Non-Lions discussion 2021

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Viceregal

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Given Geoff Walsh left late last year too, I reckon Collingwood should get rid of Buckley, Derek Hine, his lacky Ned Guy by the end of the year and just re-set the club in its entirety and start a fresh. I know quite a few really long-term coterie members and they see all through the BS and want all the old heads out too.

It really is a big opportunity for the first time in over 20 years that they can rejuvinate the place with fresh ideas etc.
Why did the thought of Vossy as the Pies' coach just pop into my head just now ...
 

BuntonRules

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Given Geoff Walsh left late last year too, I reckon Collingwood should get rid of Buckley, Derek Hine, his lacky Ned Guy by the end of the year and just re-set the club in its entirety and start a fresh. I know quite a few really long-term coterie members and they see all through the BS and want all the old heads out too.

It really is a big opportunity for the first time in over 20 years that they can rejuvinate the place with fresh ideas etc.
Yeah, Nah. Good, logical thinking - but this is Collingwood. Personally, I would rather watch them suffer.
 

Dylan12

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Hardly unsurprising given what Ed did for Dayne, but good on him for getting behind Ed nonetheless:

 

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Tom14

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Weird that Dayne Beams isn't in favour of people facing accountability for their actions!
 

KissKiss

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Pressure will stay on Buckley now as the next level of leadership.

The other question is whether there is any stain on Pendles. He has been there as part of the leadership for quite a lot of this
 

martinson

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I don't think being a non-racist who makes mistakes is good enough for someone in Eddie's position. Dayne setting a low bar
The actual truth in all this is probably a fair way off people's perceptions at this present time but the fact is it's a very sensitive issue of which Eddie was given plenty of advance warning about and he completely muffed the response. And didn't take the responsibility.
 

Dylan12

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I reckon Harry O'Brien's "story" is beginning to unravel, particularly when the likes of Simon Buckley, an ex indigenous Collingwood player, is calling Harry out for giving himself that nickname.



I'm personally not surprised by any of this.
 

knaf

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I reckon Harry O'Brien's "story" is beginning to unravel, particularly when the likes of Simon Buckley, an ex indigenous Collingwood player, is calling Harry out for giving himself that nickname.



I'm personally not surprised by any of this.
Were you surprised by anything in the “Do Better” report? surprised with Colingwood’s response?
 

davemc_lions

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What went down we never really know.
Although the SJW like to get people sacked or things changed.
Eddie was always a big target.
He did not help himself at all. Read the room badly.
Should of done like many big businesses do.. Make a big dance about who they care and how they are in touch. Then change nothing.
 

Tom14

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What went down we never really know.
Although the SJW like to get people sacked or things changed.
Eddie was always a big target.
He did not help himself at all. Read the room badly.
Should of done like many big businesses do.. Make a big dance about who they care and how they are in touch. Then change nothing.
He compared Goodes to King Kong 8 years ago and then 4 years ago said Caroline Wilson should be drowned. The SJW were pretty bad at getting rid of him!
 

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Dylan12

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Wasn't the original line from collingwood that Heritier was never called chimp?

Also if you are citing an article that is based on a Sam newman tweet to prove that something isn't racist then it is not very compelling is it.
I'm not interested in Collingwood, rather the legitimacy of Harry's story remembering his nickname that he is ever so aggrieved about was a name he gave himself and verified by other indigenous players and handed out willingly to AFL Record by him (surely if he was so offended by it back then he wouldn't have given that name as his nickname) and his inability to answer and rather deflect the question about his nickname when being interviewed by Waleed Aly. Surely if someone is so openly ok with being called a name you made up, its pretty rich coming back years later and saying the club and people were racist towards him.

I call BS on Harry's story.
 

Full Wingspan

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I'm not interested in Collingwood, rather the legitimacy of Harry's story remembering his nickname that he is ever so aggrieved about was a name he gave himself and verified by other indigenous players and handed out willingly to AFL Record by him (surely if he was so offended by it back then he wouldn't have given that name as his nickname) and his inability to answer and rather deflect the question about his nickname when being interviewed by Waleed Aly. Surely if someone is so openly ok with being called a name you made up, its pretty rich coming back years later and saying the club and people were racist towards him.

I call BS on Harry's story.
How do we know he wrote the footy record article? How do we know he wasn't just going along with it because he didn't want to be seen as a "whinger" and shot down? The report clearly found anyone who spoke out were discredited and shamed (independent of any analysis into Lumumba's circumstances or allegations).

You're completely ignoring the peer pressure exerted by the CFC and the environment of hostility (a key finding of the report that you conveniently fail to consider). Given Lumumba was a young man trying to make a career for himself, could you blame him for not speaking out?

How do we know how the question was framed? Did the interviewer ask "what nickname do the boys call you?" to which he provided that response? It's very hard to shake a nickname in a sporting club environment as well as openly express your concern about it without being shouted down.

Attempting to discredit him based on a footy record questionnaire is also just clutching at straws.

Facts are he raised it as an issue, and an independent report (which didn't comment specifically on his experiences) found the CFC consistently attempted to discredit those who raised such concerns and specifically noted their response to racist incidents was "at best ineffective, or at worst exacerbated the impact of racist incidents".

That is a damning finding and it is not surprising in the slightest if Lumumba went along with the nickname given the CFC culture which, again, was found guilty of systemic racism by an independent report.

