Oppo Camp Non Geelong football (AFL) discussion 2023, part I

[CatToTheFuture]

If Hardwick’s Tigers had to deal with the 2009 St Kilda team or the 2011 Collingwood team he would have 1 premiership if he was lucky.

It is the standard of opposition that we beat (2007 notwithstanding) that made our 3 premierships from 2007-2011 so impressive. More impressive than hawthorns 3peat, brisbanes 3-peat or Richmond’s 3 flags.

The 2007 prelim was a pretty high standard

 

[CatToTheFuture]

If Hardwick’s Tigers had to deal with the 2009 St Kilda team or the 2011 Collingwood team he would have 1 premiership if he was lucky.

It is the standard of opposition that we beat (2007 notwithstanding) that made our 3 premierships from 2007-2011 so impressive. More impressive than hawthorns 3peat, brisbanes 3-peat or Richmond’s 3 flags.

One other thing I think is that what made them a dynasty team was getting Tom Lynch. Massive change to their f50 that had knock on effects across the ground.

I would argue that if they came up against say 2010 saints or a 2007 Geelong in 2017 then Lynch would potentially choose somewhere else. They then don't win in 2019 or 2020 without him I think.

 

[Partridge]

If Hardwick’s Tigers had to deal with the 2009 St Kilda team or the 2011 Collingwood team he would have 1 premiership if he was lucky.

It is the standard of opposition that we beat (2007 notwithstanding) that made our 3 premierships from 2007-2011 so impressive. More impressive than hawthorns 3peat, brisbanes 3-peat or Richmond’s 3 flags.

There's absolutely no way to know that. If it's so easy to win three flags in four years how come no one else did it?

Geelong's flags aren't worth any more either. They're all worth the same.

 

[Cataholic]

There's absolutely no way to know that. If it's so easy to win three flags in four years how come no one else did it?

Geelong's flags aren't worth any more either. They're all worth the same.

As much as I hate to admit it, I rate the 3peats a little higher, because it demonstrated a resilience of mind and body that very few can replicate.

Even our 2007 - 11 side couldn't.

 

[catsfootyfan89]

Geelong's flags aren't worth any more either. They're all worth the same.

This just isn't logical, though. Flags are certainly worth the same for the clubs that win them. Every club cherishes every single flag that it wins, but in the cold light of day, different flags are definitely different, depending on who won them and who they were playing.

For example, the fact that the Bulldogs found a way to beat Sydney in 2016 differs in its impressiveness from say, Richmond beating GWS.

Likewise, the fact that Hawthorn found a way to beat us in 2008 is, frankly ridiculous. It would have to be one of their most incredible flags as they had no right winning it, but found a way to.

All flags are different, for the same reason that it'd be different for a one-legged man to climb Mt Everest compared to a two-legged person like me.

 

[Partridge]

As much as I hate to admit it, I rate the 3peats a little higher, because it demonstrated a resilience of mind and body that very few can replicate.

Even our 2007 - 11 side couldn't.

If you can find me any kind of "weak" or "poor" team that won three flags in a short space of time (that's Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond, even going back to Carlton and Hawthorn in the late '70s and the '80s) I'd love to see it. They're just too tough to win.

Still think the main gripe against Richmond is that a club that everyone enjoyed beating up on for decades (especially us) dared to fight back and start winning things themselves. Not only did they beat us in the finals every time they won the flag, twice they came from behind at half time to do it (in eerily similar games too). You don't do that with no talent or relying on luck.

To your question, I guess the threepeat versus 3 in 4 or 3 is 5 is slightly better, but it's really just maximising the return when you're on top. All of those teams had a peak of around 4 years (we stretched it to 5 in 2011). I'd say you have to win 2 flags at least, which is why Essendon in 1999-2001 really slipped. They were good enough to win at least 2 but only won 1.

 

[Partridge]

This just isn't logical, though. Flags are certainly worth the same for the clubs that win them. Every club cherishes every single flag that it wins, but in the cold light of day, different flags are definitely different, depending on who won them and who they were playing.

For example, the fact that the Bulldogs found a way to beat Sydney in 2016 differs in its impressiveness from say, Richmond beating GWS.

Likewise, the fact that Hawthorn found a way to beat us in 2008 is, frankly ridiculous. It would have to be one of their most incredible flags as they had no right winning it, but found a way to.

All flags are different, for the same reason that it'd be different for a one-legged man to climb Mt Everest compared to a two-legged person like me.

That's actually one of my favourite ones. They most certainly weren't close to the top 4 during the year, but caught fire and were the best team of the finals.

Four wins in four weeks, in Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, and Melbourne. Hard to get more impressive than that (similar to Hawthorn the year before). Sydney (and unsurprisingly bitter opposition) fans have engaged in a mass conspiracy ever since instead of admitting that they were just outplayed.

 

[catsfootyfan89]

That's actually one of my favourite ones. They most certainly weren't close to the top 4 during the year, but caught fire and were the best team of the finals.

