Non Lions Discussion 2019

M Malice

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As a neutral observer that umpiring was atrocious, so many incorrect disposals and HTB missed, woeful.

In saying that our game would be the most difficult on the planet to umpire, nearly every decision is open to interpretation, can't see a way to fix it.
 
I thought that the umpiring overall favoured Collingwood but Essendon got a couple of critical calls too. The free kick paid to Baguley which led to a goal is the sort of action ignored almost every other time.

Good fun game though. Loved seeing a key forward and key back flying for marks together. Loved the dash off half back. Loved the pressure and tackling. Just a fun contest.
 
Shiel is a liability with his ball use. Almost better not having him get it.

Shiels disposal was the difference IMO. He was head to head with Pendles, and Shiel went at 58%. 17 of his 34 disposals didn't pan out. That's a pretty big number of s**t disposals in one game. Pendles on the other hand went at 70%, and while numbers don't mean much, watching the game you could easily see the difference was stark.
 

CarterS

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Thought they were still booing umpires not Pendles himself. The booing was almost continuous from final siren. Fox Footy making a big deal out of it is a bit much. Brown only voice of reason.

Fox Footy presenter saying shouldn't be allowed to boo at the footy at all is ridiculous
 
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marooned

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The booing doesn’t suit their narrative.Poor Gazza he is a champ you can’t boo him.The umpires disgraceful you can’t boo them.If you can’t express how you feel by booing you can’t come to the game Hocking.What a nanny state we have become.
 
Two top 8 eight sides going hard at it and a close game was good footy to watch. Makes our last two weeks 1% easier to handle but still just terrible.

Just shows that we are still a long long way off making a significant jump up the ladder. Really need Berry and 1 or 2 others to play better than expected to make the difference.
 
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The booing doesn’t suit their narrative.Poor Gazza he is a champ you can’t boo him.The umpires disgraceful you can’t boo them.If you can’t express how you feel by booing you can’t come to the game Hocking.What a nanny state we have become.

Nanny state arguments might be warranted in the supremely unlikely event that there is some sort of punitive crackdown on booing. Until that day... c’mon.
 

Albi_Mangler

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As a neutral observer that umpiring was atrocious, so many incorrect disposals and HTB missed, woeful.

In saying that our game would be the most difficult on the planet to umpire, nearly every decision is open to interpretation, can't see a way to fix it.

Less umpires on the field would be a good start.
 

patfullfankezz

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Booing has it's place. In fact, some players get off on it (pretty sure our own Luke Hodge is one of them, I swear he looked quite pleased with himself when I told him that as a Hawk I loathed and detested him). Things like the first game after a player has betrayed a club (note there is a difference between being traded and actually betraying your club), when the umpire really balls things up, etc. But sustained attacks by fans against players for arbitrary reasons is not on.
 

Mr Ripper

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Umpires are in an invidious position, and it's purely due to whims of their masters at HQ. A quarter of a century of over-complicating of rules and increasing of grey areas in interpretation has left all stakeholders non-plussed.

the_simpsons_simplify_man_zpsffebf2b6.png
 

abcde12345

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As a neutral observer that umpiring was atrocious, so many incorrect disposals and HTB missed, woeful.

In saying that our game would be the most difficult on the planet to umpire, nearly every decision is open to interpretation, can't see a way to fix it.

I think the only way to fix it is to simplify the rules and make them less open to interpretation. Otherwise I think it is pretty much impossible to get a set of 40 or so different people to have the exact same interpretation every time when the rules are as grey as they are.
 

AFLQLD

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The booing at the end of that game annoyed me, a neutral with a dislike of both clubs. It annoyed me because for me, Pendlebury was clearly the best player on the ground. The people who booed mustn’t watch much footy or can’t put their bias aside even after the game is over, because the travesty would have been Pendlebury not getting the medal. I would have booed that!

The umpiring? Yeah, pretty rubbish, but the type of rubbish we see most weeks.
 
