Society/Culture Nobody has anything new to say about God.

Apr 24, 2013
81,024
153,170
Arden Street Hill
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
Consciousness is a thing, or it isn't. You claim non-locality have no consensus, that means local consciousness must have consensus? its either/or, cannot be both. So if you cannot explain consciousness through locality, then beyond biology explanation if extremely plausible. There is nothing unscientific about that and billions and billions of dollars would not be invested in researching this if there is a "consensus" that brain = consciousness. Despite requesting details about consensus on locality , all you have done is deflect. The fact remains we cannot define consciousness by limited ourselves to the physical only. If you disagree show me the scientific consensus. There is a "lot" of science out there which agrees with my statements above, there is none out there which limits consciousness to the physical, would you like to try again?

You seriously want me to present scientific consensus that consciousness has never been exhibited outside of the human CNS?

Have you honestly been reduced to this?
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
You seriously want me to present scientific consensus that consciousness has never been exhibited outside of the human CNS?

Have you honestly been reduced to this?

Is that what you understand by "locality" and "non-locality"? dear lord, there is no point...absolutely NONE to reply to you further.
 
Apr 24, 2013
81,024
153,170
Arden Street Hill
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
Is a jelly fish conscious? is a single cell organism conscious? or they are inanimate things?

1) No.
2) No.
3) Animation (to impart motion or activity) is not synonymous with consciousness.
 
Apr 24, 2013
81,024
153,170
Arden Street Hill
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
How the **** did you arrive at that conclusion?



I have no interest in engaging in this pointless Chopra-esque rabbit hole bullshit with you.

So a jelly fish does not respond to its environment? well ok then!

Maybe you want to go back and now learn what locality and non-locality means now?
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
Oh no, I am reasonably confident that is the case.

Says the one who doesn't know what he was arguing for 20 pages, go back and read what locality and non-locality is. Where does non-locality states CNS is not needed? you are a complete fool, maybe you want to click on the the research papers i linked, but oh wait, you got to be able to read a couple of lines for that. Non-locality does not mean consciousness exist outside of CNS in "similar form".Read the neuroquantology paper i pasted.
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
You're completely ****ing nuts.
Yes i am totally nuts, for asking a valid question. Do you know what the definition of consciousness is? does a jellyfish interact, prey, defend itself? they also have quite complex eyes, all this is possible without a central nervous system! too much for you i know, jellyfish is one of the oldest known creatures in the planet, basic "self awareness" at work, that even without a CNS, that was my point. "Awareness" is fundamental to us all! consciousness is fundamental too. Some work at a very basic level, some complex.


But yeah all roads lead to Deepak for you, he is living rent free in your head i see, don't worry, someday you might be able to say "i dont know" instead of pretending or lying.
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
How can creatures like dogs and rats and chimpanzees have a concept of fair - which they do and it's proven as such, without a concept of self?

Science has been silent on this subject, only until recently though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...self-awareness-new-study-claims-10325129.html

Ofcourse an animal has the concept of self. Have you been to an abattoir? as terrible as it looks , take a look at the animals standing the line behinds the ones butchered in front of them and their reaction. Is that not an awareness of self?
 

chelseacarlton

BLUE it's the Magic Number
10k Posts Sensible Type Chess Club Member Pantskyle
Apr 13, 2008
23,737
33,143
So Frang
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
The Anti-Theists
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Definition of atheism
: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods:
a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

On the other hand agnosticism says:
“Agnosticism may mean no more than the suspension of judgment on ultimate questions because of insufficient evidence, or it may constitute a rejection of traditional Christian tenets.”

The definition is very clear, disbelief in god! evidence of otherwise an atheist is a materialist. If you do not fall under the category then:

Why not call yourself a agnostic then? if you are not sure there is no god, then you are by definition a agnostic person. Richard dawkins says he 6.9/7 certain there is no god, so he is "almost certain" there is no god, from my understand of your posts you are the same, so you do not qualify under your definition, how can you be "sure" that god didnt create us? if you say there is no evidence but i can't be sure, i understand but you are saying materialism all that exists and nothing exists outside of material world is a position of pure faith. Hence you exactly fall under the definition sagans atheism.

The quotes are not wrong, read up on Sagan mate, he clearly said he doesn't believe in a god depending how you define god.

From Washington times:

I e-mailed the person who would know Sagan’s views better than anyone: Ann Druyan, Sagan’s widow. I specifically asked her about the quote in my 1996 story (“An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God”). Druyan responded:

“Carl meant exactly what he said. He used words with great care.He did not know if there was a god. It is my understanding that to be an atheist is to take the position that it is known that there is no god or equivalent. Carl was comfortable with the label ‘agnostic’ but not ‘atheist.'”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...did-he-believe-part-1/?utm_term=.16902c8db0a1

You are saying a great scientist is wrong and you know more about this than him! well ok then, i dont think anything else needs to be said.