To be honest I am completely baffled at the amount of people who are willing to excuse or shrug off the findings and continue to discredit Lumumba. You also refer to him as Harry O'Brien which comes across as petty as you know that is not his name.
 
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jackess

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I'm not interested in Collingwood, rather the legitimacy of Harry's story remembering his nickname that he is ever so aggrieved about was a name he gave himself and verified by other indigenous players and handed out willingly to AFL Record by him (surely if he was so offended by it back then he wouldn't have given that name as his nickname) and his inability to answer and rather deflect the question about his nickname when being interviewed by Waleed Aly. Surely if someone is so openly ok with being called a name you made up, its pretty rich coming back years later and saying the club and people were racist towards him.

I call BS on Harry's story.
How do we know he was openly ok with it?

Wouldn't be the first time somebody went along with a nickname they didn't like to fit in.
 

Full Wingspan

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Even if Lumumba is seeking attention to serve his own self-interest (which is exactly the type of bullshit narrative that the CFC tried to peddle out, and the very tactic it was found to employ, again, by the independent report, in dealing with instances of racism), does that necessarily make him wrong?
 

Dylan12

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How do we know he wrote the footy record article? How do we know he wasn't just going along with it because he didn't want to be seen as a "whinger" and shot down? The report clearly found anyone who spoke out were discredited and shamed (independent of any analysis into Lumumba's circumstances or allegations).

You're completely ignoring the peer pressure exerted by the CFC and the environment of hostility (a key finding of the report that you conveniently fail to consider). Given Lumumba was a young man trying to make a career for himself, could you blame him for not speaking out?

How do we know how the question was framed? Did the interviewer ask "what nickname do the boys call you?" to which he provided that response? It's very hard to shake a nickname in a sporting club environment as well as openly express your concern about it without being shouted down.

Attempting to discredit him based on a footy record questionnaire is also just clutching at straws.

Facts are he raised it as an issue, and an independent report (which didn't comment specifically on his experiences) found the CFC consistently attempted to discredit those who raised such concerns and specifically noted their response to racist incidents was "at best ineffective, or at worst exacerbated the impact of racist incidents".

That is a damning finding and it is not surprising in the slightest if Lumumba went along with the nickname given the CFC culture which, again, was found guilty of systemic racism by an independent report.

To be honest I am completely baffled at the amount of people who are willing to excuse or shrug off the findings and continue to discredit Lumumba. You also refer to him as Harry O'Brien which comes across as petty as you know that is not his name.
When I knew him being raised by a wealthy white family living in Claremont, he was Harry, so what's wrong with still calling him that?

Yep systemic racism despite other indigenous players not citing it at all. Sounds about right.

Forgive my scepticism, but not even Harry could answer questions about the nickname when pressed on it by someone else that isn't white, so as I maintain, I call BS on a lot of Harry's narrative, which isn't to say that racist things didn't occur at Collingwood.

I also still find this whole racism thing targeted at whites only very rich, when a lot of non-white people call white people derogatory names, discriminate against white people, yet those non-white people or organisations aren't put under the same microscope.

Too many double standards and too many agendas shaped by peoples desired narrative for my liking, but hey, carry on with your sympathetic view, but don't expect everyone to share it.
 

martinson

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People aren't old enough to remember but one of the greatest players of all time was affectionately (at the time ) known as ' The Chimp' . Bobby Skilton. Who could forget the legendary footage of Teddy Whitten stirring up the players at 3/4 time in a Vic vs SA game pointing out a bloodsoaked Skilts screaming out ' look at what that mongrel Kerley did to the chimp '

In that era's versions of the Footy Show he'd answer happily to Chimp . Who knows what he ever felt inside but it didn't affect the way he played. Nor am I sure whether he had any indigenous blood.

Time and events tend to shape our memories as any barrister will tell you and what we have at the moment are Heritier's recollection of his time there , Collingwood's response, the Report and Eddie's resignation. So you can draw your own conclusions from that.
 

Dlions

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People aren't old enough to remember but one of the greatest players of all time was affectionately (at the time ) known as ' The Chimp' . Bobby Skilton. Who could forget the legendary footage of Teddy Whitten stirring up the players at 3/4 time in a Vic vs SA game pointing out a bloodsoaked Skilts screaming out ' look at what that mongrel Kerley did to the chimp '

In that era's versions of the Footy Show he'd answer happily to Chimp . Who knows what he ever felt inside but it didn't affect the way he played. Nor am I sure whether he had any indigenous blood.

Time and events tend to shape our memories as any barrister will tell you and what we have at the moment are Heritier's recollection of his time there , Collingwood's response, the Report and Eddie's resignation. So you can draw your own conclusions from that.
My sister told me I looked Like an Ape once.
It hurt my feelings😕
 

patfullfankezz

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The nicknames we gave people at school and at footy clubs were often cruel in hindsight.

Some thought it toughened them up.
If being overly anxious, sensitive to criticism and generally bitter about my school days is toughening up I guess. I mean, I'm in a good place in life (getting married, working for a youth charity, being an autism advocate) but name-calling in school added nothing to that.

I think in prior eras it was just easier to shove your depression etc deep down inside of you and just soldier on until it killed you. The suicide rates back a century ago were terrible.
 

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