Opposition Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XIV

Red Black and Blue

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Yep. AFL can fund it for the benefit of all clubs. Just like Buddy broke COLA, I think Green will put the academy in the spotlight.

If Green wasn't tied to the academy, we'd 100% agree to a 3-way trade between us, Melbourne and Sydney that sees Daniher + Melbourne's second go to Sydney, pick 3 and 5 come to us and Papley + our future first going to Melbourne.
That way, we'd get one of Rowell, Anderson or Green and another pick. Our need for a top end ball winning mid sorted, Sydney get their man and Melbourne address their desperate need for a small forward.

Because the competition is so compromised, it screws up our own list development.
It's an embarrassment of riches. They can't even fit Hately, Shipley and Caldwell into their sides and will move them on for premiums next year keeping the cycle going. They would be starters for us. The year after they've got Green's KP brother coming through as well. It's ridiculous.
 

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It's an embarrassment of riches. They can't even fit Hately, Shipley and Caldwell into their sides and will move them on for premiums next year keeping the cycle going. They would be starters for us. The year after they've got Green's KP brother coming through as well. It's ridiculous.
I reckon they’ll keep it up until there’s similar numbers coming out of NSW as SA and most of the kids on the lists of the northern clubs are locals.
 

BrunoV

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This competition is so compromised. The academy stuff is getting ridiculous. GWS will basically always contend because they always have top talent lined up. The fact that they can pick up Green after playing in a grand final is frustrating. He'd literally be our best mid in two years if not next year.

If he wants to leave, the receiver will pay a million top 10 picks to restart the cycle.

Sydney have two talented academy-tied players next year. Also had the luxury of picking up Mills, Blakey and Heeney.

Gold Coast will now have access to some talented Darwin prospects that no one can bid on. What does that even mean?

I know all clubs now have NGAs, but it's going to be as good as the zone you have.

It all depends on where the player is from in my view.

The Riverina being zoned to GWS is a farce as was the Nick Blakey scenario.

Anythin NT related is bullshit because it's also AFL heart land.

As dangerous as it is to allow the northern states access to converted rugby players (so many transferable skills if you can get them even as late as 15 or 16 yo) I can live with it because they almost certainly wouldnt otherwise be AFL players.
 

JayJ20

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It all depends on where the player is from in my view.

The Riverina being zoned to GWS is a farce as was the Nick Blakey scenario.

Anythin NT related is bullshit because it's also AFL heart land.

As dangerous as it is to allow the northern states access to converted rugby players (so many transferable skills if you can get them even as late as 15 or 16 yo) I can live with it because they almost certainly wouldnt otherwise be AFL players.
I'm sure the AFL can find a way to fund the academies for the benefit of all clubs instead of implementing the zones.
You can grow the game without needing to grow the northern clubs to the detriment of the other clubs.
 

TheGrizz

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Yep. Soon the other clubs will be campaigning against it hard. If the AFL are desperate for the growth in NSW and Queensland they need to pay up and fund the academies themselves. Same growth without the priority access.
The AFL did run the academies prior to the club's running it.

Problem is the kids weren't interested because it wasn't aligned to a club. If they signed up to play AFL then they could go to Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne etc and have to leave home.

Alternatively, they can play rugby or rugby league and sign onto a teams academy and because they don't have a draft, they can sign with whoever they want.

The Blakey pick up was annoying, and the GWS access to the Riverine was stupid (but fixed, thabkfully) but with Heeney and Mills for example they are on the record as saying that if it wasnt for the Swans academy they would be playing rugby. I am happy for them to have that.
 
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BrunoV

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I'm sure the AFL can find a way to fund the academies for the benefit of all clubs instead of implementing the zones.
You can grow the game without needing to grow the northern clubs to the detriment of the other clubs.

As I said and as TheGrizz has just said, it all depends on whether we are genuinely adding quality players who would otherwise not be playing the game.

I'm happy to accept the logic where it has pretty clearly resulted in the likes of Heeey and Mills.

If these adacemies end up with roll calls of guns then we can revisit it. GC is getting a leg-up at the moment to get it up to scratch.