But going back to gods

Einsteins god is extremely plausible, he had the deepest respect for hindu cosmology based on the spirituality, there are youtube videos of him acknowledging it.

Right, so consciousness itself is not an evidence? how about the universe itself? So 14 billion years ago there was nothing and now here we are, just by accident and that requires no belief. Accident!
Fair enough!
No one knows if it was an accident,it however becomes the greatest of issues when the first cause is applied.
It is most likely not an accident,but a natural occurrence,the first natural occurance!
It can’t be supernatural in this instance,because it is natural,causing nature to occur!
Again,how do you there was nothing?
That’s been argued I spose,but some believe that perhaps there was a something in which the natural order expanded into or exploded from.
It’s all assumptions at that level,again my issue remains the same,I don’t like prime mover/causation as the starting point!
That’s why religion is false!
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
Fair enough!
No one knows if it was an accident,it however becomes the greatest of issues when the first cause is applied.
It is most likely not an accident,but a natural occurrence,the first natural occurance!
It can’t be supernatural in this instance,because it is natural,causing nature to occur!
Again,how do you there was nothing?
That’s been argued I spose,but some believe that perhaps there was a something in which the natural order expanded into or exploded from.
It’s all assumptions at that level,again my issue remains the same,I don’t like prime mover/causation as the starting point!
That’s why religion is false!

Dawkins have said if you give a monkey infinity he will write shakespeake. But 14 billion years is not infinity. Our universe (lets talk about the solar system) is guided by precise and clear mathematical laws. They are an accident? do you know what the probability of such an accident occuring would be in 14 billion years which tiny on a cosmic scale?

But see i still dont see atheism as a logical position, i mean agnositicm clearly is the most logical position here, and i am fine with that.
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
Consciousness is something humans have put themselves both at the bottom and top thresholds of.
In the majority of experiments that are specifically about consciousness, the subjects are human, and the criterion that is used is verbal report: in other words, subjects are asked to describe their experiences, and their descriptions are treated as observations of the contents of consciousness." These methods are obviously heavily biased towards humans, we can't just ask a chimpanzee if it self aware, let alone jelly fish, we must infer it from their behaviours and how they interact with their physical and social worlds. Easier said than done.
 
In the majority of experiments that are specifically about consciousness, the subjects are human, and the criterion that is used is verbal report: in other words, subjects are asked to describe their experiences, and their descriptions are treated as observations of the contents of consciousness." These methods are obviously heavily biased towards humans, we can't just ask a chimpanzee if it self aware, let alone jelly fish, we must infer it from their behaviours and how they interact with their physical and social worlds. Easier said than done.
The same is seen in IQ testing, usually the group who wrote the test perform the best.
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
The same is seen in IQ testing, usually the group who wrote the test perform the best.

The bigger question is, if its not conscious where does the awareness come from? my coffee mug is not aware. Although there isnt enough science on this, awareness comes from consciousness but at a very basic level.
 
Aug 19, 2004
34,418
14,191
Grand Finals
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Other Teams
Team Rafael Nadal
Here is a great article about consciousness. It's not that whacky, to suggest everything is conscious. It's only when i suggest its ridiculous lol. Sorry m8, science doesn't depend on what you think to be true, the possibilities are endless!

https://www.wired.com/2013/11/christof-koch-panpsychism-consciousness/

IT’S A QUESTION that’s perplexed philosophers for centuries and scientists for decades: Where does consciousness come from? We know it exists, at least in ourselves. But how it arises from chemistry and electricity in our brains is an unsolved mystery.

Neuroscientist Christof Koch, chief scientific officer at the Allen Institute for Brain Science, thinks he might know the answer. According to Koch, consciousness arises within any sufficiently complex, information-processing system. All animals, from humans on down to earthworms, are conscious; even the internet could be. That’s just the way the universe works.

“The electric charge of an electron doesn’t arise out of more elemental properties. It simply has a charge,” says Koch. “Likewise, I argue that we live in a universe of space, time, mass, energy, and consciousness arising out of complex systems.”
 

Jack Gun Cyril Stun

Club Legend
Oct 5, 2012
1,237
1,504
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I didn't realise the religious were so triggered over Stephen Hawking.
DYRLMOgVoAAtz9t.jpg

Haha...I like the “im not judging” part, I’m all about love and forgiveness, but just excuse me while we throw a party and dance on your grave to celebrate your damnation.

I have a few relatives that are super religious (when it suits of course) and i can’t help it when we have the big extended family gatherings to seriously talk of converting to Islam, mainly bc of the 72 virgin incentive. It sets off quite a chain of events.
 
Apr 24, 2013
81,024
153,170
Arden Street Hill
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
“The electric charge of an electron doesn’t arise out of more elemental properties. It simply has a charge,” says Koch.

“Likewise, I argue that we live in a universe of space, time, mass, energy, and consciousness arising out of complex systems.”


Is this supposed to be some type of intellectual revelation?
 
Back