Four wins in four weeks, in Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, and Melbourne. Hard to get more impressive than that (similar to Hawthorn the year before). Sydney (and unsurprisingly bitter opposition) fans have engaged in a mass conspiracy ever since instead of admitting that they were just outplayed.

Absolutely. I remember watching that one at a pub in Adelaide and thinking to myself, "This is lightning in a bottle stuff". It was like watching a lightweight beating up on Mike Tyson and nobody could come up with a reason for why it was happening.

 

[goyoucatters]

I can’t knock his record. Mine is a prediction that he won’t be capable to reproduce his success elsewhere.

I think this is particularly pertinent now, given his game plan was eventually overcome by the best contenders to their throne*. I'm not sure he has too many tricks up his sleeve to change it up again. And certainly no 'Dusty' figure to frank their finals performances with incessant match-defining heroics.

* Oh, and Uncy Steve's blatant manipulation of the rules to destroy them, of course.

 

[cats_09]

THE AFL has handed Port Adelaide a $100,000 fine for breaching the League's concussion management guidelines after a head clash between Power players Aliir Aliir

21

Aliir Aliir

Age

31

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.2

4star

K

9.3

4star

HB

5.9

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.9

4star

MG

240.9

4star

D

11.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

D

13.0

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

158.4

3star

and Lachie Jones.

Jones was subbed out with a migraine after the incident during the Showdown clash with Adelaide but Aliir was cleared to return to the field without undergoing a SCAT5 concussion test.

Port Adelaide stood by the management of both players immediately after the game but both Jones and Aliir were placed in concussion protocols on Monday, with the club accepting it had made an error of judgement on match day.

$50,000 of the fine will be included in Port Adelaide's football department soft cap, with the remainder to sit outside the cap unless the club commits a similar breach of concussion protocols before the end of the AFL and AFLW seasons in 2024.

Rest of article - Power cops huge fine over concussion protocols error

 

[goyoucatters]

THE AFL has handed Port Adelaide a $100,000 fine for breaching the League's concussion management guidelines after a head clash between Power players Aliir Aliir and Lachie Jones.

Jones was subbed out with a migraine after the incident during the Showdown clash with Adelaide but Aliir was cleared to return to the field without undergoing a SCAT5 concussion test.

Port Adelaide stood by the management of both players immediately after the game but both Jones and Aliir were placed in concussion protocols on Monday, with the club accepting it had made an error of judgement on match day.

$50,000 of the fine will be included in Port Adelaide's football department soft cap, with the remainder to sit outside the cap unless the club commits a similar breach of concussion protocols before the end of the AFL and AFLW seasons in 2024.

Rest of article - Power cops huge fine over concussion protocols error

Pretty limp wet lettuce from the AFL yet again.

All the rhetoric about the imperative to 'protect players' and the commitment to 'best practice' just sounds empty when you basically wave through this level of either gross ineptitude around player welfare or staggering indifference to it.

#neverchangeafl

 

[BotsMaster]

Bulldogs or Tiges tonight?

 

[catempire]

Bulldogs or Tiges tonight?

Dawgs. Tigers no good.

 

[Partridge]

Bulldogs or Tiges tonight?

Doggies. About the only time their forward line works is against Richmond.

 

[cats_09]

Bulldogs tonight, especially as Richmond fans are already conceding they'll lose after bitching about an imaginary rule change being designed & implemented just in time for them to play on Friday night...

 

[And_ROOS]

I'm pretty sure we cop the worst with new rules etc anyway. Hawkins suspension for a jumper punch. I am also pretty sure Bartel in 09 preseason was the first player pinged with the new "deliberate rushed behinds" rule. Richmond crying poor when they give away a shit load of dumb 50m penalties for things that were established rules doesn't make them guinea pigs...

 

[And_ROOS]

To this day the only thing that annoyed me about Ablett going up there was the story that was fed to everyone. Just be honest.

"...It's a once in a lifetime opportunity, a chance to set my family up for life, and I can't knock it back...".

No one would have had the slightest issue with that because we'd all do the same.

Didn't Cotton On come in late as well with a lot of cash that could have swayed Ablett Jnr, like an ambassador role and the AFL said no you can't do that.

If he had said its a lot of money and I can build a new club, no one would have faulted him. But a lot of the Ablett Jnr stuff felt sketchy. I went to a The Footy Show taping the week before the 2010 Qualifying Final and Sam Newman was answering questions after the show went off air. He said Hutchy had told him the Ablett Jnr deal was done, and that we should enjoy Ablett Jnr at Geelong the next few weeks before he leaves.
The next day, AFL media was still running the "will he/won't he" stories despite them all knowing it was a done deal.
Anyway, whats done is done, and I feel the karma is the Suns end up sending us players and things like pick 7 to compensate for taking Ablett Jnr and us getting **** all for him in comparison to what other clubs have gotten for players since then.

Hardwick may take them to the finals but I can’t see that list winning a flag anytime soon

That list has some top top high end talent that just needs competent coaching. But the club is run so badly that even if they got peak Thompson/Sheedy/Clarko/Scott in to run the joint, the higher ups will continue to make horrendous calls that affect the club, the playing list, recruitment, etc.

But the talent is absolutely there.

