Non-Lions discussion 2021

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KissKiss

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 26, 2012
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The only problem for North is that they are starting to have a lot of midfield depth. Top couple of picks last year and then JHF this year. Might start to wonder if they are all going to get enough mid minutes to develop.

Really do look back and think they should have gone for a tall last year at the draft
 

Full Wingspan

Premiership Player
Oct 3, 2007
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Victoria
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Vaccine mandates are absolutely necessary. I work in health care and in my opinion lots of people are lazy asses who rarely do the bare minimum for their own health. If thereis a choice between doing absolutely nothing or taking an action, lots of people choose doing nothing just out of pure laziness. A lot of children were missing their vaccinations because parents were too lazy to take their kids to a doctor. No jab no pay policy has helped lift childhood vaccination rates up. I doubt we would reach more than 70 percent vax rate if we didn't make it a massive pain in the arse for the unvaccinated. Anecdotally international flying is what is motivating my age group peers.
I will preface my comment by saying I am vaccinated, however mandating medical treatment is an abhorrent concept and poses many difficulties from a human rights perspective. Medical intervention and things going horribly wrong is not a far fetched concept. My father was a victim of the defective thalidomide morning sickness pill that his mother took while pregnant. Many children were born without any limbs in the 50s and 60s as a result of this drug. He was lucky in the sense that he was only born without a left hand.

While I acknowledge your point regarding the practical difficulties in getting populations vaccinated (for what may be viewed as the greater good), under no circumstances are mandatory vaccinations justifiable or ethical in circumstances where the vaccine in question has only obtained provisional approval. Accordingly, all covid-19 vaccines available in Australia are currently in the clinical trial phase as the relevant authorities assess their safety and efficacy (among other things).

I urge anyone to read the following article published by the ABC last month which succinctly explores the human rights law issues associated with vaccine mandates in Victoria: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/human-rights-and-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations/13577278.

Essentially, we have an international human rights framework (for which Australia is a signatory to), which distinguishes between non-derogable and derogable human rights. To quote the abovementioned article:

Article 4(2) of the ICCPR states that certain ICCPR rights are non-derogable, even in a time of public emergency which threatens the life of the nation — that is, the rights cannot be limited under any circumstances. Non-derogable rights include the right not to be subjected to medical experimentation (contained in article 7). In other words, there are no countervailing rights or considerations which would make it legitimate to force someone to undergo medical experimentation or treatment without their consent.
A vaccine that is mandated on a population whilst it is in the clinical trial phase (or governments coerce its administration by, for example, limiting the freedoms of unvaccinated citizens to participate freely in society such that it would offend the notion of "informed consent'), ostensibly infringes on this non-derogable right of freedom from medical experimentation.

Whilst that may sound like an exaggeration, I can assure it is not. It is a matter of fact that has been considered by Deputy President Dean of the Fair Work Commission in a recent dissenting judgment handed down in an unfair dismissal matter involving an aged care employee refusing to have her flu shot. Please refer to the below extract:

Consent is required for participation in clinical trials

[114] Consent is required for all participation in a clinical trial. Consent is necessary because people have a fundamental right to bodily integrity, that being autonomy and self-determination over their own body without unconsented physical intrusion. Voluntary consent for any medical treatment has been a fundamental part of the laws of Australia and internationally for decades.
It is legally, ethically and morally wrong to coerce a person to participate in a clinical trial.

[115] Coercion is not consent. Coercion is the practice of persuading someone to do something using force or threats. Some have suggested that there is no coercion in threatening a person with dismissal and withdrawing their ability to participate in society if that person does not have the COVID vaccine. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

[116] All COVID vaccines in Australia are only provisionally approved, and as such remain part of a clinical trial 21. This is not part of a conspiracy theory. It is a fact easily verifiable from the website of the TGA, Australia’s regulatory authority responsible for assessing and registering/approving all COVID vaccines before they can be used in Australia.
The full judgment can be accessed here: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/decisionssigned/html/2021fwcfb6015.htm.

It is truly shocking that so many are willing to accept, or even worse, endorse that covid-19 vaccines (in their current form) should be mandated on populations. This is especially so given the fairly recent history of the atrocities of WWII for which many of these human rights protections arose from.

To re-iterate, the issues I am raising go beyond one's views of the perceived or actual risks of the covid-19 vaccines. It's the systemic protections that we are to supposedly have in place to safeguard human rights abuses, even in times of national emergency or crisis. In short, the systems are meant to standup to the pressures that we face today, and in the first real test since WWII, they are failing.

The willingness of governments to bypass this human rights framework by taking the easy, shortcut option to achieving vaccination rates is abhorrent.

There are further questions and difficulties associated with the lawfulness of vaccine mandates (particularly in the context of workplaces) even once a vaccine has been fully approved. We can cross that bridge when (if) we get there.

The State of Debate re Vaccine Mandates

Unfortunately populations aren't capable of having a reasonable discussion about this issue. You either have those who blindly trust the healthcare system without any critical thought, often wanting to force what they (and many others) consider the "right" thing to do (i.e. getting jabbed) for the benefit of society. Then you have those who feel they have no other option but to overstate/exaggerate the risks posed by vaccines as they feel cornered by the possibility of vaccine mandates (or those who truly believe their own scientific views).

I can appreciate the difficulty this poses for lawmakers as it is in everyone's best interests to swiftly quash misinformation. However I do not believe this should be achieved by taking steps to censor or restrict critical thought and discussion on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. We have seen this with doctors and other medical professionals who are being threatened with de-registerstion and disciplinary action if they deviate or question the government's health advice on the vaccine.

In an environment where this freedom of thought and expression has been heavily suppressed (whether or not for good reason), this makes the prospect of mandates an even more concerning proposition in the absence of such safeguards.

When one considers the entities entrusted to manufacture these treatments aren't exactly good corporate citizens (or accountable to anyone), people are justifiably concerned. Pfizer settled a criminal action in 2009 and was fined a record-breaking USD $2.3 billion for suppressing adverse trial results and fraudulent marketing - not exactly good ethical form.