If all that is happening is that GC and GWS are being forced to use first round picks on their academy players who are from Sydney, Brisbane, GC and regional areas (which are not traditional Australian football areas) all that is really happening is that the talent pool is being expanded and they're being given a chance at sustainability.
 

Red Black and Blue

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The AFL did run the academies prior to the club's running it.

Problem is the kids weren't interested because it wasn't aligned to a club. If they signed up to play AFL then they could go to Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne etc and have to leave home.

Alternatively, they can play rugby or rugby league and sign onto a teams academy and because they don't have a draft, they can sign with whoever they want.

The Blakey pick up was annoying, and the GWS access to the Riverine was stupid (but fixed, thabkfully) but with Heeney and Mills for example they are on the record as saying that if it wasnt for the Swans academy they would be playing rugby. I am happy for them to have that.
If they weren’t in the Swans academy they wouldn’t be professional athletes, far too slight in frame to make it in rugby and so be it. The weighting of the Northern academies has forced the AFLs hand with the NGA zones and it’s destroying the draft which is the fairest equaliser at our disposal. Your future was in your hands, but not anymore.
 

JayJ20

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As I said and as TheGrizz has just said, it all depends on whether we are genuinely adding quality players who would otherwise not be playing the game.

I'm happy to accept the logic where it has pretty clearly resulted in the likes of Heeey and Mills.

If these adacemies end up with roll calls of guns then we can revisit it. GC is getting a leg-up at the moment to get it up to scratch.

If all that is happening is that GC and GWS are being forced to use first round picks on their academy players who are from Sydney, Brisbane, GC and regional areas (which are not traditional Australian football areas) all that is really happening is that the talent pool is being expanded and they're being given a chance at sustainability.
It is heading that way if it isn't already there.

Heeney, Mills, Blakey, Hipwood, Bowes, Zac Williams, Jacob Hopper, Himmelberg, Finlayson, Setterfield and Tom Green are all academy selections.
Most of this list would slot straight into our best 22. Granted a few of them were later selections, but still. Remember, Sydney picked up their guys while contending for a premiership.

This list will likely double in the coming years with Gold Coast set to add Darwin as a zone.

Thing is, it isn't just expanding the talent pool. It is enabling the northern clubs to gain access to the top players from that expansion and giving the rest of that expansion to everyone else. Eg Hopper vs Mutch. Not only that, but it also allows them to continue picking players from the open draft if needed as well.

They have the luxury to trade their own picks for higher picks so that they can select a player before an eventual bid happens. Opposition clubs are also dumb enough to allow it to happen. What are the odds that Melbourne will trade pick 3 for 6 so that GWS can pick up another top end talent + Green?

It's a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
 
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TheGrizz

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If they weren’t in the Swans academy they wouldn’t be professional athletes, far too slight in frame to make it in rugby and so be it. The weighting of the Northern academies has forced the AFLs hand with the NGA zones and it’s destroying the draft which is the fairest equaliser at our disposal. Your future was in your hands, but not anymore.
You are arguing against yourself. If that is the case, isn't it good then that they are in the Swans academy? The swans get guys that no one would have had anyway and in the process they dont use their picks on guys in the open draft (that we now get)

And as an aside, you obviously don't watch that much rugby/league.
Heeney and Mills could both easily play halfback/five-eighth/wing and fullback in league.
And play the number 9, 10 in rugby at their size and ball skills.
 
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Red Black and Blue

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You are arguing against yourself. If that is the case, isn't it good then that they are in the Swans academy? The swans get guys that no one would have had anyway and in the process they dont use their picks on those guys which they would have used on someone in the open draft (that we now get?

And as an aside, you obviously don't watch that much rugby/league.
Heeney and Mills could both easily play halfback/five-eighth/wing and fullback in league.
And play the number 9, 10 in rugby at their size and ball skills.
Because I don’t care if they were lost to the game as individuals. The product of AFL is much better than Rugby. The AFL just don’t have the patience for that growth to happen organically. If that artificial growth rate means unfairly advantaging the Northern teams it isn’t worth it.

And you’re right I don’t watch that sport. It’s pub brawls in the world of MMA.
 
