Non-AFL chat thread

[Hard Ball Get]

Shittest eastern conference playoffs ever.

The Cavs will be undefeated through the eastern finails, but it's a lot less impressive than it sounds.

 

[immortalmike]

No way that Sanders could win. This country would never elect a Socialist Jew. He's only been a Democrat for a year. Jeez, even I've been one for 16 years. Universal healthcare here? Free public universities? "Tell him he's dreaming." Sanders has not been vetted this election. Hillary has been playing nicey nicey with him as to not alienate his supporters. And he's too damn old!

I remember when the US would never elect a young black man with the name Barack Hussein Obama.
Check the polls. Clinton lost her lead and at least 2 have Trump ahead. Sanders beats him by 8 to 12 points in all of them, he wins with independents, the young and Republicans. Hillary also has been doing nothing but alienating his supporters calling them sexist Bernie bros, violent, far left and unhinged. All the while courting the establishment rather than the people. Her campaign has been a disaster

 

[the dog's kennel]

I remember when the US would never elect a young black man with the name Barack Hussein Obama.
Check the polls. Clinton lost her lead and at least 2 have Trump ahead. Sanders beats him by 8 to 12 points in all of them, he wins with independents, the young and Republicans. Hillary also has been doing nothing but alienating his supporters calling them sexist Bernie bros, violent, far left and unhinged. All the while courting the establishment rather than the people. Her campaign has been a disaster

Sorry man, I reckon there's a lot wrong here. I don't want to fill up pages critiquing. But in summary:

- There is no comparison between Obama and Sanders. Obama's perceived electoral problems were fears about his race. They were never based on personality, policy, biography - any of the things that elections actually turn on. Those fears were also only expressed very early on - and by mid-2008 no-one who had any clue thought Obama was anything but a genuine shot. By contrast, Sanders' policy platform is completely unelectable. You find me an American who is prepared to vote for SIGNIFICANTLY higher taxes. They simply do not exist - whether they get free healthcare out of it or not.

- Furthermore, Obama had a MUCH broader coalition in 2008 than Sanders has today. This is the reason why Clinton has effectively smashed Sanders when Obama had her number in '08 (even though she was a considerably stronger candidate in '08). This is something Sanders supporters forget - Clinton is a TERRIBLE candidate, yet she still had his measure. That says something about how weak a candidate Sanders is. (Caveat: it is hard to pin down exact coalitions because of my fifth point!)

- Trump is ahead in the polls right now because the Republican race is over, so they are unifying behind him. The Dem race is still going - as soon as it is officially over, the Sanders supporters will get behind Clinton and she will lead in the polls again. This is what happens every time a primary ends. People always say it won't happen this time. It happens every time.

- Sanders has consistently lead in every Head-to-head poll with Trump by much bigger margins than Clinton. That is true. And that is for a number of reasons. The main one is that Clinton can't attack him from the right in a Dem primary. So most people are simply unaware of the unelectable parts of Sanders' platform. That would not be the case in the general election. There have been many polls conducted on this - as soon as people know the murky details of Sanders platform, support for it plummets.

- I could go into detail debunking all the stuff about independents etc. But it's incredibly complicated and will make everyone's eyes glaze over. Suffice to say that extrapolating general election votes from primary results is idiocy. This is because most of Sanders supporters and Clinton's supporters in a primary would vote for each other in a general election. And those who wouldn't would be dwarfed by the fact that 5 times as many voters come out in the general election anyway. If you hear anybody arguing that Sanders or Clinton will definitely win X or Y demographic group in a general election because of primary results then ignore them. By the way if you don't believe me, there are countless polls showing that a much higher rate of Sanders supporters say they would vote for Clinton supporters in the general then Clinton supporters said they would vote for Obama in 08. And they all came round in the end.

- Oh, and if you seriously believe that any Republicans would vote for Sanders you are kidding yourself. They are partisans so they hate the Dem frontrunner (Clinton). As soon as Sanders becomes the Dem frontrunner they will hate him too. Also a number of them are trying to do anything to sabotage Clinton because they fear her. There is a reason millions of dollars have been spent by Republicans running troll ads trying to help Sanders win primaries, and Trump is currently trying to encourage Sanders supporters to revolt.

- Finally this..... "Hillary also has been doing nothing but alienating his supporters calling them sexist Bernie bros, violent, far left and unhinged. All the while courting the establishment rather than the people.".... is just embarrassing. Please provide one quote from Clinton saying anything of the kind. According to you she has done "nothing but" this - so you should have thousands of quotes at your disposal. Hillary supporters have said all that, and Bernie supporters have said all kinds of stupid stuff too. Welcome to an election campaign - candidates can't control or be held responsible for their enthusiastic supporters.

- By contrast, in the world of reality, Clinton has spent almost the entire campaign pushing left desperately trying to capture Bernie's support base. She has sucked up to the youth endlessly despite them showing no interest in her at all. And she hasn't needed to appeal to the establishment because she has had them in her pocket from day one.

