's like you've lost a bit of time. Sometimes I get that while driving, you're on automatic pilot, a bit off putting while driving though.

 

[Total Power]

I've tried meditation many times over the years and I can't still the mind to a sufficient degree to get that much out of it. As Total Power says though, I find it nigh on impossible to block out random thoughts. Concentrating on deep breathing is probably the method I used the most.

And we still think we control our own minds funny that. As i said above, its an uphill battle, the ego will not let you access, what it doesn't want you to access.

 

[Total Power]

I've tried meditation many times over the years and I can't still the mind to a sufficient degree to get that much out of it. As Total Power says though, I find it nigh on impossible to block out random thoughts. Concentrating on deep breathing is probably the method I used the most.

Now the closest I come to a meditative state would be when I go for a long run, I'll be jogging along and all off a sudden you snap into awareness and think where have I been for the last minute or so, it's like you've lost a bit of time. Sometimes I get that while driving, you're on automatic pilot, a bit off putting while driving though.

Some good discussion here about people's experience with meditation and depression, hope this helps you.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Ok so lets assume its a biological process and it's hallucination, so everyone in the world from all cultures races, creed, religion having the "exact same" hallucination????

These are not biological human beings? I mean, can you understand how such a comment could be seen as ignorant?

When we dream or take LSD's we dream/hallucinate the exact same thing don't we????

No, not in my experience.

Anyone who has taken Ketamine would tell you we hallucinate different things and this is documented.

Yes. And?

Heck, you need to have more faith than catholics do with jesus waking up from dead and travelling cities. Welcome to the world of materialist faith.

Your ability to distort concepts, apply non related information and arrive at emphatic conclusions is elite.

There's only one fundamentalist here. You.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You are not reading, the chance that RNA sequencing lead to DNA is remote, considering its such a poor catalyst. Read the original paper.

So what?

The chances of us all sitting here communicating with computers is remote, but here we are.

"perhaps", "it has been speculated", "hypothetical" RNA molecule, "just an idea", "evidence is feeble at best", "no real substance to back it up", "it is speculation" if often used in the original hypothesis. But if you dare question the RNA world hypothesis, you will immediately be labeled a radical fundamentalist Bible thumper. (See remarks throughout this thread for examples of that.). The religion of science at its best.

Your vandalism of theoretical physics was painful enough, I am not going to invest large chunks of my time in the same exercise with evolutionary genetics.

 

[Total Power]

Your vandalism of theoretical physics was painful enough, I am not going to invest large chunks of my time in the same exercise with evolutionary genetics.

I assume you know what RNA world is all about? i can bet my bottom dollar that you never heard of RNA world hypothesis before Roy mentioned it, even Roy conceded this point, you, of course, won't concede anything. Why do i waste my time replying to you? you never reply to the point instead attack the person, typical athestic nonsense, learn from Russian Demon or Roy how to debate the topic. If you got nothing to say to what i wrote above then just STFU

 

[Total Power]

These are not biological human beings? I mean, can you understand how such a comment could be seen as ignorant?

*facepalm*, literally. You have outdone your "non-local" consciousness understanding here even LOL! really enough, you can now talk to yourself.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I assume you know what RNA world is all about? i can bet my bottom dollar that you never heard of RNA world hypothesis before Roy mentioned it, even Roy conceded this point, you, of course, won't concede anything. Why do i waste my time replying to you? you never reply to the point instead attack the person, typical athestic nonsense, learn from Russian Demon or Roy how to debate the topic. If you got nothing to say to what i wrote above then just STFU

It's a hypothesis belonging to a field of science that is in its infancy.

What do you put in its place, when you dismiss it? Anything?

 

[Snake_Baker]

*facepalm*, literally. You have outdone your "non-local" consciousness understanding here even LOL! really enough, you can now talk to yourself.

Poster gets shown up, poster posts the above as a response, poster posted the following just prior to this post:

you never reply to the point instead attack the person, typical athestic nonsense, learn from Russian Demon or Roy how to debate the topic. If you got nothing to say to what i wrote above then just STFU

 

[Snake_Baker]

I can see what Total Power is saying, I find it very interesting/strange that different cultures/races would have similar NDEs eg. light at the end of a tunnel.

Where is culture & race physically located in the brain?

 

[Total Power]

It's a hypothesis belonging to a field of science that is in its infancy.

What do you put in its place, when you dismiss it? Anything?

Exhibit A. You don't read anything, then you go "blah blaah blah you are stupid". I never said it was not a hypothesis, i said RNA world hypothesis is one of the weakest hypothesis amongst the probable hypotheses out there in regards to abiogenesis. Most of it is pure speculation. Factually NDE and anything i presented above are much more probable hypothesis than anything in this field.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I never said it was not a hypothesis, i said RNA world hypothesis is one of the weakest hypothesis amongst the probable hypotheses out there in regards to abiogenesis. Most of it is pure speculation.

Yeah? And why would anyone bow to your judgement on such matters?

Of course it's speculation, it's a hypothesis.

Factually NDE and anything i presented above are much more probable hypothesis than anything in this field.

Factually what?! How did you manage to dismiss the first point and then arrive here? Where is the correlation?

 

[Total Power]

Yeah? And why would anyone bow to your judgement on such matters?

Of course it's speculation, it's a hypothesis.

i guess you have no idea what i am talking about? Should have known lol Google types of hypothesis and parameters of a good hypothessis and you are welcome.

Factually what?! How did you manage to dismiss the first point and then arrive here? Where is the correlation?

See above.

Enough, if you don't know anything about hypothesis (cause everything is the same to you), you are wasting your time pretending to be clever. See ya