The Commonwealth Government have also provided indemnities in favour of the pharmaceutical companies in their supply agreements from any harm or loss suffered due to the vaccines. While these may be standard in such agreements, it doesn't inspire much confidence that pharma are backing their product. Combine that with desperate governments looking to a vaccine-led economic recovery, the absence of any robust regulatory authority and manufacturers with questionable ethical records, it is understandable people would begin to feel nervous at the suggestion of forcing (or coercing) such medical treatments.

I am not prepared to debate the efficacy or safety of the covid-19 vaccines. In short, I am prepared to trust the medical advice and do my bit for the community. However, my decision to get jab was expediated by the threat of not being able to participate freely in society. I don't think this is the right way to go about things.

TL;DR: I am not an anti-vaxxer, I am strongly opposed to vaccine mandates - as we all should be for very good reason.
 
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Cubs2Lions

Club Legend
Jan 12, 2021
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The only problem for North is that they are starting to have a lot of midfield depth. Top couple of picks last year and then JHF this year. Might start to wonder if they are all going to get enough mid minutes to develop.

Really do look back and think they should have gone for a tall last year at the draft
I think they will personally select one of the WA talls in Jacob Van Rooyen, Rhett Bazzo or Jack Williams with their Pick 20 (22-23) this year to help them fill that void if it is really urgent though, if still on the board. Although, they did get Jacob Edwards in the mid-season draft so maybe they might choose otherwise with their second selection of the night.
 

M Malice

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 31, 2015
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I will preface my comment by saying I am vaccinated, however mandating medical treatment is an abhorrent concept and poses many difficulties from a human rights perspective. Medical intervention and things going horribly wrong is not a far fetched concept. My father was a victim of the defective thalidomide morning sickness pill that his mother took while pregnant. Many children were born without any limbs in the 50s and 60s as a result of this drug. He was lucky in the sense that he was only born without a left hand.

While I acknowledge your point regarding the practical difficulties in getting populations vaccinated (for what may be viewed as the greater good), under no circumstances are mandatory vaccinations justifiable or ethical in circumstances where the vaccine in question has only obtained provisional approval. Accordingly, all covid-19 vaccines available in Australia are currently in the clinical trial phase as the relevant authorities assess their safety and efficacy (among other things).

I urge anyone to read the following article published by the ABC last month which succinctly explores the human rights law issues associated with vaccine mandates in Victoria: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/human-rights-and-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations/13577278.

Essentially, we have an international human rights framework (for which Australia is a signatory to), which distinguishes between non-derogable and derogable human rights. To quote the abovementioned article:



A vaccine that is mandated on a population whilst it is in the clinical trial phase (or governments coerce its administration by, for example, limiting the freedoms of unvaccinated citizens to participate freely in society such that it would offend the notion of "informed consent'), ostensibly infringes on this non-derogable right of freedom from medical experimentation.

Whilst that may sound like an exaggeration, I can assure it is not. It is a matter of fact that has been considered by Deputy President Dean of the Fair Work Commission in a recent dissenting judgment handed down in an unfair dismissal matter involving an aged care employee refusing to have her flu shot. Please refer to the below extract:



The full judgment can be accessed here: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/decisionssigned/html/2021fwcfb6015.htm.

It is truly shocking that so many are willing to accept, or even worse, endorse that covid-19 vaccines (in their current form) should be mandated on populations. This is especially so given the fairly recent history of the atrocities of WWII for which many of these human rights protections arose from.

To re-iterate, the issues I am raising go beyond one's views of the perceived or actual risks of the covid-19 vaccines. It's the systemic protections that we are to supposedly have in place to safeguard human rights abuses, even in times of national emergency or crisis. In short, the systems are meant to standup to the pressures that we face today, and in the first real test since WWII, they are failing.

The willingness of governments to bypass this human rights framework by taking the easy, shortcut option to achieving vaccination rates is abhorrent.

There are further questions and difficulties associated with the lawfulness of vaccine mandates (particularly in the context of workplaces) even once a vaccine has been fully approved. We can cross that bridge when (if) we get there.

The State of Debate re Vaccine Mandates

Unfortunately populations aren't capable of having a reasonable discussion about this issue. You either have those who blindly trust the healthcare system without any critical thought, often wanting to force what they (and many others) consider the "right" thing to do (i.e. getting jabbed) for the benefit of society. Then you have those who feel they have no other option but to overstate/exaggerate the risks posed by vaccines as they feel cornered by the possibility of vaccine mandates (or those who truly believe their own scientific views).

I can appreciate the difficulty this poses for lawmakers as it is in everyone's best interests to swiftly quash misinformation. However I do not believe this should be achieved by taking steps to censor or restrict critical thought and discussion on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. We have seen this with doctors and other medical professionals who are being threatened with de-registerstion and disciplinary action if they deviate or question the government's health advice on the vaccine.

In an environment where this freedom of thought and expression has been heavily suppressed (whether or not for good reason), this makes the prospect of mandates an even more concerning proposition in the absence of such safeguards.

When one considers the entities entrusted to manufacture these treatments aren't exactly good corporate citizens (or accountable to anyone), people are justifiably concerned. Pfizer settled a criminal action in 2009 and was fined a record-breaking USD $2.3 billion for suppressing adverse trial results and fraudulent marketing - not exactly good ethical form.

The Commonwealth Government have also provided indemnities in favour of the pharmaceutical companies in their supply agreements from any harm or loss suffered due to the vaccines. While these may be standard in such agreements, it doesn't inspire much confidence that pharma are backing their product. Combine that with desperate governments looking to a vaccine-led economic recovery, the absence of any robust regulatory authority and manufacturers with questionable ethical records, it is understandable people would begin to feel nervous at the suggestion of forcing (or coercing) such medical treatments.

I am not prepared to debate the efficacy or safety of the covid-19 vaccines. In short, I am prepared to trust the medical advice and do my bit for the community. However, my decision to get jab was expediated by the threat of not being able to participate freely in society. I don't think this is the right way to go about things.

