Small sample size, but I hope that UAP voter was a misclick. Supports the hypothesis that it skews fairly young, though (although not super young).
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Mega Thread Non-Freo AFL Discussion 2022 - Part 2
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The non-sport sections of the joint are mostly inhabited middle aged men on the dole.
Had a good chuckle at Mitch Robinson getting the “retirement” motorcade at the GF then unretiring the next day 
You ain’t fooling anyone Mitch. It was a delisting masked as a retirement
You ain’t fooling anyone Mitch. It was a delisting masked as a retirement
BeinPurplenGreen
Freo Football Foci
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Inhabited?
If you want young and lefty check out r/afl. Not my cup of tea tbh. Bigfooty’s opinions are varied but a lot people know their footy here.
The herald sun have gone to town on Clarkson and Fagan this morning.
Difficult to see how they can come back from this, the full report is published and it’s incredibly detailed and backed up by a non indigenous coach at the time.
Difficult to see how they can come back from this, the full report is published and it’s incredibly detailed and backed up by a non indigenous coach at the time.
Their memes are sensational though - and the place seems like Freo a lot and clown West Coast fans constantly for sometimes just having a normal opinion (their dick waving they do on here and Facebook isn't taken too kindly so it's painted a target on their backs).
Plus you'd think there was more Freo fans than West Coast if you browsed there from over east.
The fact that all the claims were backed up by another coach is incredibly damning
Piggy Smalls
Piggy’s in the middle
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It’s stuck behind the HS paywall. Any chance you could paste the text?
Mark Robinson
Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and former Hawthorn GM Mark Evans were accused by a fellow Hawthorn coach of running the football department like the “Russian Mafia’’, the club’s review of its handling of Indigenous players reveals.
Two pregnant partners of players lost their unborn children during the “traumatic events’’, the explosive Hawthorn-commissioned report also noted.
The report further concluded that between 2010 and 2016, coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Jason Burt used “bullying and intimidation’’ against Indigenous players and their partners, with the incidents so serious as to “amount to human rights abuses’’.
The Herald Sun has exclusively obtained the full report titled Cultural Safety Review: Of Past and Present Indigenous Players and Staff of the Hawthorn Football Club.
Clarkson, who was appointed North Melbourne coach in August, has categorically denied any wrongdoing.
On Tuesday, Brisbane coach Fagan said: “I confirm, as I said in my earlier statement, that I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club, and that I intend to defend myself.’’
Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan at Hawthorn in 2014. Picture: AFL Photos
It is not possible for the Herald Sun to independently verify the claims or assertions made in the report and the paper does not suggest they are completely true and accurate, only that they have been made and are being investigated by various bodies.
The report asserted that the alleged treatment at the club of First Nations players involved “bullying and intimidation tactics … to be used to isolate First Nations players from their families and communities”.
These “aggressive intimidatory actions were undertaken by the most senior of the coaching and management hierarchy’’, wrote the review’s authors, led by project manager Phil Egan.
A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”
“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.
The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.
“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.
The review includes several pages of harrowing testimony from three partners of players and another player.
As was revealed last week, one testimony claimed Clarkson told a player he should terminate their unborn child.
The report asserts that “partners of players who have tabled the serious allegations were in the early stages of pregnancy, with two mothers losing their unborn child during these traumatic events’’.
The testimony of one partner said: “For three grown men (Clarkson, Fagan and Burt) to have walked into my house with no warning, and intimidate, trap and bully me full well knowing I’m carrying a child is just by no means acceptable.
“I was in complete agony after they left, I felt like my world had just come crashing down.
“If anything was to happen to this baby I would have no choice but to hold the Hawthorn Football Club and those three as individuals responsible and it is the last thing on earth I’d ever want to do.’’
A player told the authors: “My partner and daughter were then not allowed to fly over to Melbourne to come and see me until my daughter was four months old, as the club had told my partner and myself that they would be a distraction to my football career.