 

[Strange Cat]

Didn't Cotton On come in late as well with a lot of cash that could have swayed Ablett Jnr, like an ambassador role and the AFL said no you can't do that.

If he had said its a lot of money and I can build a new club, no one would have faulted him. But a lot of the Ablett Jnr stuff felt sketchy. I went to a The Footy Show taping the week before the 2010 Qualifying Final and Sam Newman was answering questions after the show went off air. He said Hutchy had told him the Ablett Jnr deal was done, and that we should enjoy Ablett Jnr at Geelong the next few weeks before he leaves.
The next day, AFL media was still running the "will he/won't he" stories despite them all knowing it was a done deal.
Anyway, whats done is done, and I feel the karma is the Suns end up sending us players and things like pick 7 to compensate for taking Ablett Jnr and us getting * all for him in comparison to what other clubs have gotten for players since then.


That list has some top top high end talent that just needs competent coaching. But the club is run so badly that even if they got peak Thompson/Sheedy/Clarko/Scott in to run the joint, the higher ups will continue to make horrendous calls that affect the club, the playing list, recruitment, etc.

But the talent is absolutely there.

To play finals I agree …to win a flag I seriously disagree

 

[Hinkley29]

There's absolutely no way to know that. If it's so easy to win three flags in four years how come no one else did it?

Geelong's flags aren't worth any more either. They're all worth the same.

Luck plays a massive part and you know it. Don’t be argumentative just for the sake of it.

In their 3 peat Hawthorn played a Freo team that choked away the flag, a decent Sydney team and an average WC team. They had the benefit of having an interstate opponent in every game. This is the dream draw for GF opponents.

Brisbanes 3 peat opponents were a very good Essendon team that was running out of gas and 2 bog average Collingwood teams that played over their heads. And Brisbane managed to lose a final in their last premiership. Again, a very nice group teams to draw in their run.

Richmond played an Adelaide team that shat the bed, a GwS team that might have been in the bottom 3 Gf teams of the last 40 years and a Geelong team that finished 4th and lost in the first week of the finals. Not exactly a murderers row of teams there.

To say that all premierships are created equal is nonsense.

From a degree of difficulty perspective, Geelongs 2007 win was infinitely easier than 2009 and 2011 becaus Eid the standard of opposition in those seasons.

 

[And_ROOS]

To play finals I agree …to win a flag I seriously disagree

Baby steps for GC though, GWS are well ahead of them and have managed 1 GF appearance. With the advantages those clubs have been given, not making finals so far is the absolute worst for GC.

 

[Partridge]

I'm pretty sure we cop the worst with new rules etc anyway. Hawkins suspension for a jumper punch. I am also pretty sure Bartel in 09 preseason was the first player pinged with the new "deliberate rushed behinds" rule. Richmond crying poor when they give away a s**t load of dumb 50m penalties for things that were established rules doesn't make them guinea pigs...

When exactly was that? The last time he punched someone that I can remember was 2019 and he was unbelievably lucky to only get one week for that.

 

[00VicWard001]

When exactly was that? The last time he punched someone that I can remember was 2019 and he was unbelievably lucky to only get one week for that.

Hawkins definitely f*cked up our chances in the WCE final in 2019.

I think he's alluding to the Phil Davis hit or the umpire swat (both against GWS from memory).

Both seemed like not much, as a bit later that season, other players only got fines for similar actions.

 

[GeelongFTW]

If you can find me any kind of "weak" or "poor" team that won three flags in a short space of time (that's Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond, even going back to Carlton and Hawthorn in the late '70s and the '80s) I'd love to see it. They're just too tough to win.

Still think the main gripe against Richmond is that a club that everyone enjoyed beating up on for decades (especially us) dared to fight back and start winning things themselves. Not only did they beat us in the finals every time they won the flag, twice they came from behind at half time to do it (in eerily similar games too). You don't do that with no talent or relying on luck.

To your question, I guess the threepeat versus 3 in 4 or 3 is 5 is slightly better, but it's really just maximising the return when you're on top. All of those teams had a peak of around 4 years (we stretched it to 5 in 2011). I'd say you have to win 2 flags at least, which is why Essendon in 1999-2001 really slipped. They were good enough to win at least 2 but only won 1.

I think youre slightly missing the point. Richmond's grand final opponents were the weakest between lions/cats/hawks 3 flag teams. This is statistically verifiable (and by basic common sense). You can only beat who you come up against but quality of the opponents is something to consider when comparing sides

 

[Turbocat]

Bulldogs tonight, especially as Richmond fans are already conceding they'll lose after bitching about an imaginary rule change being designed & implemented just in time for them to play on Friday night...

So just a reminder.... there are rules that haven't changed and we aways adjudicate based on said rules but this week we are really, really going to adjudicate the rules because we feel that due to some reason that has nothing to do with our umpires , that some clubs have been circumventing the rules and somehow we have missed calling it... although we are always adjudicate based on the rules ..and nothing has changed.

 

[David the Cat]

View attachment 1762979

Looking forward to see Tsatas in action. I'm told this kid can play...