TL;DR: I am not an anti-vaxxer, I am strongly opposed to vaccine mandates - as we all should be for very good reason.
Couldn't agree more....BTW I am vaccinated (AZ) as well. Just to give more detail on the Pfizer legal action >

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...gest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

WASHINGTON – American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together "Pfizer") have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products, the Justice Department announced today.

In addition, Pfizer has agreed to pay $1 billion to resolve allegations under the civil False Claims Act that the company illegally promoted four drugs – Bextra; Geodon, an anti-psychotic drug; Zyvox, an antibiotic; and Lyrica, an anti-epileptic drug – and caused false claims to be submitted to government health care programs for uses that were not medically accepted indications and therefore not covered by those programs. The civil settlement also resolves allegations that Pfizer paid kickbacks to health care providers to induce them to prescribe these, as well as other, drugs. The federal share of the civil settlement is $668,514,830 and the state Medicaid share of the civil settlement is $331,485,170. This is the largest civil fraud settlement in history against a pharmaceutical company.
_________________________________________________________
There have been multiple similar stories over the years >

https://www.medicalerroraustralia.com/medical-disasters/10-worst-drug-recalls-in-history/
 

briztoon

Wannabe Draft Nuffie
Nov 28, 2015
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I think they will personally select one of the WA talls in Jacob Van Rooyen, Rhett Bazzo or Jack Williams with their Pick 20 (22-23) this year to help them fill that void if it is really urgent though, if still on the board. Although, they did get Jacob Edwards in the mid-season draft so maybe they might choose otherwise with their second selection of the night.
Bit of talk today that they will select Bazzo at their second pick.

Edwards should be developed as a forward ruck.


If it’s a shorter draft again, with all indications it will be, there’s going to be some good value again in next year’s mid season draft. Again tall talent out of Victoria, and some midfield/flank options that never got a chance this year.
 

dlanod

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Sep 14, 2006
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I might be unclear but I had assumed they wanted to get him onto the rookie list as they could use it for salary cap relief? He may have been willing where other players weren't.

There's definitely a bit of personal bias because I think he's a very solid player but I can't imagine why they would want to get rid of him at this stage.
Nah, the plan wasn't to rookie him - it was because they needed to make three changes to their senior list. Greenwood was going to be redrafted in the National Draft.
 

BangyBangy

BangyBangyMightyLoins
Oct 16, 2013
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I will preface my comment by saying I am vaccinated, however mandating medical treatment is an abhorrent concept and poses many difficulties from a human rights perspective. Medical intervention and things going horribly wrong is not a far fetched concept. My father was a victim of the defective thalidomide morning sickness pill that his mother took while pregnant. Many children were born without any limbs in the 50s and 60s as a result of this drug. He was lucky in the sense that he was only born without a left hand.

While I acknowledge your point regarding the practical difficulties in getting populations vaccinated (for what may be viewed as the greater good), under no circumstances are mandatory vaccinations justifiable or ethical in circumstances where the vaccine in question has only obtained provisional approval. Accordingly, all covid-19 vaccines available in Australia are currently in the clinical trial phase as the relevant authorities assess their safety and efficacy (among other things).

I urge anyone to read the following article published by the ABC last month which succinctly explores the human rights law issues associated with vaccine mandates in Victoria: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/human-rights-and-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations/13577278.

Essentially, we have an international human rights framework (for which Australia is a signatory to), which distinguishes between non-derogable and derogable human rights. To quote the abovementioned article:



A vaccine that is mandated on a population whilst it is in the clinical trial phase (or governments coerce its administration by, for example, limiting the freedoms of unvaccinated citizens to participate freely in society such that it would offend the notion of "informed consent'), ostensibly infringes on this non-derogable right of freedom from medical experimentation.

Whilst that may sound like an exaggeration, I can assure it is not. It is a matter of fact that has been considered by Deputy President Dean of the Fair Work Commission in a recent dissenting judgment handed down in an unfair dismissal matter involving an aged care employee refusing to have her flu shot. Please refer to the below extract:



The full judgment can be accessed here: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/decisionssigned/html/2021fwcfb6015.htm.

It is truly shocking that so many are willing to accept, or even worse, endorse that covid-19 vaccines (in their current form) should be mandated on populations. This is especially so given the fairly recent history of the atrocities of WWII for which many of these human rights protections arose from.

To re-iterate, the issues I am raising go beyond one's views of the perceived or actual risks of the covid-19 vaccines. It's the systemic protections that we are to supposedly have in place to safeguard human rights abuses, even in times of national emergency or crisis. In short, the systems are meant to standup to the pressures that we face today, and in the first real test since WWII, they are failing.

The willingness of governments to bypass this human rights framework by taking the easy, shortcut option to achieving vaccination rates is abhorrent.

There are further questions and difficulties associated with the lawfulness of vaccine mandates (particularly in the context of workplaces) even once a vaccine has been fully approved. We can cross that bridge when (if) we get there.

The State of Debate re Vaccine Mandates

Unfortunately populations aren't capable of having a reasonable discussion about this issue. You either have those who blindly trust the healthcare system without any critical thought, often wanting to force what they (and many others) consider the "right" thing to do (i.e. getting jabbed) for the benefit of society. Then you have those who feel they have no other option but to overstate/exaggerate the risks posed by vaccines as they feel cornered by the possibility of vaccine mandates (or those who truly believe their own scientific views).

I can appreciate the difficulty this poses for lawmakers as it is in everyone's best interests to swiftly quash misinformation. However I do not believe this should be achieved by taking steps to censor or restrict critical thought and discussion on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. We have seen this with doctors and other medical professionals who are being threatened with de-registerstion and disciplinary action if they deviate or question the government's health advice on the vaccine.

In an environment where this freedom of thought and expression has been heavily suppressed (whether or not for good reason), this makes the prospect of mandates an even more concerning proposition in the absence of such safeguards.

When one considers the entities entrusted to manufacture these treatments aren't exactly good corporate citizens (or accountable to anyone), people are justifiably concerned. Pfizer settled a criminal action in 2009 and was fined a record-breaking USD $2.3 billion for suppressing adverse trial results and fraudulent marketing - not exactly good ethical form.