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Lore

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The AFL did run the academies prior to the club's running it.

Problem is the kids weren't interested because it wasn't aligned to a club. If they signed up to play AFL then they could go to Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne etc and have to leave home.

Alternatively, they can play rugby or rugby league and sign onto a teams academy and because they don't have a draft, they can sign with whoever they want.

The Blakey pick up was annoying, and the GWS access to the Riverine was stupid (but fixed, thabkfully) but with Heeney and Mills for example they are on the record as saying that if it wasnt for the Swans academy they would be playing rugby. I am happy for them to have that.
The NRL has one team in Victoria, one in New Zealand and the rest are either NSW or Qld. It's not like they'd ever have to worry about moving to Perth or Adelaide even if they are in an open draft lol. Worst case scenario it's New Zealand, Townsville, or Melbourne (lol).
 

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TheGrizz

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The NRL has one team in Victoria, one in New Zealand and the rest are either NSW or Qld. It's not like they'd ever have to worry about moving to Perth or Adelaide even if they are in an open draft lol. Worst case scenario it's New Zealand, Townsville, or Melbourne (lol).
But that's my point.

IF you're a 14 year old kid in a rugby league or rugby dominated area, and you have the choice of:
A. Playing rugby league, and basically having a 1 in 2 chance of staying in your home state as a NSWelshman, and being able to sign up wherever you want anyway; or
B. Playing AFL, and having a 1 in 9 chance of staying in your home state if you live in NSW or QLD if you enter an open draft

What do reckon they will choose?
With the academy system they can choose AFL and they in the their home state, making it competitive with the NRL or rugby in terms of choice in where you start your senior career
 

TheGrizz

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Because I don’t care if they were lost to the game as individuals. The product of AFL is much better than Rugby. The AFL just don’t have the patience for that growth to happen organically. If that artificial growth rate means unfairly advantaging the Northern teams it isn’t worth it.

And you’re right I don’t watch that sport. It’s pub brawls in the world of MMA.
It's much better....in your opinion. There would be plenty of people who disagree. Particularly in rugby league heartland. And that is the reality of non footballing states in QLD and NSW, the perks and convenience for young athletes and families to pursue interest in rugby is far greater than any appeal the AFL has naturally.
There is no 'organic' growth, it has to be manufactured and appealling for AFL to outcompete the established sporting hierarchy.
Part of that growth comes from the branding - kids are much more likely to follow the AFL if they can run around for a team/academy that has the actual teams badge and alignment. And importantly it includes giving young player as clear, and accessible way to play the sport and potentially giving them a way to stay in their home state.

But that sort of isnt the point really, is it. It's about VFL centric rumination and heartland club's not being able to stand a northern club getting an advantage they don't. On the flip side:
The AFL grand final being played at the MCG every year (and allowing a team like hawthorn to have 3 straight grand finals against inters ttate teams who finished higher than them) - no worries
Roughly 55% of draftees coming from Victoria - nothing to see here
The umpteen amount of Vic guys leaving northern club's to come home every year - nothing wrong with that right?
Club's like Richmond, Collingwood, Essendon etc travelling interstate 4 times a year in comparison to to 10 times for interstate clubs - bad luck guys.

Yeah the northern academies are an advantage, but a necessary ones to grow the game. And one that is lessened by us getting NGA academies in Melbourne and the NT anyway.
But guess what, the league is slanted towards Victorian teams, so we are the last supporters that can whine about a lack of privilege.

And one final thing, if you don't watch a sport, it seems pretty stupid to then make a judgement as to whether some has the prowess to play it.
 

Red Black and Blue

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It's much better....in your opinion. There would be plenty of people who disagree. Particularly in rugby league heartland. And that is the reality of non footballing states in QLD and NSW, the perks and convenience for young athletes and families to pursue interest in rugby is far greater than any appeal the AFL has naturally.
There is no 'organic' growth, it has to be manufactured and appealling for AFL to outcompete the established sporting hierarchy.
Part of that growth comes from the branding - kids are much more likely to follow the AFL if they can run around for a team/academy that has the actual teams badge and alignment. And importantly it includes giving young player as clear, and accessible way to play the sport and potentially giving them a way to stay in their home state.