“When I was delisted, all my past trauma resurfaced, and I have been extremely unwell since. I am now deemed disabled, and I am on disability support pension, and I am also awaiting NDIS funding for a full time support worker to work with me 7 days a week.
“I have had multiple suicide attempts, multiple stays in the mental health unit at the hospital … the trauma that I deal with every day is because of the way the Club treated myself and my family.’’
Another testimony described a Clarkson visit to their home. “Alister (sic) Clarkson came over to visit us one night. I remember his comments as soon as he entered the house because I was so shocked. Clarko – “Oh (player’s name) this house is nice, you have the kids artwork up and it’s nice and clean. You should invite your teammates over for dinner and things. For all they know you’re living in a shack in the desert somewhere”.
‘’I was insulted straight away. It was clear that this Hawthorn official had a view on how Aboriginal people live and he wasn’t shy in voicing it.’’
Burt issued a statement to the Herald Sun on Tuesday evening.
“I wish to categorically deny the conduct attributed to me in the media. It is difficult to comment more fully in circumstances where I have never seen the report despite my lawyer asking the Hawthorn Football Club and the AFL for a copy,” he said.
“I am aggrieved Hawthorn saw fit to commission the report but did not give me the opportunity to respond to the allegations before the report was finalised and provided to the AFL.
“In my time at Hawthorn, the welfare of all players, including first nation players, was always my primary concern. A number of the first nation players lived in my home with my wife and children.
“It is my hope that the investigation to be conducted by the AFL is both fair and transparent, and that I will be given the opportunity to both give my account and test the accounts of those who have apparently made allegations against me.”
Evans - now Suns CEO - was contacted for comment, but did not respond before publication.
DRAGONS FFC Caro mentioned that as well as the assistant coach that had come forward to corroborate, that a player manager was also willing to testify to back up the claims.Mark Robinson
Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and former Hawthorn GM Mark Evans were accused by a fellow Hawthorn coach of running the football department like the “Russian Mafia’’, the club’s review of its handling of Indigenous players reveals.
Two pregnant partners of players lost their unborn children during the “traumatic events’’, the explosive Hawthorn-commissioned report also noted.
The report further concluded that between 2010 and 2016, coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Jason Burt used “bullying and intimidation’’ against Indigenous players and their partners, with the incidents so serious as to “amount to human rights abuses’’.
The Herald Sun has exclusively obtained the full report titled Cultural Safety Review: Of Past and Present Indigenous Players and Staff of the Hawthorn Football Club.
Clarkson, who was appointed North Melbourne coach in August, has categorically denied any wrongdoing.
On Tuesday, Brisbane coach Fagan said: “I confirm, as I said in my earlier statement, that I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club, and that I intend to defend myself.’’
Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan at Hawthorn in 2014. Picture: AFL Photos
It is not possible for the Herald Sun to independently verify the claims or assertions made in the report and the paper does not suggest they are completely true and accurate, only that they have been made and are being investigated by various bodies.
The report asserted that the alleged treatment at the club of First Nations players involved “bullying and intimidation tactics … to be used to isolate First Nations players from their families and communities”.
These “aggressive intimidatory actions were undertaken by the most senior of the coaching and management hierarchy’’, wrote the review’s authors, led by project manager Phil Egan.
A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”
“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.
The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.
“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.
The review includes several pages of harrowing testimony from three partners of players and another player.
As was revealed last week, one testimony claimed Clarkson told a player he should terminate their unborn child.
The report asserts that “partners of players who have tabled the serious allegations were in the early stages of pregnancy, with two mothers losing their unborn child during these traumatic events’’.
The testimony of one partner said: “For three grown men (Clarkson, Fagan and Burt) to have walked into my house with no warning, and intimidate, trap and bully me full well knowing I’m carrying a child is just by no means acceptable.
“I was in complete agony after they left, I felt like my world had just come crashing down.