The Commonwealth Government have also provided indemnities in favour of the pharmaceutical companies in their supply agreements from any harm or loss suffered due to the vaccines. While these may be standard in such agreements, it doesn't inspire much confidence that pharma are backing their product. Combine that with desperate governments looking to a vaccine-led economic recovery, the absence of any robust regulatory authority and manufacturers with questionable ethical records, it is understandable people would begin to feel nervous at the suggestion of forcing (or coercing) such medical treatments.

I am not prepared to debate the efficacy or safety of the covid-19 vaccines. In short, I am prepared to trust the medical advice and do my bit for the community. However, my decision to get jab was expediated by the threat of not being able to participate freely in society. I don't think this is the right way to go about things.

TL;DR: I am not an anti-vaxxer, I am strongly opposed to vaccine mandates - as we all should be for very good reason.
But, we're not forcing you to be vaccinated. There's no mandatory vaccinations.

Except you pretty much can't work or make a living in Victoria now unless you are vaccinated. But yeah, we're not forcing you to.....

This is going to take up a fair bit of the court system over the next year or so. The unfair dismissal suits have already started.

Watch the state government wash it's hands of this & let businesses get sued by their terminated employees for following state government mandates.

Wonder if it's just easier & simpler for the AFL & Carlton to pay Jones out.
 

Leuy LongerCombo

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I think they will personally select one of the WA talls in Jacob Van Rooyen, Rhett Bazzo or Jack Williams with their Pick 20 (22-23) this year to help them fill that void if it is really urgent though, if still on the board. Although, they did get Jacob Edwards in the mid-season draft so maybe they might choose otherwise with their second selection of the night.
They also added Callum Coleman Jones in the trade period.

I like the look of their rebuild, they’ll have a strong midfield adding JFH to Uniacke, Simpkin, Powell with Larkey, Zuhaar, Thomas and Stephenson up forward.
With some other decent options Goldy, Cunningham, Anderson, McKay and Hall. On their day, I think they’ll surprise a few next year.

Early I know, but you throw Macdonald (looked good the games I seen) in that side over Philips and its something to get excited about.
 

Cubs2Lions

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Jan 12, 2021
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If that is the case then that really is a bit of a dog act by both North and Hugh.
Moral of the story for the Suns and the 17 other clubs out there is don't decide to temporary delist your valuable/mature player/s at the club, in the hopes of redrafting them at the draft in the future, like I'm sorry but who the actually crap thinks of that being such a wonderful idea in the whole scheme of things. I mean, if the Suns were really in dire straits about needing to delist players and then redrafting them to the club, don't decide to do it to one of the few mature players at the club who actually plays decent footy in their Best 22 for fu** sake.

Sadly though, this has just been human nature for the club really, since its formation in 2011, to make such ridiculous and stupid-ass list management decisions like this one and giving us Lyons for free for example, and it's like they still haven't learnt anything about forming a successful list management strategy at the club, 11 years later.
 

Gadzorks

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 23, 2015
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I took like one immunology class at University so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but I really can't think of a way that the covid vaccines could have some random unknown effect on people that would justify not having the vaccine.

You can't deny he's at least being brave, but it's just for such a lost cause. It's more of a tragedy really that a career is over because of this.

Never in my life have I seen such rampant antivax rhetoric permeate the Australian psyche. It just really hasn't been a thing until now. If you look at our childhood vaccination rates historically they just don't reflect the sentiment we're seeing over these covid vaccines.

I loved Liam Jones's story and I'm just really sad it's over. If he'd retired to go build houses in Cambodia I'd be less sad about it all. At the end of the day it's his choice. He'll have a permanent spot on Sky News if he wants it. I'm just sad about the whole situation.
I grew up seeing people damaged from polio, kids getting horrendously damaged from 'everyday' disease, so I'm pro vaccination.

People 30 and under just haven't seen the problems of disease. Cause the cohort are vaccinated.

Some people can't understand what they can't see.
 

Gadzorks

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 23, 2015
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Also I have a thing called mast cell activation syndrome. It's sh*t, and life long sh*t. There is no cure, and ongoing treatment is hit and miss on a daily basis. Management is a daily challenge.

Research papers are currently being published and the hypothesis is that long covid is mast cell activation syndrome.

Do everything possible to avoid this little charmer people. You do not want to go there. Ever.
 

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Jivlain

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Sep 19, 2015
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David Noble and picking up midfielders he recruited at Adelaide who've been delisted by the Suns, name a more iconic combo.

? Stupid rule. How is this using 3 draft pick? That said, the Suns opened the door. It is a proffesional game now.
You always need to add three players onto your senior list at the draft - be that by taking a picks at the draft, rookie promotion, or you try to do this thing that they've tried. Encouraging teams to have fresh blood and not just turn into the Geelong Retirement Home for Elderly Folks.

Given the rookie list (beyond cat B) doesn't mean much any more it's sort of a relic but it's not a new thing.
 

thedigger

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Sep 29, 2018
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I guess Liam Jones is seeing what is happening to sports people overseas,and decided to take no chances with his health.
 

Lions time

Draftee
Sep 8, 2017
11
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Misinformation, and peoples receptiveness to it, is the biggest problem.

A situation like Covid is too complex for some people, and it is more comforting for those people to have a simpler fairy tale narrative to explain it. A clear villain in the form of China, Bill Gates, a corporate conspiracy, Michelle Obama's secret penis or child sex traffickers is a much more digestible scenario for a lot of people. Why would I take a medically proven vaccine created to make money for BigPharma.... when I can instead take this medically unproven Joe Rogan endorsed livestock dewormer made by.... BigPharma....

For others, junk science is just more appealing for various reasons. It comes in a digestible meme or andecdote format spruiked by pretty reality TV hosts and is light on the big words and statistics.

Maybe they should read the HermanCainAward subreddit... but even quite a few of them will be immune to such a sharp dose of reality.
I live in Japan and we never had lockdowns and we also never had to check in to restaraunts etc. People happy to wear masks in general but no legislation mandating them, personal choice.

On the horse dewormer, Ivermectin was discovered by a Japanese professor and he won a Nobel Prize for it, has been administered to millions without a death, all but cured river blindness in Africa. It is recommended by many GP’s over here as a treatment in early stages of covid. Japan has had only a 100 odd cases for the country for a while now .