But that sort of isnt the point really, is it. It's about VFL centric rumination and heartland club's not being able to stand a northern club getting an advantage they don't. On the flip side:
The AFL grand final being played at the MCG every year (and allowing a team like hawthorn to have 3 straight grand finals against inters ttate teams who finished higher than them) - no worries
Roughly 55% of draftees coming from Victoria - nothing to see here
The umpteen amount of Vic guys leaving northern club's to come home every year - nothing wrong with that right?
Club's like Richmond, Collingwood, Essendon etc travelling interstate 4 times a year in comparison to to 10 times for interstate clubs - bad luck guys.

Yeah the northern academies are an advantage, but a necessary ones to grow the game. And one that is lessened by us getting NGA academies in Melbourne and the NT anyway.
But guess what, the league is slanted towards Victorian teams, so we are the last supporters that can whine about a lack of privilege.

And one final thing, if you don't watch a sport, it seems pretty stupid to then make a judgement as to whether some has the prowess to play it.
There was a stack of growth before, they have been the most watched team in Australia since their 05 flag.

The MCG advantage is incredibly overstated. It’s literally a 50/50 split in grand finals between Victorian and Interstate teams. It’s pretty stupid to mention it without basic research...

Even still I’ve watched the sport enough to know those boys clearly lack the hardness to play rugby as both are soft as hell and I think it’s partially to do with their size.
 
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Red Black and Blue

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there’s no surer indication that someone is full of shit than when they desribe a professional athlete as “soft”
Hardly, just giving someone else the benefit of doubt that they can apply the context for the specific sport.

Heeney and Mills have demonstrated they dislike contact and aren’t aggressive at the man at AFL level. Yet that is a more required attribute in rugby. Soft is simply shorthand.
 

Cold Sober

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Recruitment isn't rocket science, go back to the days of recruiters watching country football.
They're out there and a lot of them get overlooked because dad never played with uncle Maurice or went to Scotts Collage.
 

jmoo wan

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Hardly, just giving someone else the benefit of doubt that they can apply the context for the specific sport.

Heeney and Mills have demonstrated they dislike contact and aren’t aggressive at the man at AFL level. Yet that is a more required attribute in rugby. Soft is simply shorthand.
very soft reply.
 

Cold Sober

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there’s no surer indication that someone is full of shit than when they desribe a professional athlete as “soft”
there’s no surer indication that someone is full of shit than when they desribe a professional athlete as “soft”
You're off the mark there old mate, the time and effort they put into getting there is unquestionable.
If they play one game or 300 unquestionable, done great.
But get your head out of your arse,
 

JayJ20

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It's much better....in your opinion. There would be plenty of people who disagree. Particularly in rugby league heartland. And that is the reality of non footballing states in QLD and NSW, the perks and convenience for young athletes and families to pursue interest in rugby is far greater than any appeal the AFL has naturally.
There is no 'organic' growth, it has to be manufactured and appealling for AFL to outcompete the established sporting hierarchy.
Part of that growth comes from the branding - kids are much more likely to follow the AFL if they can run around for a team/academy that has the actual teams badge and alignment. And importantly it includes giving young player as clear, and accessible way to play the sport and potentially giving them a way to stay in their home state.

But that sort of isnt the point really, is it. It's about VFL centric rumination and heartland club's not being able to stand a northern club getting an advantage they don't. On the flip side:
The AFL grand final being played at the MCG every year (and allowing a team like hawthorn to have 3 straight grand finals against inters ttate teams who finished higher than them) - no worries
Roughly 55% of draftees coming from Victoria - nothing to see here
The umpteen amount of Vic guys leaving northern club's to come home every year - nothing wrong with that right?
Club's like Richmond, Collingwood, Essendon etc travelling interstate 4 times a year in comparison to to 10 times for interstate clubs - bad luck guys.

Yeah the northern academies are an advantage, but a necessary ones to grow the game. And one that is lessened by us getting NGA academies in Melbourne and the NT anyway.
But guess what, the league is slanted towards Victorian teams, so we are the last supporters that can whine about a lack of privilege.