“If anything was to happen to this baby I would have no choice but to hold the Hawthorn Football Club and those three as individuals responsible and it is the last thing on earth I’d ever want to do.’’
A player told the authors: “My partner and daughter were then not allowed to fly over to Melbourne to come and see me until my daughter was four months old, as the club had told my partner and myself that they would be a distraction to my football career.
“When I was delisted, all my past trauma resurfaced, and I have been extremely unwell since. I am now deemed disabled, and I am on disability support pension, and I am also awaiting NDIS funding for a full time support worker to work with me 7 days a week.
“I have had multiple suicide attempts, multiple stays in the mental health unit at the hospital … the trauma that I deal with every day is because of the way the Club treated myself and my family.’’
Another testimony described a Clarkson visit to their home. “Alister (sic) Clarkson came over to visit us one night. I remember his comments as soon as he entered the house because I was so shocked. Clarko – “Oh (player’s name) this house is nice, you have the kids artwork up and it’s nice and clean. You should invite your teammates over for dinner and things. For all they know you’re living in a shack in the desert somewhere”.
‘’I was insulted straight away. It was clear that this Hawthorn official had a view on how Aboriginal people live and he wasn’t shy in voicing it.’’
Burt issued a statement to the Herald Sun on Tuesday evening.
“I wish to categorically deny the conduct attributed to me in the media. It is difficult to comment more fully in circumstances where I have never seen the report despite my lawyer asking the Hawthorn Football Club and the AFL for a copy,” he said.
“I am aggrieved Hawthorn saw fit to commission the report but did not give me the opportunity to respond to the allegations before the report was finalised and provided to the AFL.
“In my time at Hawthorn, the welfare of all players, including first nation players, was always my primary concern. A number of the first nation players lived in my home with my wife and children.
“It is my hope that the investigation to be conducted by the AFL is both fair and transparent, and that I will be given the opportunity to both give my account and test the accounts of those who have apparently made allegations against me.”
Evans - now Suns CEO - was contacted for comment, but did not respond before publication.
This could drag out though, the players involved have been advised by their lawyers, not to cooperate with the AFL investigation until they can be sure it will be taken seriously and not another typical AFL rug sweep.
There's also concerns that one of the proposed members of the investigation was involved at Hawthorn during that period and will have a huge conflict of interest.
Check the Age pod for the actual context. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly where in the pod they discuss this, but if you time skip 30 secs at a time, should be able to find it ok.
Real Footy - 'Not going to let this moment slip': Geelong's ageing flag stars like Blues of '95
In this special grand final edition of the Real Footy podcast, wrapping up a memorable 2022 season, chief scribe Jake Niall says he couldn’t help but be reminded of Carlton’s 1995 premiership when watching Geelong, this year's dominant premiers. Got a question about your club? Send it to...
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The whole Hawks stuff is mind boggling.
Anyway, back to the salary cap stuff.
Why isn’t there some sort of standard pay? It would completely stop the luring and greediness etc.
Something so simple like:
Year 1/2 - X amount standard
Year 3/5 - X amount standard
Year 6+ - X amount and going up incrementally.
Have game payments and performance payments standardised.
Allow clubs a small amount of flexibility like + or - 10-15% of amounts.
You can include all sorts of extras like milestones, b&f finishes etc.
So many things could be done but in the end would stop things like Grundy gets $1.2M a year or us ‘luring’ Jackson.
Anyway, back to the salary cap stuff.
Why isn’t there some sort of standard pay? It would completely stop the luring and greediness etc.
Something so simple like:
Year 1/2 - X amount standard
Year 3/5 - X amount standard
Year 6+ - X amount and going up incrementally.
Have game payments and performance payments standardised.
Allow clubs a small amount of flexibility like + or - 10-15% of amounts.
You can include all sorts of extras like milestones, b&f finishes etc.
So many things could be done but in the end would stop things like Grundy gets $1.2M a year or us ‘luring’ Jackson.