I recently got a chance to watch a morning show in Aus and was shocked to see the constant fear mongering throughout the show. Just my perspective from outside the Aus covid bubble.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

martinson

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Apr 4, 2015
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But, we're not forcing you to be vaccinated. There's no mandatory vaccinations.

Except you pretty much can't work or make a living in Victoria now unless you are vaccinated. But yeah, we're not forcing you to.....

This is going to take up a fair bit of the court system over the next year or so. The unfair dismissal suits have already started.

Watch the state government wash it's hands of this & let businesses get sued by their terminated employees for following state government mandates.

Wonder if it's just easier & simpler for the AFL & Carlton to pay Jones out.
When Governments are caught up in a worldwide pandemic with in many instances no money to pay for the consequences it's inevitable that short cuts and the quickest solution possible will be sought.

History says the ultimate outcomes are often not was hoped for. So I think individuals are perfectly entitled to their own choice.

Fwiiw Pfizer holds the cards so it's making the rules. I'm sure other remedies will get a look in over time and there are dozens of trials currently underway worldwide that should shed more light on things in 2022.

In the meantime the current vaccines seem to be doing a better than reasonable job in at least containing death rates. On reducing infections it's also looking positive without getting carried away.

Jones doesn't seem on any soap box and he's accepted the status quo in a dignified way.
 

briztoon

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I live in Japan and we never had lockdowns and we also never had to check in to restaraunts etc. People happy to wear masks in general but no legislation mandating them, personal choice.

On the horse dewormer, Ivermectin was discovered by a Japanese professor and he won a Nobel Prize for it, has been administered to millions without a death, all but cured river blindness in Africa. It is recommended by many GP’s over here as a treatment in early stages of covid. Japan has had only a 100 odd cases for the country for a while now .

I recently got a chance to watch a morning show in Aus and was shocked to see the constant fear mongering throughout the show. Just my perspective from outside the Aus covid bubble.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I agree the scare mongering can be over the top at times. Even on here, by posters such as myself.

But I look at what’s happened overseas, and in NSW most recently. And I’m scared what’s going to happen when it truely arrives here in Queensland. With no lockdowns.

My wife is petrified for our 3 year old daughter. She would be happy for Queensland’s borders to stay shut indefinitely, if it means shielding our daughter.

We haven’t even had our first wave yet. Let alone a second, or third, or whatever wave number Japan is up to currently.

We’ve had contained outbreaks. Since covid started, we’ve had 2,109 cases in QLD, the vast majority from returned travellers in hotel quarantine. We’ve had 9 deaths.

We haven’t yet lived through covid and become desensitised to its effect.

I just had a look at the USA’s figures. They’re up to 47 million cases and 700k+ deaths. That’s about 13% of their population who has had covid.

That would equate to 3 million Australians. We haven’t even had a fifth of a million cases nationwide yet.

From the little reading I have done, it appears Japans success is largely down to mask wearing, something which most Asian countries are happy to continue doing.

Here in QLD, as soon as the mask mandate was lifted, most people stopped wearing them. Today I saw very few people wearing them when I was at DFO or Mt Gravatt.
 

Lions time

Draftee
Sep 8, 2017
11
34
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I agree the scare mongering can be over the top at times. Even on here, by posters such as myself.

But I look at what’s happened overseas, and in NSW most recently. And I’m scared what’s going to happen when it truely arrives here in Queensland. With no lockdowns.

My wife is petrified for our 3 year old daughter. She would be happy for Queensland’s borders to stay shut indefinitely, if it means shielding our daughter.

We haven’t even had our first wave yet. Let alone a second, or third, or whatever wave number Japan is up to currently.

We’ve had contained outbreaks. Since covid started, we’ve had 2,109 cases in QLD, the vast majority from returned travellers in hotel quarantine. We’ve had 9 deaths.

We haven’t yet lived through covid and become desensitised to its effect.

I just had a look at the USA’s figures. They’re up to 47 million cases and 700k+ deaths. That’s about 13% of their population who has had covid.

That would equate to 3 million Australians. We haven’t even had a fifth of a million cases nationwide yet.

From the little reading I have done, it appears Japans success is largely down to mask wearing, something which most Asian countries are happy to continue doing.

Here in QLD, as soon as the mask mandate was lifted, most people stopped wearing them. Today I saw very few people wearing them when I was at DFO or Mt Gravatt.
I also have family in QLD and they have 2 children under 3. Children seem to be remarkably resilient to the harshest effects of Covid unless immunocompromised or other have severe underlying health conditions from what I have read from most studies.

The masks are really just a societal security blanket at this point. Never worked for influenza over here until it’s disappearance during Covid. Everyone taking them off while seated in shoulder to shoulder izakayas always makes me laugh.

Australia’s Zero Covid approach was always an eyebrow raiser for me. When has that ever worked for a virus ? Japans approach was not quite Swedens approach but pretty close. Life has been pretty normal except for some plexiglass.

Like I said the over the top, walk to wall coverage you guys are subject to is insane. Japan seems to be more measured and like I said in my previous post the use of Ivermectin and now the monoclonal antibody treatments the government has purchased for early hospitalisation seems to be doing the trick. No vaccine passports or QR codes here. Also a push for natural immunity seems to be the current talk.

Definitely strange times we live in. I hope you and your family stay safe and healthy through it all.


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lionraven

Team Captain
Feb 17, 2016
392
1,958
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I will preface my comment by saying I am vaccinated, however mandating medical treatment is an abhorrent concept and poses many difficulties from a human rights perspective. Medical intervention and things going horribly wrong is not a far fetched concept. My father was a victim of the defective thalidomide morning sickness pill that his mother took while pregnant. Many children were born without any limbs in the 50s and 60s as a result of this drug. He was lucky in the sense that he was only born without a left hand.

While I acknowledge your point regarding the practical difficulties in getting populations vaccinated (for what may be viewed as the greater good), under no circumstances are mandatory vaccinations justifiable or ethical in circumstances where the vaccine in question has only obtained provisional approval. Accordingly, all covid-19 vaccines available in Australia are currently in the clinical trial phase as the relevant authorities assess their safety and efficacy (among other things).