Oct 13, 2015
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Nanny state arguments might be warranted in the supremely unlikely event that there is some sort of punitive crackdown on booing. Until that day... c’mon.

Not a big fan of booing but I do find the outcry this time interesting. Last time there was a sustained booing issue some in the media and the AFL weren't exactly quick to condemn it.

I'd love to think that those people have learnt and grown from that experience but I'm sceptical.
 
When I sit down for a game of Monopoly the first thing I do is have a discussion about which set of rules/house rules we are going to use (as opposed to debating whether your 4:4 when you are in jail moves you to just visiting with a roll again vs moving you to the hotel on Malborough St when there is blood on the line).

Maybe before each game the umpires, captains and coaches can sit down with a checklist of options ... if both teams agree on an option then they use that one for the game, if they cannot agree then you use the rules as written ... that way everyone knows going in what the interpretations will be for example ...

- incorrect disposal (is it necessary to kick or handball, what constitutes a handball, whether you can just 'push' the ball with an open hand rather than a fist if you have not actually taken possession)
- whether you taking the ball over the boundary when you had time to dispose of it (and would have if a team mate had been present) constitutes deliberate out of bounds (you know the ones where the commentators laugh and say how well he disguised it)
- how many milliseconds counts as prior opportunity (after all they do seem to handball off pretty quick these days)
- whether a tackle on someone who has the ball when you start the motion but who 'drops' it before you complete the motion should count against the tackler
- whether you want the same rules for blocking/interfering/holding etc to apply to forwards as you do for midfielders
- how far a forward can walk off line before it is automatically called play on
- whether travelling is a function of steps or metres or what feels right at the time
- whether a player who signals a kick for goal (and takes the appropriate time for it) should be allowed to change his mind and pass to another player
- whether 'advantage' can be called after every other player in the area has stopped as per the whistle and one player has ignored the whistle to run past the obedient ones

Sure each game will be umpired differently but that is no different to what we already have but including the pre-agreed terms of engagement in the footy record / match review etc would allow the umpires, the players, and most importantly the fans to know what the rules will be for that game.

Or, in an alternate bizzaro world, we could have a set of specific, literal, enforceable rules that everyone has to play be every week ... nah that's crazy talk.
 

briztoon

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The booing at the end of that game annoyed me, a neutral with a dislike of both clubs. It annoyed me because for me, Pendlebury was clearly the best player on the ground. The people who booed mustn’t watch much footy or can’t put their bias aside even after the game is over, because the travesty would have been Pendlebury not getting the medal. I would have booed that!

The umpiring? Yeah, pretty rubbish, but the type of rubbish we see most weeks.
As a neutral observer of the second half only, I thought there was an obvious Pies bias in the umpiring (hey I felt the same in the first half of the Lions Pies game , {second half I was just angry}). I felt the booing was more aimed at the umpires and Collingwood in general, and no so much aimed at Pendlebury.
 
May 5, 2013
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When I sit down for a game of Monopoly the first thing I do is have a discussion about which set of rules/house rules we are going to use (as opposed to debating whether your 4:4 when you are in jail moves you to just visiting with a roll again vs moving you to the hotel on Malborough St when there is blood on the line).

Maybe before each game the umpires, captains and coaches can sit down with a checklist of options ... if both teams agree on an option then they use that one for the game, if they cannot agree then you use the rules as written ... that way everyone knows going in what the interpretations will be for example ...

- incorrect disposal (is it necessary to kick or handball, what constitutes a handball, whether you can just 'push' the ball with an open hand rather than a fist if you have not actually taken possession)
- whether you taking the ball over the boundary when you had time to dispose of it (and would have if a team mate had been present) constitutes deliberate out of bounds (you know the ones where the commentators laugh and say how well he disguised it)
- how many milliseconds counts as prior opportunity (after all they do seem to handball off pretty quick these days)
- whether a tackle on someone who has the ball when you start the motion but who 'drops' it before you complete the motion should count against the tackler
- whether you want the same rules for blocking/interfering/holding etc to apply to forwards as you do for midfielders
- how far a forward can walk off line before it is automatically called play on
- whether travelling is a function of steps or metres or what feels right at the time
- whether a player who signals a kick for goal (and takes the appropriate time for it) should be allowed to change his mind and pass to another player
- whether 'advantage' can be called after every other player in the area has stopped as per the whistle and one player has ignored the whistle to run past the obedient ones

Sure each game will be umpired differently but that is no different to what we already have but including the pre-agreed terms of engagement in the footy record / match review etc would allow the umpires, the players, and most importantly the fans to know what the rules will be for that game.

