Article North Melbourne - Official History of VFL Entry

[Snake_Baker]

What’s this then?

I would dispute that this is the "Albert Park cum North Melbourne" football jumper from 1876.

Albert Park wore the white with red sash strip that was later adopted by South Melbourne when those clubs amalgamated.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2016-04-27/on-this-day-south-adpots-the-sash

West Melbourne wore a red and white hooped jumper in the style of Geelong.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I would dispute that this is the "Albert Park cum North Melbourne" football jumper from 1876.

Albert Park wore the white with red sash strip that was later adopted by South Melbourne when those clubs amalgamated.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2016-04-27/on-this-day-south-adpots-the-sash

West Melbourne wore a red and white hooped jumper in the style of Geelong.

Wrong - it's North Melbourne's jumper from 1908, with the blue and white from North's jumper and the red from West's.

No remnant of West Melbourne passed over with the exception of some players.

Except the jumper changed, because it was a merged club.

Consider yourself schooled, again.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Wrong - it's North Melbourne's jumper from 1908, with the blue and white from North's jumper and the red from West's.

Except the jumper changed, because it was a merged club.

Consider yourself schooled, again.

Yeah, I dispute it.

Anyway, that's just a side issue, your North/essedon 1921 story has been taken to the cleaners.

Jog along.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I draw the readers attention to the words, "no permits shall be granted after July 1". North did not "disband", the club fielded a side in the 1921 VFA season. The North players had signed VFL permits to play as VFL players and were no longer allowed to play as VFA players after the 30th of June. North simply couldn't field a side beyond this point, and the VFA disqualified the club for the remainder of 1921 anyway. North recorded 5 wins from 8 matches in this season.

North returned to VFA football in 1922 and finished 3rd.

Essendon took off when it worked out that it was in fact the mark, with the North list that had signed on prior to July 1st for Windy Hill and a side that had not even played finals in a decade, then promptly won back to back flags in 1923 and 1924 with Norths Syd Barker as captain coach.

Bunk, consider yourself schooled. Again.

The problem is, you don't approach the history without an agenda. You have some strange need to have North painted in a certain light.

Essendon didn't take off from Arden Street. They were set to move and it was blocked by government. Your own club's history states this.

The North Melbourne board folded their club to make way for Essendon at Arden Street. I'm sure there were some of them saying "oh we'll rename Essendon to North Melbourne down the track, it'll be our club folks". So what? We're not dealing with alternate history. I'm sure they were saying things like that, as you point out they had angry supporters to appease who'd just had their club folded. They were probably ready to lynch them.

The simple, bare facts are:

- Essendon had to move out of the EMCG
- Essendon proposed a move to Arden Street
- The North Melbourne board folded their club so Essendon could take the ground
- The move was blocked by the powers that be, due to the VFA's dogged fight to keep the ground in their competition
- Essendon instead moved to Windy Hill
- North reformed themselves and played on in the VFA

Your own version is based on some alternate history that never happened.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The history is there in the article from the time, which I have provided.

"The disappearance of essendon"

End of story.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Yeah, I dispute it.

Anyway, that's just a side issue, you're North/essedon 1921 story has been taken to the cleaners.

Jog along.

You dispute it? It's your own club's history

http://www.nmfc.com.au/club/history/jumper-history

What bizarre dimension is this? You simply say "I dispute that" when you're proven totally wrong?

You base your stories not on the actual facts, but a few random statements about what somebody wanted at the time if things went differently?

You're not doing history, you're making up fantasies in your mind.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You dispute it? It's your own club's history

http://www.nmfc.com.au/club/history/jumper-history

What bizarre dimension is this? You simply say "I dispute that" when you're proven totally wrong?

You base your stories not on the actual facts, but a few random statements about what somebody wanted at the time if things went differently?

You're not doing history, you're making up fantasies in your mind.

Yeah, whatever.

It has nothing to do with 1921.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The history is there in the article from the time, which I have provided.

"The disappearance of essendon"

End of story.

It's the headline of an opinion piece in a newspaper.

It's not an historical account of what happened.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Yeah, whatever.

It has nothing to do with 1921.

Who said it does? You're the one who posted it.

It's just another piece of North Melbourne "history" you posted which is wrong.

You said West Melbourne folded and there were no remnants of the club left except the players. That's incorrect - the clubs merged and a new jumper was created and worn to reflect that.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Never mind Bunk.

Your mob were saved by an act of local government cronyism (ironic) and went on to fight another day.

 

[Mero]

Right. Evidence that Essendon were to be taken over by North Melbourne then

Essendon FC puts out a podcast each week called Always Striving with Dan Eddy and Gregor McCaskie.
Last week's episode touches on the 1921 proposed 'amalgamation' and how the new club would most likely eventually be called North Melbourne.
Even if it was Essendon-North Melbourne or North Melbourne-Essendon for a short time.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Bin-Go!