I urge anyone to read the following article published by the ABC last month which succinctly explores the human rights law issues associated with vaccine mandates in Victoria: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/human-rights-and-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations/13577278.

Essentially, we have an international human rights framework (for which Australia is a signatory to), which distinguishes between non-derogable and derogable human rights. To quote the abovementioned article:



A vaccine that is mandated on a population whilst it is in the clinical trial phase (or governments coerce its administration by, for example, limiting the freedoms of unvaccinated citizens to participate freely in society such that it would offend the notion of "informed consent'), ostensibly infringes on this non-derogable right of freedom from medical experimentation.

Whilst that may sound like an exaggeration, I can assure it is not. It is a matter of fact that has been considered by Deputy President Dean of the Fair Work Commission in a recent dissenting judgment handed down in an unfair dismissal matter involving an aged care employee refusing to have her flu shot. Please refer to the below extract:



The full judgment can be accessed here: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/decisionssigned/html/2021fwcfb6015.htm.

It is truly shocking that so many are willing to accept, or even worse, endorse that covid-19 vaccines (in their current form) should be mandated on populations. This is especially so given the fairly recent history of the atrocities of WWII for which many of these human rights protections arose from.

To re-iterate, the issues I am raising go beyond one's views of the perceived or actual risks of the covid-19 vaccines. It's the systemic protections that we are to supposedly have in place to safeguard human rights abuses, even in times of national emergency or crisis. In short, the systems are meant to standup to the pressures that we face today, and in the first real test since WWII, they are failing.

The willingness of governments to bypass this human rights framework by taking the easy, shortcut option to achieving vaccination rates is abhorrent.

There are further questions and difficulties associated with the lawfulness of vaccine mandates (particularly in the context of workplaces) even once a vaccine has been fully approved. We can cross that bridge when (if) we get there.

The State of Debate re Vaccine Mandates

Unfortunately populations aren't capable of having a reasonable discussion about this issue. You either have those who blindly trust the healthcare system without any critical thought, often wanting to force what they (and many others) consider the "right" thing to do (i.e. getting jabbed) for the benefit of society. Then you have those who feel they have no other option but to overstate/exaggerate the risks posed by vaccines as they feel cornered by the possibility of vaccine mandates (or those who truly believe their own scientific views).

I can appreciate the difficulty this poses for lawmakers as it is in everyone's best interests to swiftly quash misinformation. However I do not believe this should be achieved by taking steps to censor or restrict critical thought and discussion on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. We have seen this with doctors and other medical professionals who are being threatened with de-registerstion and disciplinary action if they deviate or question the government's health advice on the vaccine.

In an environment where this freedom of thought and expression has been heavily suppressed (whether or not for good reason), this makes the prospect of mandates an even more concerning proposition in the absence of such safeguards.

When one considers the entities entrusted to manufacture these treatments aren't exactly good corporate citizens (or accountable to anyone), people are justifiably concerned. Pfizer settled a criminal action in 2009 and was fined a record-breaking USD $2.3 billion for suppressing adverse trial results and fraudulent marketing - not exactly good ethical form.

The Commonwealth Government have also provided indemnities in favour of the pharmaceutical companies in their supply agreements from any harm or loss suffered due to the vaccines. While these may be standard in such agreements, it doesn't inspire much confidence that pharma are backing their product. Combine that with desperate governments looking to a vaccine-led economic recovery, the absence of any robust regulatory authority and manufacturers with questionable ethical records, it is understandable people would begin to feel nervous at the suggestion of forcing (or coercing) such medical treatments.

I am not prepared to debate the efficacy or safety of the covid-19 vaccines. In short, I am prepared to trust the medical advice and do my bit for the community. However, my decision to get jab was expediated by the threat of not being able to participate freely in society. I don't think this is the right way to go about things.

TL;DR: I am not an anti-vaxxer, I am strongly opposed to vaccine mandates - as we all should be for very good reason.
A bunch of categorization fallacies and fear-mongering in this post

1. The COVID vaccine is not a trial medication. It is the standard of care. Treatments that are the standard of care can still be involved in clinical trials. Lay-people not in the medical field do not understand this distinction. The TGA (and its equivalent for medical devices) establishes whether a treatment or medical device is safe to use in clinical trial or routine care. Various professional and governmental bodies then evaluate the evidence regarding said treatment and establish whether the evidence around this treatment meets sufficient conditions to supplant the current standard of care. In oncology in Australia it is a conjugation of surgical bodies (like USANZ for urology), cancer societies (Cancer Council, Prostate Cancer Foundation), medical/radiation oncology bodies (EVIQ) make recommendations based on the evidence in their respective fields. The Medicare Benefits Schedule and PBS establishes the majority of the standard of care by integrating all this information and publishing a list of endorsed procedures, medications and treatments for a condition. In the vaccine space it is ATAGI that establishes the standard of care. They are responsible for evaluating all available evidence and giving recommendations/guidelines on scheduling of all vaccines. ATAGI has established that they have sufficient data to authorise the use of COVID vaccines as the standard of care. You can still do further clinical trials and collect further data on the standard of care treatments. Thats what we always do. Prostatectomy is the establisehd standard of care for prostate cancer and has been for the past 50+ years. We still collect data on it eventhough it is the standard of care. Its not considered 'experimental' just because we continue to collect data on it. When a medication goes from clinical trial to standard of care has nothing to do with how long the treatment has been available. It has everything to do with how much safety and efficacy data is available and the reliability of the data. We have plenty of clinical data and real world data from Israel, the UK and our own example in NSW showing the safety and efficacy of COVID19 vaccines as a standard of care