Or, in an alternate bizzaro world, we could have a set of specific, literal, enforceable rules that everyone has to play be every week ... nah that's crazy talk.
Pretty frustrating to watch sometimes.
I thought the umps lost control of the game by letting so many infringements go without a free against.
Today and last night there where examples of the umpires clearly ignoring the rules. Not an interpretation .
Throwing the ball with ONE hand, HELLO ,and last night kicking in danger.
Some of these infringements are obvious to the eye and the ump has sometimes been right there to witness this.
Today Cox while having his back to the incoming ball holds an Essendon defender off while a Collinwood player marks.
No free.

a player is smacked around the head , that should be a free, we aren't talking about a arm slipping down either .
Tippa today should of been awarded one late in the 4th , blatantly obvious smack on the head.
Coaches need to be asking why these rules are being ignored by the umps .
But for the love of footy they have to pull up the obvious infringements for mind otherwise its simply not Aussie rules just a free for all.

Funny how teams like Collingwood seem to get the rub.
 

Keays2myBeamas

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Rules are important to clarify - but it shouldn't be so hard as some are making out to simplify some things. Free kicks are punishments or rewards, depending on which end you're on, so like anything, it's all about incentives.

If the "line" is drawn in the wrong place, you'll see one of two very obvious behaviours start to manifest:


- If the line is too harsh: there'll be an epidemic of players deliberately trying to "draw" the free kick (diving/ducking/flopping/shrugging/acting) - playing for a free kick becomes a better option than continuing to actually go for the ball.
OR
- If the line is too lenient: there will be an epidemic of infringements with players getting away with it (eg: constant holding off the ball, throwing, dropping etc) - infringing becomes a better option than playing by the rules.


By getting the balance right, it saves having to endlessly add clauses to each rule.

For example, with high tackles:

A couple of years ago you would often see players duck their head, shrug their shoulders, or raise one arm in attempt to "draw" a high tackle free kick. It became so wide spread that the league decided to intervene. That's a clear indication the incentives are out of whack - that the line is drawn in the wrong place.
It had become "worth it" for a player to risk getting hit high, because the players evaluated that the benefit of getting the free kick, outweighed the cost of getting hit harshly in the head (and the humiliation of being labeled a ducker). The intervention should have been simple: move the line for what is interpreted as a high tackle, so that if you enter a tackle with the goal of receiving a high tackle free kick - you'll actually have to put up with a significant knock to the head - the natural remedy for anyone who wishes to "play" for a free kick.
Instead the league complicated the rule by adding clauses. This has complicated the interpretation: did he duck, did he shrug, was he just down to pick up the ball or did he deliberately stay down a bit longer? There's now a page of criteria that need to be satisfied, the interpretation is difficult. It should be easy - did he get smacked in the head or neck, to the point where he wouldn't have done that deliberately to himself?

This can be applied to pretty much any rule that looks to have a grey area. If players at the front of marking contests are throwing themselves forward, putting mustard on it, looking for a push in the back, you're probably paying too many push in the backs. If players aren't taking contested marks anymore, maybe you're too lenient with holding in the marking contest, or with chopping the arms. If players keep opting to take on the tackle, and often drop the ball creating an overly congested rolling maul, maybe you're too lenient on dropping the ball. If players are being slightly held after they get rid of it, and they throw their arms in the air and fall down onto the ground, "acting", then maybe you're paying too many holding the man free kicks.

Incentives would also work for skills, i.e. goal kicking accuracy, but that's another post...
 
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