Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVI

[Dave]

Only in the AFL would you have the league sanctioned website celebrating a coach under investigation for pretty serious racial allegations starting his first day at his new job.

Those optics.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Do you really think that will happen?

More likely to get a statue outside Docklands I would have thought

 

[fairbump_playon]

Only in the AFL would you have the league sanctioned website celebrating a coach under investigation for pretty serious racial allegations starting his first day at his new job.

Only in Australia. The NRL would be exactly the same.

Can’t help but look after the old boys.

“Just wait a few weeks. It’ll all die down. You’ll see.”

 

[fishardansin]

Before preseason starts if possible.

Treating it as inconvenient rather than important.

Absolutely disgusting. I've ceased posting on it cause it's just not good for my health.

 

[Howard Moon]

Only in Australia. The NRL would be exactly the same.

Can’t help but look after the old boys.

“Just wait a few weeks. It’ll all die down. You’ll see.”

the old Jordan Peterson rule - if ever you get caught in a media/twitter storm or by an angry mob, don't apologise, brace, and wait 2 weeks - thats the amount of time every news story fizzles out.

 

[ghostdog]

Fagan's return confirmed, Clarkson welcomes investigation

Brisbane's board clears coach Chris Fagan to return to the club immediately as Alastair Clarkson welcomes the investigation's terms of reference

www.afl.com.au

Clarkson to begin as North coach after Roos' board approval

The Kangaroos have approved Alastair Clarkson to start as coach as planned next week

www.afl.com.au

Must be pretty confident they’ll be exonerated… awks if they have to stand them down again when the findings come through.

Awkies to be an Aboriginal player at those clubs right now. It would be hard to look at either Fagan or Clarkson with both eyes open.

 

[ghostdog]

Only in Australia. The NRL would be exactly the same.

Can’t help but look after the old boys.

“Just wait a few weeks. It’ll all die down. You’ll see.”

Worked for the Catholic church until it didn't

 

[fairbump_playon]

Worked for the Catholic church until it didn't

The worm turns eventually. But it took about 25,000 victims on record to pin the church.

Let’s hope Clarkson isn’t too big to wriggle out of this net but it feels like it could go either way despite the horrific and specific allegations.

 

[doug85]

The worm turns eventually. But it took about 25,000 victims on record to pin the church.

Let’s hope Clarkson isn’t too big to wriggle out of this net but it feels like it could go either way despite the horrific and specific allegations.

Far out, ever heard of natural justice? You’ve heard one side of a story and you hope Clarko can’t wriggle out of the net. That’s pretty cruel.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Far out, ever heard of natural justice? You’ve heard one side of a story and you hope Clarko can’t wriggle out of the net. That’s pretty cruel.

Ever heard of forming an opinion quickly based on a very small sample of evidence and an intrinsic dislike for someone?

Look, fair enough. You got me.

But let me give you my prediction of what that other side of the story is.

Clarkson, Fagan & Burt will tell a story about their important role in setting standards for young men. They will tell us that a lot of young men lack the social skills, communication skills and confidence to clean up their social lives. And that their social lives are holding them back from realising their footballing potential. These young men came to the club for help, so the club helped. Years later... revisionist history.. the story is twisted by unhappy partners and the fellas go along with the updated narrative because post footy that is now the easiest course of action. They don't want to admit to their partners they were ever in Clarkson's or Burt's office saying "She said she'd kill herself if I leave her". They were young men in distress, and the club stepped in to do what they couldn't. These were acts of generosity and support.

So what's the evidence either way? Will there be records of text messages and emails that prove one thing or another? Maybe but it's likely to be a they said / she said scenario.

I don't think the evidence will be hard enough for significant penalties to be applied.

I admire you having no opinion on this until all the facts are in. Good discipline and very decent. However, given I'm not a court of law I actually don't need to behave like one, so I'm exercising my citizen's right to an opinion.

I'm arriving at that opinion by balancing what I have heard so far with the explanation I expect from the accused. I'll update my personal opinion once my speculation on the Clarkson/Fagan/Burt defence is replaced with their actual explanation.

For now, my working conclusion is that Hawthorn were highly paternalistic and overstepped significantly in the lives of employees who were vulnerable due to the cult-like, temporary and performance based nature of their employment, with tragic personal consequences. The club didn't care about these consequences. Personally I think there is a racist (or at the very least extremely culturally insensitive) element but I don't think that has to be proven for all this to be way past okay.

Also, if you want to talk cruel.. forcing someone to get an abortion so you can win games of football is cruel. Allegedly.

 

[Saint]

Ever heard of forming an opinion quickly based on a very small sample of evidence and an intrinsic dislike for someone?

Look, fair enough. You got me.

But let me give you my prediction of what that other side of the story is.