2. In any liberal society the limit to ones own liberty is to the extent to which it infringes upon someone else. The federal level Biosecurities Act and state level Public Health Act are based on this principle. Your liberty to mail around anthrax is limited because of the health risk it posses to others. Your ability to import foreign soils is limited because of the risk of pests to local producers. You cannot work in invasive procedures as a healthcare worker if you have HIV/Hep B or Hep C because of the added risk of transmission involved in healthcare work. You cannot practice medicine in a clinical setting/hospital if you have tuberculosis or no documented herpes zoster/pertussis/diphtheria immunity because diphtheria/pertusis and chicken pox will kill people if you transmit it. These liberties have always been limited. COVID19 vaccination in healthcare is just another rung to this. COVID19 transmission will kill people. Hence healthcare workers are mandated to be vaccinated to limit their risk to their patients. The main difference between COVID19 and these other viral and bacterial vectors is that COVID19 is not limited to healthcare facilities; it is a global pandemic and is endemic throughout the world and including NSW/Victoria. That means the added risk for being unvaccinated is not just limited to hospitals/healthcare facilities. Your risk of spreading and potentially killing someone is unlimited if you are walking around the community unvaccinated and actively infectious . Hence your liberty to ride airplanes, go into enclosed spaces or mass gatherings will be limited because it infringes upon the liberties of others to live safely without being exposed to deadly diseases. Just like how you would like your treating doctor to be limited from practicing on you if they had active HIV.

3. The policies being used to roll out vaccine mandates are not new. Public Health Acts have been around for a long time and are not novel. Its not some new challenging law or new paradigm on health legislation. It is the exact same old laws being used for this new pandemic. Smokers liberties have been limited by tobacco free legislation dictating tobacco free zones. Healthcare workers liberties to practice unvaccinated or untreated for HIV/TB have always been limited. These limitations are now being applied to these unvaccinated people who pose added risks to the rest of the population

4. The scare-mongering around 'whoo whoo big pharma' is unnecessary and stupid. There are multiple different vaccines available from different manufacturers if you do not trust that company. Millions of doses of Pfizer have been administered globally by various nations and parties unaffiliated with Pfizer have been collecting data on them. If Pfizer was fraudulent in their data they would have been caught just like the ivermectin crew. One trial found a large benefit from giving ivermectin. Multiple other trials afterwards found minimal to no benefit. Hence recommendations have been to not given ivermectin as the standard of care. Pfizer published their data openly. Then multiple governments have repeated these trials and monitored their own emergency use authorisations to confirm Pfizers data. Hence ATAGI has approved this treatment. If you are willing to reject a well-studied, openly evaluated and heavily used medication because of a company name then there is nothing we can do for your conspiratorial thinking. This is the exact reason why vaccine mandates are required. People are irrational and cannot evaluate the evidence to make a rational choice. Yet they pose a massive risk for the rest of us and will keep COVID19 smouldering in our population and eventually infecting the vaccinated vulnerable people like cancer patients/elderly/immunocompromised. Hence their liberty needs to be restricted to minimise the risk to the rest of us (ie. in airplanes, large public gatherings). If the unvaccinated want to stay at home and only risk their own lives then that is fine. They have no right to risk the lives of my patients on chemotherapy who may not have a functioning immune system despite vaccinations.

5. Your painting of the No Fault Scheme for vaccinations as an indictment on the safety of the COVID19 vaccine shows you have very little perspective in healthcare. GPs and Public Health officials have been arguing for a no fault scheme for all vaccines in Australia for a long time. The facts are that if you have a 1 in a million side effect, if you administer a million doses you will likely get someone with that rare side effect. It is unpredictable who will get that effect but it is predictable that a number will depending on how many people have said treatment. It is awknowledged that vaccines provide a benefit for both the individual and the broader community however the risk is borne by the individual. Thats why GPs/Infectious Disease docs etc have been pushing for a No Fault Scheme here in Australia so that if you are an Australian following the vaccine schedule you are protected from those rare risks like GBS etc by a dedicated scheme that will fund your care if the need arises. Lots of countries around the world already have such a scheme. Australia being global leaders have been dragging their feet on this for years. The Feds finally agreed to a scheme only for COVID19 just this year but it should be extended to all vaccines and doctors have been pushing for this for years. (I doubt a liberal government will ever voluntarily increase healthcare expenditure when there are commercially-nonviable coal mines to fund for their mates)

In sum I agree that you should question and debate how public health policy is administered. What I disagree with is your characterisation that the current legislation, governance and processes around COVID19 are something novel, rushed, ill-thought out and contravening existing legislation and ideals on liberty. Public health orders are grounded in the medical ethics of justice; ensuring that everyone has access to a safe environment. We dont perceive the risks of spreading COVID19 because we think a 'chesty cough' is something to 'soldier-on'. If COVID19 was spread through bleeding out your eyeballs and anus like ebola we would probably understand the health orders and take them more seriously. Vaccine mandates are absolutely necessary. We have seen carrot and stick approaches in other health fields. Carrots like better health, breathing better etc dont work for smokers as much as the stick of high tobacco taxes. We've been placing carrots for physical activity like bike tracks, free classes/activity groups, discounted gym memberships etc and they simply dont work. The stick of no centrelink pay has helped get many more vulnerable children vacinnated than any educational campaign. You admit yourself that it is the stick of not being able to freely roam in society is what expedited you getting the vaccine. Why should my patients in oncology or all the older folks in aged care who have suffered from isolation have to suffer further by continuing to isolate from the unvaccinated when the unvaccinated have had the better of this whole year to get a free vaccine that has been well studied globally? It is only just that it should be the unvaccinated that face restrictions as they pose the threat to the rest of society.
 

lionraven

Team Captain
Feb 17, 2016
392
1,958
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I also have family in QLD and they have 2 children under 3. Children seem to be remarkably resilient to the harshest effects of Covid unless immunocompromised or other have severe underlying health conditions from what I have read from most studies.

The masks are really just a societal security blanket at this point. Never worked for influenza over here until it’s disappearance during Covid. Everyone taking them off while seated in shoulder to shoulder izakayas always makes me laugh.

Australia’s Zero Covid approach was always an eyebrow raiser for me. When has that ever worked for a virus ? Japans approach was not quite Swedens approach but pretty close. Life has been pretty normal except for some plexiglass.