And one final thing, if you don't watch a sport, it seems pretty stupid to then make a judgement as to whether some has the prowess to play it.
The only advantage VIC clubs have is the venue of the grand final. Even that, more so for the MCG tenants. Still, Geelong, West Coast, Sydney and Brisbane have proven that talent will trump ability to play a ground well. Only a matter of time for GWS.

Those 55% of VIC draftees have to be shared by 9 clubs if they even request a trade to VIC. Evens up when 50% of clubs are VIC clubs. If someone requests a trade to an interstate club, then it's one of 2 clubs. If they request a trade to VIC, then good luck. Travel for interstate clubs is off-set by strong home ground advantage throughout the season + pre-GF finals compared to the Victorian clubs playing mostly on neutral grounds. Also, we've travelled 6 times a year for the past 3 years. Not that drastic compared to 10, considering we do the double to Perth all the time.

Last 9 grand finals were between VIC and non-VIC clubs. 62.5% of non-VIC clubs (5) made the grand final in that time. 44% of VIC clubs (4) made a grand final in that time. 75% of them being MCG tenants.

Let's give Tom Green to GWS because we want to grow the game in the northern states while we have to find a diamond in the scraps. Oh but they can actually also select players in the open draft if they want like the rest of us if they like them better than the academy players. They can pick the top of the crop from academies, even trade up to pick another player in the open draft and still land their academy prospect, while contending for a premiership. But let them dispense of any academy players they don't want or need because it's "for the good of the game" for those players to play for other clubs.

I'm really not invested enough to enjoy compromising the competition "for the good of the game", especially when I don't believe it is necessary + our recent success rate.

The AFL is obsessed with trying to trump NRL. At what cost though? Soon enough, the support in Melbourne is going to decrease. I've never enjoyed a season less than I did this year. It was a complete shit-show capped off with one of the least entertaining grand finals ever. The hype before the game was non-existent for me. Not many gave a crap. That's the pathway the AFL is heading.
 
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Vindicater

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The only advantage VIC clubs have is the venue of the grand final. Even that, more so for the MCG tenants. Still, Geelong, West Coast, Sydney and Brisbane have proven that talent will trump ability to play a ground well. Only a matter of time for GWS.

Those 55% of VIC draftees have to be shared by 9 clubs if they even request a trade to VIC. Evens up when 50% of clubs are VIC clubs. If someone requests a trade to an interstate club, then it's one of 2 clubs. If they request a trade to VIC, then good luck. Travel for interstate clubs is off-set by strong home ground advantage throughout the season + pre-GF finals compared to the Victorian clubs playing mostly on neutral grounds. Also, we've travelled 6 times a year for the past 3 years. Not that drastic compared to 10, considering we do the double to Perth all the time.

Last 9 grand finals were between VIC and non-VIC clubs. 62.5% of non-VIC clubs (5) made the grand final in that time. 44% of VIC clubs (4) made a grand final in that time. 75% of them being MCG tenants.

Let's give Tom Green to GWS because we want to grow the game in the northern states while we have to find a diamond in the scraps. Oh but they can actually also select players in the open draft if they want like the rest of us if they like them better than the academy players. They can pick the top of the crop from academies, even trade up to pick another player in the open draft and still land their academy prospect, while contending for a premiership. But let them dispense of any academy players they don't want or need because it's "for the good of the game" for those players to play for other clubs.

I'm really not invested enough to enjoy compromising the competition "for the good of the game", especially when I don't believe it is necessary + our recent success rate.

The AFL is obsessed with trying to trump NRL. At what cost though? Soon enough, the support in Melbourne is going to decrease. I've never enjoyed a season less than I did this year. It was a complete shit-show capped off with one of the least entertaining grand finals ever. The hype before the game was non-existent for me. Not many gave a crap. That's the pathway the AFL is heading.
All valid points but you do realise that your last paragraph is meaningless right.

As you get older you wil care less and less but you will be replaced by younger people who do care.

They have more members and viewers now than ever before.

They are ruining the game but they have never been so popular.
 

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