Clarkson, Fagan & Burt will tell a story about their important role in setting standards for young men. They will tell us that a lot of young men lack the social skills, communication skills and confidence to clean up their social lives. And that their social lives are holding them back from realising their footballing potential. These young men came to the club for help, so the club helped. Years later... revisionist history.. the story is twisted by unhappy partners and the fellas go along with the updated narrative because post footy that is now the easiest course of action. They don't want to admit to their partners they were ever in Clarkson's or Burt's office saying "She said she'd kill herself if I leave her". They were young men in distress, and the club stepped in to do what they couldn't. These were acts of generosity and support.

So what's the evidence either way? Will there be records of text messages and emails that prove one thing or another? Maybe but it's likely to be a they said / she said scenario.

I don't think the evidence will be hard enough for significant penalties to be applied.

I admire you having no opinion on this until all the facts are in. Good discipline and very decent. However, given I'm not a court of law I actually don't need to behave like one, so I'm exercising my citizen's right to an opinion.

I'm arriving at that opinion by balancing what I have heard so far with the explanation I expect from the accused. I'll update my beliefs once my speculation on the Clarkson/Fagan/Burt defence is replaced with their actual explanation.

For now, my working conclusion is that Hawthorn were highly paternalistic and overstepped significantly in the lives of employees who were vulnerable due to the cult-like, temporary and performance based nature of their employment, with tragic personal consequences. The club didn't care about these consequences. Personally I think there is a racist (or at the very least extremely culturally insensitive) element but I don't think that has to be proven for all this to be way past okay.

Also, if you want to talk cruel.. forcing someone to get an abortion so you can win games of football is cruel. Allegedly.

This is exactly what will happen. It's been thus ever since the story broke (keeping in mind the AFL initially sat on it for at least a week hoping it wouldn't blow up until after GF Day.

The AFL will absolutely let this dwindle out and hope all the talk dies down when the footy starts again (before any investigation findings are released).

There's no way there'll be enough proof that Clarkson said what the player alleged, he'll simply say he didn't and the AFL can't boot him over a he-said he-said dispute. They'll find there were problems in Hawthorn's past, but it's all fixed now, adopt a minor policy change and say "everything is well again".

 

[doug85]

Ever heard of forming an opinion quickly based on a very small sample of evidence and an intrinsic dislike for someone?

Look, fair enough. You got me.

But let me give you my prediction of what that other side of the story is.

Clarkson, Fagan & Burt will tell a story about their important role in setting standards for young men. They will tell us that a lot of young men lack the social skills, communication skills and confidence to clean up their social lives. And that their social lives are holding them back from realising their footballing potential. These young men came to the club for help, so the club helped. Years later... revisionist history.. the story is twisted by unhappy partners and the fellas go along with the updated narrative because post footy that is now the easiest course of action. They don't want to admit to their partners they were ever in Clarkson's or Burt's office saying "She said she'd kill herself if I leave her". They were young men in distress, and the club stepped in to do what they couldn't. These were acts of generosity and support.

So what's the evidence either way? Will there be records of text messages and emails that prove one thing or another? Maybe but it's likely to be a they said / she said scenario.

I don't think the evidence will be hard enough for significant penalties to be applied.

I admire you having no opinion on this until all the facts are in. Good discipline and very decent. However, given I'm not a court of law I actually don't need to behave like one, so I'm exercising my citizen's right to an opinion.

I'm arriving at that opinion by balancing what I have heard so far with the explanation I expect from the accused. I'll update my personal opinion once my speculation on the Clarkson/Fagan/Burt defence is replaced with their actual explanation.

For now, my working conclusion is that Hawthorn were highly paternalistic and overstepped significantly in the lives of employees who were vulnerable due to the cult-like, temporary and performance based nature of their employment, with tragic personal consequences. The club didn't care about these consequences. Personally I think there is a racist (or at the very least extremely culturally insensitive) element but I don't think that has to be proven for all this to be way past okay.

Also, if you want to talk cruel.. forcing someone to get an abortion so you can win games of football is cruel. Allegedly.

I’ll give you a summary of my thoughts.

In my opinion, I’m confident there was some level of cultural insensitivity, paternalistic behaviour and an overreach into the personal lives of some indigenous players. No idea whether every allegation is true.

Clarko could be a sociopath. But I ******* hate pile on culture. We experienced it ourselves with Hird - it drove him to a suicide attempt and a mental health facility.

The allegations will inevitably be a he said/she said that will never be verified to a point where reasonable doubt won’t exist. The AFL will conjure a palatable outcome for the positioning of their brand and we’ll have Dreamtime at the G 2023 and pat ourselves on the back because racism doesn’t exist. Except it does. Watch Eddie Betts on 360 and try not to have a tear in your eye.

It’s a terrible situation whether some, none or all of this is true. If it gives you any comfort, the allegation itself is a brutal punishment. There’s maybe one or two worse things you can be branded in this country that carry a bigger stigma than that of a racist.

TLDR: it’s a sensitive issue and we’re writing in ink. Let’s just be careful not to jump to conclusions

 

[frodos gardener]

Ever heard of forming an opinion quickly based on a very small sample of evidence and an intrinsic dislike for someone?