Impossible.
That would mean that in year 4, Luke jackson would be paid the same as Liam Henry.
Paying players based on their time of service is not realistic. There’s spuds in their 5th year and their are Brownlow medalists in their 5th year at times. Could be 10 times the difference on salary between both.
Piggy Smalls
Piggy’s in the middle
- Nov 30, 2018
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- Fremantle
Thanks DockerooMark Robinson
Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and former Hawthorn GM Mark Evans were accused by a fellow Hawthorn coach of running the football department like the “Russian Mafia’’, the club’s review of its handling of Indigenous players reveals.
Two pregnant partners of players lost their unborn children during the “traumatic events’’, the explosive Hawthorn-commissioned report also noted.
The report further concluded that between 2010 and 2016, coaches Clarkson, Fagan and Jason Burt used “bullying and intimidation’’ against Indigenous players and their partners, with the incidents so serious as to “amount to human rights abuses’’.
The Herald Sun has exclusively obtained the full report titled Cultural Safety Review: Of Past and Present Indigenous Players and Staff of the Hawthorn Football Club.
Clarkson, who was appointed North Melbourne coach in August, has categorically denied any wrongdoing.
On Tuesday, Brisbane coach Fagan said: “I confirm, as I said in my earlier statement, that I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club, and that I intend to defend myself.’’
Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan at Hawthorn in 2014. Picture: AFL Photos
It is not possible for the Herald Sun to independently verify the claims or assertions made in the report and the paper does not suggest they are completely true and accurate, only that they have been made and are being investigated by various bodies.
The report asserted that the alleged treatment at the club of First Nations players involved “bullying and intimidation tactics … to be used to isolate First Nations players from their families and communities”.
These “aggressive intimidatory actions were undertaken by the most senior of the coaching and management hierarchy’’, wrote the review’s authors, led by project manager Phil Egan.
A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”
“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.
The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.
“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.
The review includes several pages of harrowing testimony from three partners of players and another player.
As was revealed last week, one testimony claimed Clarkson told a player he should terminate their unborn child.
The report asserts that “partners of players who have tabled the serious allegations were in the early stages of pregnancy, with two mothers losing their unborn child during these traumatic events’’.
The testimony of one partner said: “For three grown men (Clarkson, Fagan and Burt) to have walked into my house with no warning, and intimidate, trap and bully me full well knowing I’m carrying a child is just by no means acceptable.
“I was in complete agony after they left, I felt like my world had just come crashing down.
“If anything was to happen to this baby I would have no choice but to hold the Hawthorn Football Club and those three as individuals responsible and it is the last thing on earth I’d ever want to do.’’
A player told the authors: “My partner and daughter were then not allowed to fly over to Melbourne to come and see me until my daughter was four months old, as the club had told my partner and myself that they would be a distraction to my football career.
“When I was delisted, all my past trauma resurfaced, and I have been extremely unwell since. I am now deemed disabled, and I am on disability support pension, and I am also awaiting NDIS funding for a full time support worker to work with me 7 days a week.
“I have had multiple suicide attempts, multiple stays in the mental health unit at the hospital … the trauma that I deal with every day is because of the way the Club treated myself and my family.’’
Another testimony described a Clarkson visit to their home. “Alister (sic) Clarkson came over to visit us one night. I remember his comments as soon as he entered the house because I was so shocked. Clarko – “Oh (player’s name) this house is nice, you have the kids artwork up and it’s nice and clean. You should invite your teammates over for dinner and things. For all they know you’re living in a shack in the desert somewhere”.
‘’I was insulted straight away. It was clear that this Hawthorn official had a view on how Aboriginal people live and he wasn’t shy in voicing it.’’
Burt issued a statement to the Herald Sun on Tuesday evening.
“I wish to categorically deny the conduct attributed to me in the media. It is difficult to comment more fully in circumstances where I have never seen the report despite my lawyer asking the Hawthorn Football Club and the AFL for a copy,” he said.