- Clinton is a massively flawed candidate, she really is. But Sanders is worse. What the Dems needed this year was Elizabeth Warren running. She would have been much better than either of them. The Dems are very lucky that all the decent Republicans got smashed by Trump. Cause Trump could possibly be even LESS electable. Fingers crossed!

TLDR: I disagree with you.

 

[immortalmike]

Sorry man, I reckon there's a lot wrong here. I don't want to fill up pages critiquing. But in summary:

- There is no comparison between Obama and Sanders. Obama's perceived electoral problems were fears about his race. They were never based on personality, policy, biography - any of the things that elections actually turn on. Those fears were also only expressed very early on - and by mid-2008 no-one who had any clue thought Obama was anything but a genuine shot. By contrast, Sanders' policy platform is completely unelectable. You find me an American who is prepared to vote for SIGNIFICANTLY higher taxes. They simply do not exist - whether they get free healthcare out of it or not.

- Furthermore, Obama had a MUCH broader coalition in 2008 than Sanders has today. This is the reason why Clinton has effectively smashed Sanders when Obama had her number in '08 (even though she was a considerably stronger candidate in '08). This is something Sanders supporters forget - Clinton is a TERRIBLE candidate, yet she still had his measure. That says something about how weak a candidate Sanders is. (Caveat: it is hard to pin down exact coalitions because of my fifth point!)

- Trump is ahead in the polls right now because the Republican race is over, so they are unifying behind him. The Dem race is still going - as soon as it is officially over, the Sanders supporters will get behind Clinton and she will lead in the polls again. This is what happens every time a primary ends. People always say it won't happen this time. It happens every time.

- Sanders has consistently lead in every Head-to-head poll with Trump by much bigger margins than Clinton. That is true. And that is for a number of reasons. The main one is that Clinton can't attack him from the right in a Dem primary. So most people are simply unaware of the unelectable parts of Sanders' platform. That would not be the case in the general election. There have been many polls conducted on this - as soon as people know the murky details of Sanders platform, support for it plummets.

- I could go into detail debunking all the stuff about independents etc. But it's incredibly complicated and will make everyone's eyes glaze over. Suffice to say that extrapolating general election votes from primary results is idiocy. This is because most of Sanders supporters and Clinton's supporters in a primary would vote for each other in a general election. And those who wouldn't would be dwarfed by the fact that 5 times as many voters come out in the general election anyway. If you hear anybody arguing that Sanders or Clinton will definitely win X or Y demographic group in a general election because of primary results then ignore them. By the way if you don't believe me, there are countless polls showing that a much higher rate of Sanders supporters say they would vote for Clinton supporters in the general then Clinton supporters said they would vote for Obama in 08. And they all came round in the end.

- Oh, and if you seriously believe that any Republicans would vote for Sanders you are kidding yourself. They are partisans so they hate the Dem frontrunner (Clinton). As soon as Sanders becomes the Dem frontrunner they will hate him too. Also a number of them are trying to do anything to sabotage Clinton because they fear her. There is a reason millions of dollars have been spent by Republicans running troll ads trying to help Sanders win primaries, and Trump is currently trying to encourage Sanders supporters to revolt.

- Finally this..... "Hillary also has been doing nothing but alienating his supporters calling them sexist Bernie bros, violent, far left and unhinged. All the while courting the establishment rather than the people.".... is just embarrassing. Please provide one quote from Clinton saying anything of the kind. According to you she has done "nothing but" this - so you should have thousands of quotes at your disposal. Hillary supporters have said all that, and Bernie supporters have said all kinds of stupid stuff too. Welcome to an election campaign - candidates can't control or be held responsible for their enthusiastic supporters.

- By contrast, in the world of reality, Clinton has spent almost the entire campaign pushing left desperately trying to capture Bernie's support base. She has sucked up to the youth endlessly despite them showing no interest in her at all. And she hasn't needed to appeal to the establishment because she has had them in her pocket from day one.

- Clinton is a massively flawed candidate, she really is. But Sanders is worse. What the Dems needed this year was Elizabeth Warren running. She would have been much better than either of them. The Dems are very lucky that all the decent Republicans got smashed by Trump. Cause Trump could possibly be even LESS electable. Fingers crossed!

TLDR: I disagree with you.

Great post. I disagree with most of it but it's fantastic.
I can't be stuffed going through my concerns in detail because it's 4 in the morning.
Just three points to mull over.
Obama was called a muslim socialist that would raise taxes through both election cycles with the majority of the American public still believing that he raised taxes. He still won and won easily. You want to see one American who will vote to raise taxes I'll give you several million of them.

Secondly, this election cycle looks like it's going to be about establishment vs non-establishment. That's where Trump and Sanders gained traction. Trump had a big name and used his media acumen quite well in order to gain publicity. Sanders was a little known senator from Vermont who most of the American electorate still probably couldn't pick out of a line-up. Clinton is a household name. Everyone knows she's in the tank for big business and Wall street. The narrative Trump will be able to weave around her will hurt her in this climate far more than he can hurt Sanders. Bernie never attended his wedding for a pay-off.