Look, fair enough. You got me.

But let me give you my prediction of what that other side of the story is.

Clarkson, Fagan & Burt will tell a story about their important role in setting standards for young men. They will tell us that a lot of young men lack the social skills, communication skills and confidence to clean up their social lives. And that their social lives are holding them back from realising their footballing potential. These young men came to the club for help, so the club helped. Years later... revisionist history.. the story is twisted by unhappy partners and the fellas go along with the updated narrative because post footy that is now the easiest course of action. They don't want to admit to their partners they were ever in Clarkson's or Burt's office saying "She said she'd kill herself if I leave her". They were young men in distress, and the club stepped in to do what they couldn't. These were acts of generosity and support.

So what's the evidence either way? Will there be records of text messages and emails that prove one thing or another? Maybe but it's likely to be a they said / she said scenario.

I don't think the evidence will be hard enough for significant penalties to be applied.

I admire you having no opinion on this until all the facts are in. Good discipline and very decent. However, given I'm not a court of law I actually don't need to behave like one, so I'm exercising my citizen's right to an opinion.

I'm arriving at that opinion by balancing what I have heard so far with the explanation I expect from the accused. I'll update my personal opinion once my speculation on the Clarkson/Fagan/Burt defence is replaced with their actual explanation.

For now, my working conclusion is that Hawthorn were highly paternalistic and overstepped significantly in the lives of employees who were vulnerable due to the cult-like, temporary and performance based nature of their employment, with tragic personal consequences. The club didn't care about these consequences. Personally I think there is a racist (or at the very least extremely culturally insensitive) element but I don't think that has to be proven for all this to be way past okay.

Also, if you want to talk cruel.. forcing someone to get an abortion so you can win games of football is cruel. Allegedly.

It’s a credit to you that you’re open to updating your opinion (I like the phrasing of that, btw) once speculation is replaced by information. I wish more people would do that in general.

 

[ghostdog]

Goddard officially at St Kilda again.
Do your apprenticeship for a couple years, BJ, then come over to Tulla.

 

[fairbump_playon]

It’s a credit to you that you’re open to updating your opinion (I like the phrasing of that, btw) once speculation is replaced by information. I wish more people would do that in general.

Thank you. I do reckon most people here are pretty flexible and reasonable in response to new info. I also respect the position Doug85 took in calling me out for taking a hard line before all the info is in.

 

[MiguelM]

This is exactly what will happen. It's been thus ever since the story broke (keeping in mind the AFL initially sat on it for at least a week hoping it wouldn't blow up until after GF Day.

The AFL will absolutely let this dwindle out and hope all the talk dies down when the footy starts again (before any investigation findings are released).

There's no way there'll be enough proof that Clarkson said what the player alleged, he'll simply say he didn't and the AFL can't boot him over a he-said he-said dispute. They'll find there were problems in Hawthorn's past, but it's all fixed now, adopt a minor policy change and say "everything is well again".

Yep, the saga was going the same way until WADA got involved.

 

[Kong]

Goddard officially at St Kilda again.
Do your apprenticeship for a couple years, BJ, then come over to Tulla.

If he coaches the way he played, his team will be the best in the league at the “stand, point and angrily tell others to pick up your man”.

Our players would love him.

 

[MiguelM]

Only in the AFL would you have the league sanctioned website celebrating a coach under investigation for pretty serious racial allegations starting his first day at his new job.

Just like the Bomberland one.

Hard to find the footy substance. Lots of fluff!

 

[yodellinhank]

If he coaches the way he played, his team will be the best in the league at the “stand, point and angrily tell others to pick up your man”.

Our players would love him.

Our players need him.

 

[ghostdog]

If he coaches the way he played, his team will be the best in the league at the “stand, point and angrily tell others to pick up your man”.

Our players would love him.

That's a bit of a disingenuous reflection. On balance, over his 300+ games, you and I both know he was a competitive beast who demanded the best of those around him, even if that's not slways what he got. He would be an asset to any club.

 

[Kong]

That's a bit of a disingenuous reflection. On balance, over his 300+ games, you and I both know he was a competitive beast who demanded the best of those around him, even if that's not slways what he got. He would be an asset to any club.

I was being facetious.

I thought he was super professional, driven, and highly skilled. I do think he was a lazy hypocrite with manning a player and zone with us, though.

 

[Ati Tude]

Goddard officially at St Kilda again.
Do your apprenticeship for a couple years, BJ, then come over to Tulla.

Can we afford all the lollies that would constantly need to be replaced?

 

[fairbump_playon]

Can we afford all the lollies that would constantly need to be replaced?

Enough lollies for 22 men: $18

Standing and pointing angrily at spilled lollies: priceless

 

[Eleven 38]

Still feel sorry for Goddard, came over full of hope of where we were headed and didn't even make it to march and it was all ****ed.

 

[citizen-erased]

Still feel sorry for Goddard, came over full of hope of where we were headed and didn't even make it to march and it was all ****ed.

Epitome of