“I am aggrieved Hawthorn saw fit to commission the report but did not give me the opportunity to respond to the allegations before the report was finalised and provided to the AFL.
“In my time at Hawthorn, the welfare of all players, including first nation players, was always my primary concern. A number of the first nation players lived in my home with my wife and children.
“It is my hope that the investigation to be conducted by the AFL is both fair and transparent, and that I will be given the opportunity to both give my account and test the accounts of those who have apparently made allegations against me.”
Evans - now Suns CEO - was contacted for comment, but did not respond before publication.
- Jun 27, 2020
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Hawthorn work environment, circa 2012:
You just fired that off without much thought. They would never be paid the same… if you bothered to read the all of what I wrote. I did say + or -, I did say game fees plus performance based.
Let’s take the example in isolation of Jackson and Henry with my quickly applied formula.
Henry - let’s just whack a figure of $200k as the base. We offer him - 15% because he hasn’t shown much in first 3 years. That’s $170k. I’ll pull a random figure from my backside for players who have played 0-50 games of $2k match fee. Let’s assume he plays 20 games next year. He could earn $210k. Then throw in some performance based criteria or finishes and he call it $250k for a big year with decent bonuses.
Jackson - same base figure of $200k. We apply the + 15%, so he’s on $230k. I’ll pull a figure of say $3k for guys that are playing games 51-100. He also plays 20 games. So already $290k. Also throw in some performance based stuff but for the sake of not creating arguments he also only gets $40k bonuses. He gets paid $330k.
It’s $80k more than Henry for similar years.
Personally I don’t see how it’s impossible at all, unless you just accept the norm of 3 year out players being offered $600k+.
Standardised pay with performance based incentives or criteria is actually the norm in many industries. Far from ‘impossible’
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #419
Systems like that end up hurting the little guy when he would be happy to keep his job on a minimum contract but the club has to pay the higher amount if they want to retain him - so he is fired.
There's more value to find in lowing the minimum spend on the salary cap with suitable base contract securities for players. $4,400,000 total spent on salary cap and $10,000,000 to lure opposition players.
But you just proved my point. Jackson has a market value of $800k in his 4th year but is constrained to earning $330k.
Dozens of others in a similar situation.
Connor Rozee and Bailey smith was pick 5 & 7 in 2018 and chayce Jones was pick 9z
Jones earns $200k or so in year 4 playing SANFL while Rozee wins an AA earning just $330k in the same year?
It’s just not enough difference for a vast chasm in relative performance.
Players who excel early in the careers would be subsidising the wages of a heap of potato’s across the league in every club.
Yeah I’m saying change the system. Not all at once, but scale it back somehow.
So, you’ve missed my point.
Jackson is purely on a ‘market’ rate of $800k because we’re stupid enough to reach and pay that.
If there were some parameters in place, clubs could manage their salaries much better.
My figures were also made up and random.
If a 4th year Jackson could earn say the top figure and that’s a hypothetical $600k then so be it.
The fact a club can just launch and outrageous bid of say $1.2M a year isn’t healthy moving forwards and is already proving to create issues of salary dump plays etc.
All I’m saying is put some parameters in place.
You don’t need to take my actual figures as gospel and argue them back at me. I find that hilarious.
Basically, should there be some sort of set figures, tiers, bonuses in place?
Or are we all happy that some kid can be offered $1m like Tim Boyd based on nothing other than ‘gee… he looks a likely type’
Wouldn't mind seeing something like the payment bands in play like AFLW.
Tier 1 | 1-5 Players
Tier 2 | 4-10 Players
Tier 3 | 5-15 Players
Tier 4 | 5-15 Players
Tier 5 | 2-10 Players
^^^ That's just purely made up, with no thought, wouldn't know what the values would be. Plus then set amounts for match payments/tier, and additional bonuses for AA, brownlow, finals etc.
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THIS.
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