"We almost ceased to exist" - EFC historian

 

[Bunk Moreland]

There's nothing there that we haven't already discussed. Of course there was talk of the 'plan' by North to "take over" Essendon. Nobody disputes that. Would it have happened? Who knows? Essendon were a powerful club. Would their supporters have allowed names and other things to just be changed? Again, who knows? To state it as fact is laughable.

Were it somehow the case, why didn't North just "take over" Essendon anyway? North didn't have a club of their own for a time. If a takeover was the plan, they could've just done it anyway and played at Arden St in the VFA, or elsewhere (such as Windy Hill) in the VFL.

The history is simple - it didn't happen. It's in black and white. History is a study of what happened, not the couldas, shouldas, wouldas and alternate histories.

When's Essendon's move to Arden St was blocked, they didn't fold, or disband themselves, or amalgamate, or get taken over, or anything else - they simply moved to Windy Hill instead and played on as the same established club they'd always been and still are to this day.

Back to how this conversation started - I state again, you hear some North people talk of this strange theory that Essendon somehow stiffed them in 1921 by agreeing to take over Arden Street and then backing out. It's demonstrably not the case - Essendon's move to Arden St was blocked by authorities under lobbying from the VFA. Rather than disbanding, merging or being taken over, Essendon simply chose to move to Windy Hill instead and played on.

 

[Obi fella]

I love the passion of the rivalry. Rivalries happen in many different ways & this is one of them. Whether fact or fiction is irrelevant. It's what our folks drum into us to a big extent. Let this continue for generations!

 

[Our Game]

Prahran missed their chance in 1925 to be admitted in to the VFL because they didn't have control of their oval. Toorak Park was controlled by the Prahran Council and made things difficult for the club for years (both before and after).

I dont think that was the only reason as many of the VFL grounds were controlled by the local councils.
Footscray also was a council controlled ground right up till they stopped playing there in fact the council ran the gorund on match days sending the club a cheque of the takings after expenses were taken out.

 

[Bombermania]

As I understood it, the EFC committee voted to merge with North, and all was going smoothly until a group of "well connected wealthy" EFC supporters rejected the idea on the grounds that the merger would result in the club disappearing, so they started a campaign to get the merger disallowed which it eventually was.

On the wider VFA, it is a pity that clubs like Port, Williamstown, Prahran and Brunswick were not entered into the VFL however I doubt the current competition would be able to sustain 14 or 15 Victorian based clubs.

 

[BringBackTorps]

On the wider VFA, it is a pity that clubs like Port, Williamstown, Prahran and Brunswick were not entered into the VFL however I doubt the current competition would be able to sustain 14 or 15 Victorian based clubs.

The real pity is that a truly independent, strong & vibrant 2nd tier no longer exists. Big VFA clubs like Dandenong, Sandringham, Geelong West, Frankston etc. brought elite AF to enthusiastic crowds in the suburbs.
AF culture is notably weaker in Melbourne now, cf. the pre 1982 era- per capita AFL crowds are well down. Also, there has been a significant loss of market share to soccer, basketball, computer games etc. This is the other part of the tragedy, apart from the VFA's demise

 

[Snake_Baker]

As I understood it, the EFC committee voted to merge with North, and all was going smoothly until a group of "well connected wealthy" EFC supporters rejected the idea on the grounds that the merger would result in the club disappearing, so they started a campaign to get the merger disallowed which it eventually was.

On the wider VFA, it is a pity that clubs like Port, Williamstown, Prahran and Brunswick were not entered into the VFL however I doubt the current competition would be able to sustain 14 or 15 Victorian based clubs.

Basically correct.

Corrupt EFC official A.F.Showler utilised public funds to initiate a tram spur to Windy Hill on the proviso they could have the ground as a home base, and the local council tossed out and killed the Essendon Association Football Club, so it's kinda ironic reading about essendon fans having empathy for dead VFA clubs.

Of course, the EFC built a grandstand in the blokes honor.

 

[mianfei]

The real pity is that a truly independent, strong & vibrant 2nd tier no longer exists. Big VFA clubs like Dandenong, Sandringham, Geelong West, Frankston etc. brought elite AF to enthusiastic crowds in the suburbs.
AF culture is notably weaker in Melbourne now, cf. the pre-1982 era per capita AFL crowds are well down. Also, there has been a significant loss of market share to soccer, basketball, computer games etc. This is the other part of the tragedy, apart from the VFA's demise

Part of the problem for the VFA was the vast wave of “boat people” Asian immigration that occurred in the late 1970s and 1980s. East and Southeast Asians are an ethnic group both physically utterly unsuited to Australian Rules football (short stature and low bone density) and having zero possibility of understanding the sport from the point of view of their home culture. Although several VFA clubs (notably Northcote) and the VFL’s “soccer belt” clubs South Melbourne, Fitzroy, Footscray and North Melbourne did suffer critical erosion of their support bases from the earlier wave of Southern and Eastern European immigration, the later wave of Asian immigration:

1. was much more rapid in its effect on the supporter base of affected clubs, taking less than a decade to decimate thriving clubs
   
2. eroded the affected clubs (Dandenong, Oakleigh, Yarraville, Sunshine, perhaps Coburg, Brunswick and Preston) much more completely
3. concentrated its destruction of supporter bases much more upon only the VFA without severely decimating the support base of any VFL club

Although today does reveal a significant loss of market share to soccer and basketball, the situation in the middle 1980s was such that every single Australian Rules competition was losing money very heavily. This was no doubt due to the fact that the sport as played then was extremely unsuited to television (extensive ground play, frequent long wide-angle kicks) and that the failure of public transport to expand to a significant degree beyond the old inner suburbs meant that as those emptied fewer and fewer people had the inclination or the time to go to watch VFL, VFA, SANFL or WANFL games.

Had the VFL not altered the game to make it more suitable for television (they have been helped in this by a heating and drying climate that encourages more kick-and-mark play and higher kicking much better for TV viewing) via such moves as night games and complete “ground rationalisation”, it is very likely basketball would have taken over from Australian Rules as the leading sport in the southern and western states. As it is, the AFL has been able to cause a decline in the fortunes of the NBL, especially since the 1990s.

When you say there has been a loss of market share, BringBackTorps, are you taking into account TV audiences as well as attendances?? It is highly plausible than increased TV viewership more than compensates for reduced attendance due to alternative attractions and difficulty of getting to grounds due to bad or absent weekend public transport.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Part of the problem for the VFA was the vast wave of “boat people” Asian immigration that occurred in the late 1970s and 1980s.[Not the major problem] Although several VFA clubs (notably Northcote) and the VFL’s “soccer belt” clubs South Melbourne, Fitzroy, Footscray and North Melbourne did suffer critical erosion of their support bases from the earlier wave of Southern and Eastern European immigration[Exactly- most came late 40's to mid 70's, but VFA still then very strong. VFA had many anglo/celt fans from nearby regions]

... the sport as played then was extremely unsuited to television (extensive ground play, frequent long wide-angle kicks)[Disagree] and that the failure of public transport to expand to a significant degree beyond the old inner suburbs meant that as those emptied fewer and fewer people had the inclination or the time to go to watch VFL, VFA, SANFL or WANFL games.[Disagree]

Had the VFL not altered the game to make it more suitable for television (they have been helped in this by a heating and drying climate that encourages more kick-and-mark play and higher kicking much better for TV viewing)[Handballs, non-contested marks & short kicks are at record highs in modern era] via such moves as night games and complete “ground rationalisation”, it is very likely basketball would have taken over from Australian Rules as the leading sport in the southern and western states.[Disagree]


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My reference to a "loss of market share" refers to the significant decline (as an AF % of total playing nos., cf. other sports) in AF participant nos. in Vic., WA, SA, & Tas. Soccer & basketball have had a far greater % growth. (In NSW, Qld., & NT, AF nos. have grown very strongly)

As all AFL games are televised now, I assume total TV & Foxtel rating nos. would be higher, cf. previous decades. Admittedly, when the population was less than half of today, in the 60's for a short time, all 4 Melb. TV stations were running some VFL replays, & most had popular pre or post game VFL panel shows.

In his 2004 book on the history of the VFA, highly regarded historian Marc Fiddian wrote at pg.19 "..the overwhelming factor that caused the VFA to shut up shop was the VFL's entry to Sunday football".
I agree.

 

[mianfei]

In his 2004 book on the history of the VFA, highly regarded historian Marc Fiddian wrote at pg.19 “...the overwhelming factor that caused the VFA to shut up shop was the VFL’s entry to Sunday football”.

Whilst Sunday VFL football cannot have helped the VFA, fails to take into account that the WA(N)FL was in just as much trouble as the VFA, and Western Australia did not have the problem of competition via Sunday football.

Western Australia may have had greater problems of losing players to the VFL than the VFA did simply because the VFA was more acquainted with that issue, but unlike the VFA the WA(N)FL was played on Saturdays so was not affected by Sunday football. In fact, the WA(N)FL was adopting Sunday football during the very period Australia Rules was in its most acute financial difficulties, and doing so with – for the period – success. Moreover, the VFL was suffering from declining crowds just as deeply as the VFA and WA(N)FL, and it is probable that St. Kilda would have gone extinct in the late 1980s without the draft, salary cap and new licences. So might Melbourne, Footscray and North Melbourne, unless relocation were an option – and improvements in the financial viability of the NSWRL beginning in 1984 was lessening that prospect.

Although the collapse of the VFA undoubtedly had multiple causes, Sunday VFL football by itself – with smaller-than-observed numbers of Asian immigrants and with a more scientific transport study than the appalling BHP-, GM/H- and CRB-funded Lonie Report – would I feel have been insufficient to produce the observed demise of the VFA.