And lastly I didn't mean Clinton was engaging in these dirty tactics directly I meant her campaign was indirectly. There's a trail that leads from the Obama Boys straight to the Bernie Bros and it's insidious dirty politics. Not to mention the millions spent on hiring online trolls by one of her Super PACs (I realise this isn't her directly but it's strange how it always seems to happen around the Clintons). Further she has attacked Bernie from the right often chiding him for his unrealistic policy and allowing the "liberal" (ha!) media to do the rest.

Oh and one more there is a general rule in American elections and that is the higher the overall turn out the more chance a Democrat has to win. What gets voters to turn up? I remain unconvinced it's Clinton with her platform of incremental change. Maybe the whole first woman president thing might be enough but I worry that people will see through that as the gimmick it is. It is at this point I'm sad that Elizabeth Warren didn't run.

Sanders at least has the working class and youth rhetoric that energizes electorates with the record to back it up. Much like FDR with the new deal. But maybe you're right that he's unelectable and in a regular election I'd probably agree. But this is an election cycle where Trump is already one half, one where he'll expose every lie Clinton has told and every skeleton in her closet, Bernie doesn't really have those. He comes out of the box as an old, curmudgeonly, socialist jew and has been one since Methuselah was a baby. Your point about his murky policy detail is a good one but only if you think Trump would go anywhere near policy talk. I doubt he has the acumen or inclination, elections are rarely won on the back of policy anyhow.

TLDR. I really don't agree with you. But I enjoyed your post.

 

[Leezorr]

Shittest eastern conference playoffs ever.

Its good if you are a cavs fan

 

[Super Hans]

**** yes, OKC. Don't want to see that campaigner Green get another ring.

 

[Floridog]

I have noticed a disappointing lack of love for the NHL on this board, but I just have to mention that I am quite pleased this morning after the Tampa Bay Lightning's come from behind overtime victory over the Pittsburgh Penguins last night. Now, despite a Bulldogs-like run of injuries, the Lightning are one win away from the Stanley Cup finals. I will be at my favorite pub tomorrow night in my Lightning gear cheering them on over a cold brew or three.

CARN THE BOLTS!

 

[Super Hans]

Cannot believe the league aren't giving Green a suspension after he flat out kicked a dude in the plumbs.

 

[Unorth]

Cannot believe the league aren't giving Green a suspension after he flat out kicked a dude in the plumbs.

Even worse when you consider the day before they suspended someone for doing essentially the same thing, but Green's was perhaps worse. Precedent was set but because one is a no name and the other plays for Golden State, well, that's why the decision to not suspend him was made. Hell, Green didn't even get suspended for hitting a ref the other week.

 

[Super Hans]

fronkalicious, bad time of year to be playing your worst basketball..

 

[BEaston]

fronkalicious, bad time of year to be playing your worst basketball..

Massive game today. They must win to have any chance IMO.

Must admit, I'm getting some schadenfreude out it though. Bad person I guess haha. Although it's not the first round, it's reminiscant of GSW knocking my Mavs out in 07 after an epic regular season.

 

[Ozil]

Getting serious 2011 Mavs vibes from this Thunder team.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Thunder getting it done when it counts.

 

[fronkalicious]

Dubs gorn!!!!! Wow

 

[immortalmike]

Dubs gorn!!!!! Wow

It's ****ing shit! I love watching greatness and the Dubs could've had possibly the greatest season ever. Backs against the wall. Come on guys!

 

[Hard Ball Get]

It's ******* shit! I love watching greatness and the Dubs could've had possibly the greatest season ever. Backs against the wall. Come on guys!

Would probably make it even greater if they won from here.

I was saying all along that they'd lose the Western finals.... I was tipping a Spurs title though.

 

[immortalmike]

Would probably make it even greater if they won from here.

I was saying all along that they'd lose the Western finals.... I was tipping a Spurs title though.

Yeah they could have the whole rising up from adversity angle. Would make a great story.

 

[fronkalicious]

Okc are just playing incredible basketball. Hats off to them.

 

[immortalmike]

Okc are just playing incredible basketball. Hats off to them.

Always a danger when they have players as great as Durant and Westbrook.

 

[BEaston]

Getting serious 2011 Mavs vibes from this Thunder team.

Definitely. Can't remember if I posted it in here previously but the similarities between Chandler and Stevens are crazy.

 

[fronkalicious]

It's over.
It's so over.

 

[BEaston]

Well that was a fast turnaround.

I still wouldn't put it past them to take out this series though. If any team can, it's them.

 

[Ozil]

"We not goin' home."

 

[fronkalicious]

Kinda felt like the champ coming out throwing haymakers in the 9th round when behind on points.

Admirable from the dubs, but it still feels over.

 

[Dav1d]

Wow Johnny Depp..