Like I said the over the top, walk to wall coverage you guys are subject to is insane. Japan seems to be more measured and like I said in my previous post the use of Ivermectin and now the monoclonal antibody treatments the government has purchased for early hospitalisation seems to be doing the trick. No vaccine passports or QR codes here. Also a push for natural immunity seems to be the current talk.

Definitely strange times we live in. I hope you and your family stay safe and healthy through it all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I live in Japan and we never had lockdowns and we also never had to check in to restaraunts etc. People happy to wear masks in general but no legislation mandating them, personal choice.

On the horse dewormer, Ivermectin was discovered by a Japanese professor and he won a Nobel Prize for it, has been administered to millions without a death, all but cured river blindness in Africa. It is recommended by many GP’s over here as a treatment in early stages of covid. Japan has had only a 100 odd cases for the country for a while now .

I recently got a chance to watch a morning show in Aus and was shocked to see the constant fear mongering throughout the show. Just my perspective from outside the Aus covid bubble.


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I doubt your story.

Ivermectin has been increasingly disregarded as a treatment option. This article from Nature summarises its history https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-y. Essentially a bunch of early studies from Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Lebanon found huge benefits of giving ivermectin. A meta-analysis combining the results of those very poorly conducted positive studies plus other larger and more rigorous negative studies in India and Brazil found there may be some benefit from ivermectin. Since then two of the Egyptian studies with the biggest reported benefits were found to be complete frauds. More countries started having ivermectin trials and found negative results. The group who did the initial meta-analysis revoked their original paper and re-examined their data after removing the fraudulent Egyptian studies and found ivermectin does nothing. They are still continuing to study its use in ICU based critically ill patients.

Ivermectin works to cure river blidness because that condition is caused by a parasite and ivermectin is an anti-parasitic ... I dont get what that has to do with COVID.

Your assertion that Japan is widely using ivermectin treatment is also a US right wing media myth (like how Australia is a police state where everyone is getting beaten up). https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-japan-idUSL1N2RS1NO summarises it well. Essentially the Japanese agencies have not listed ivermectin as a standard of care for their patients. They have a high rate of vaccination and emergency distancing restrictions in place that limits spread (sounds a lot like Australia's strategy doesnt it hmmmm). They have also been in summer when infection rates lower (UV light can sterilise the virus, there are less people enclosed in tight spaces, places are more well ventilated in summer vs winter).

You have a posting history of 10 posts and 2 of them have to do with COVID19. Makes me doubt whether you are being real or just a troll account spreading misinformation.

To the rest of the board: I apologise. I will stop posting related to covid19. Its like yelling into the void. I should invest my downtime in other more creative endeavors.
 

lionraven

Team Captain
Feb 17, 2016
392
1,958
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I think there is a huge over-reaction over the Greenwood de-listing situation. Greenwood will be 30 at seasons start and is coming off a season ending MCL. I think he would still be one of the Suns top 5 midfielders this season but its hard to see how he would be in the team in 2-3 years time. They have Swallow, Weller and Ellis as elder statesmen. They need to keep getting midfield minutes into Rowell, Anderson, Elijah Hollands, Sharp, Fiorini. They are likely also getting Finn Callahan. They already lost Brodie without giving him enough midfield time to show anything (but I think he is a plodder/draft bust anyway based on his NEAFL work). The loss of Greenwood probably saves them 500k per year. Thats a good amount to bump up King and make sure he stays. I think this story is getting the works because we have nothing else to talk about and it fits in the sh*t on the suns narrative (particularly when you can look like nostradamus and claim the Lyons move as a master stroke everyone saw prior to it happening). The move I dont understand is the Rory Atkins contract. Why did they pay out such a long contract for someone who seems so banal? I admit I havent watched enough Crows or Suns matches to really appraise Atkins but he doesnt seem like an elite talent. Maybe he will pull a Seedsman and establish himself as a premier winger a couple years after being traded
 

POBT

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 10, 2004
24,194
32,660
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I think there is a huge over-reaction over the Greenwood de-listing situation. Greenwood will be 30 at seasons start and is coming off a season ending MCL. I think he would still be one of the Suns top 5 midfielders this season but its hard to see how he would be in the team in 2-3 years time. They have Swallow, Weller and Ellis as elder statesmen. They need to keep getting midfield minutes into Rowell, Anderson, Elijah Hollands, Sharp, Fiorini. They are likely also getting Finn Callahan. They already lost Brodie without giving him enough midfield time to show anything (but I think he is a plodder/draft bust anyway based on his NEAFL work). The loss of Greenwood probably saves them 500k per year. Thats a good amount to bump up King and make sure he stays. I think this story is getting the works because we have nothing else to talk about and it fits in the sh*t on the suns narrative (particularly when you can look like nostradamus and claim the Lyons move as a master stroke everyone saw prior to it happening). The move I dont understand is the Rory Atkins contract. Why did they pay out such a long contract for someone who seems so banal? I admit I havent watched enough Crows or Suns matches to really appraise Atkins but he doesnt seem like an elite talent. Maybe he will pull a Seedsman and establish himself as a premier winger a couple years after being traded
I think there's a narrative around the Greenwood departure that matters. I probably agree that, longer term, it will have only a moderate impact at best and the upside is cap space and a list spot to use.

But they clearly didn't expect this to happen. I don't think they dangled him out like bait, hoping someone would bite. They wanted to keep him, as evidenced by the revised contract offer once North's interest was known.

For a club that is challenged by retention, it feels like this is a blunder. Perhaps it is also a small window into the sense of belonging players feel at the Suns. Whether or not the Greenwood departure truly matters, it will contribute to the narrative that the Suns are a temporary place of employment for players. And that hurts retention and attraction.
 

Ceebee

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 27, 2006
8,581
7,091
Bribie Island
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Similar situation here.

Daughter and niece both have had two babies each over the last 4 years.

No Whooping cough vaccine, no see our babies.


I could have been a total dick and adopted a "no one tells me what I get injected with" policy but who wants to be a dick?

....and as my local GP told me, .....the incidence of whooping cough has been extremely rare for many years

"but do you want to be the statistical one in a million people who passes on this to an infant?"

I got the shot without reservation
We did the same for our great grandchild . Didn’t think twice about it .
 

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