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Note Holders Question.

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Monksta

Rookie
Mar 10, 2014
30
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AFL Club
West Coast
Gday, we live in Perth and are going to be in Melbourne at GF time this year. I've been told a friends parents have note holders tickets and they may be able to purchase GF tix for me... should we make it

So trying not to bother them too much (in case they do not have the answers), I have some questions...

One "note holder" can buy how many tix?
When does the "note holder" register interest in buying the GF ticket?
When can then the "note holder" buy the GF ticket?

Cheers for any help.
Monksta
 
Monksta said:
Gday, we live in Perth and are going to be in Melbourne at GF time this year. I've been told a friends parents have note holders tickets and they may be able to purchase GF tix for me... should we make it

So trying not to bother them too much (in case they do not have the answers), I have some questions...

One "note holder" can buy how many tix?
When does the "note holder" register interest in buying the GF ticket?
When can then the "note holder" buy the GF ticket?

Cheers for any help.
Monksta
Click to expand...
It appears with the move to the new stadium the noteholder status means FA when it comes to purchasing tickets to finals which was basically the only thing it ever did for us. Used to be able to buy tickets to the finals one hour before regular seated members. Basically being a noteholder and buying finals tickets = same as regular seated member so one membership = 1 finals ticket bought at the same time as every other seated member.
 
JinmboJones said:
It appears with the move to the new stadium the noteholder status means FA when it comes to purchasing tickets to finals which was basically the only thing it ever did for us. Used to be able to buy tickets to the finals one hour before regular seated members. Basically being a noteholder and buying finals tickets = same as regular seated member so one membership = 1 finals ticket bought at the same time as every other seated member.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your replies.
That sounds like a raw deal for those who have paid a premium for these.
So my best/only option to get tickets will be to just ring through with all other members and hope for the best then.

I appreciate your help.
Cheers
 

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Monksta said:
Thanks for your replies.
That sounds like a raw deal for those who have paid a premium for these.
So my best/only option to get tickets will be to just ring through with all other members and hope for the best then.

I appreciate your help.
Cheers
Click to expand...
I think it is a raw deal - they were required to sell their shares to the wafc and in return got access - if its true they have reneged on the deal.
 
kranky al said:
I think it is a raw deal - they were required to sell their shares to the wafc and in return got access - if its true they have reneged on the deal.
Click to expand...
They were never designed to be some perpetual deal. They cost what, $400 or something back in the day and then became worth thousands as it was the only way to get Eagles tickets? Every other member got a raw deal because of them. They got their money's worth over the best part of 3 decades.

It was well telegraphed by the club that they would be restructuring memberships with the new stadium, so people shouldn't be surprised.

To further this, why should OP, who doesn't appear to be a member, get priority over someone who is a paid up member? A current member spends anywhere from $400 to $2k on their seated membership, but because they know somebody who is a noteholder who paid $400 for the note 3 decades ago and has been milking it ever since, they get to jump in front? Despite the noteholder not contributing anything to the club this year if they're not a member.

Yeah, nah.
 
greennick said:
They were never designed to be some perpetual deal. They cost what, $400 or something back in the day and then became worth thousands as it was the only way to get Eagles tickets? Every other member got a raw deal because of them. They got their money's worth over the best part of 3 decades.

It was well telegraphed by the club that they would be restructuring memberships with the new stadium, so people shouldn't be surprised.

To further this, why should OP, who doesn't appear to be a member, get priority over someone who is a paid up member? A current member spends anywhere from $400 to $2k on their seated membership, but because they know somebody who is a noteholder who paid $400 for the note 3 decades ago and has been milking it ever since, they get to jump in front? Despite the noteholder not contributing anything to the club this year if they're not a member.

Yeah, nah.
Click to expand...
So, you bought shares "three decades ago" for $400. You've had plenty of dividends in those three decades, it's ok then if suddenly those shares are now worth $0? No? Thought not.
 
JinmboJones said:
So, you bought shares "three decades ago" for $400. You've had plenty of dividends in those three decades, it's ok then if suddenly those shares are now worth $0? No? Thought not.
Click to expand...
You still have the shares. You just don't have the benefits linked to the Eagles at subiaco oval.

But you did have a chance to transfer the GF benefit across if you wanted.

Lots of shares end up up being $0. So yeh, it's OK.

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oak79 said:
You still have the shares. You just don't have the benefits linked to the Eagles at subiaco oval.

But you did have a chance to transfer the GF benefit across if you wanted.

Lots of shares end up up being $0. So yeh, it's OK.
Click to expand...

The benefits were never associated with a particular oval. I was never aware of any supposed option you refer to about GF allocation but even if true it's not very useful having had 2 GF appearances since we've had our notes.

But you're right, lots of shares end up being zero, just not immediately and not as a result of a directive issued by the company you invested in.

frenchconnection said:
It does happen and it's a risk one takes the that value of said investment in the future could change!
Click to expand...

Agreed, but the scenario we're faced with is not the same as a free market.
 
People might not have been aware that Capt Club members could get into the WAFL GF for free at Subi which I assume has gone the way of the Note holders privilege too. (I'm not complaining about it)
 
JinmboJones said:
The benefits were never associated with a particular oval. I was never aware of any supposed option you refer to about GF allocation but even if true it's not very useful having had 2 GF appearances since we've had our notes.

But you're right, lots of shares end up being zero, just not immediately and not as a result of a directive issued by the company you invested in.

Agreed, but the scenario we're faced with is not the same as a free market.
Click to expand...

Noteholders had guaranteed GF tickets if they went in the ballet. Same as with other finals. That was communicated before every final, including the grand finals.

The scenario we're faced with is people got great value from their notes over the years. If they chose not to use it (ie get Grand Final tickets) that was their choice.

As part of moving to the new stadium they had a chance to rollover the 'grand final' benefit by choosing Cat A (or better) seats, if they chose to. They had a window before any other members to select these seats.

All of this was communicated to noteholders (and other members) via email, mail and the website.

The expectation that people could continue to get that value forever, and transfer for it to whoever they want, is unrealistic.

Noteholders have a right to be disappointed things changed, but that's about it.
 

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oak79 said:
Noteholders had guaranteed GF tickets if they went in the ballet. Same as with other finals. That was communicated before every final, including the grand finals.

The scenario we're faced with is people got great value from their notes over the years. If they chose not to use it (ie get Grand Final tickets) that was their choice.

As part of moving to the new stadium they had a chance to rollover the 'grand final' benefit by choosing Cat A (or better) seats, if they chose to. They had a window before any other members to select these seats.

All of this was communicated to noteholders (and other members) via email, mail and the website.

The expectation that people could continue to get that value forever, and transfer for it to whoever they want, is unrealistic.

Noteholders have a right to be disappointed things changed, but that's about it.
Click to expand...

Oh we're not disappointed, we're ANGRY

oldmanyellsatcloud

oldmanyellsatcloud


And PS our grand final seats in 05 and 06 were rubbish...
 
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JinmboJones said:
Oh we're not disappointed, we're ANGRY

oldmanyellsatcloud

oldmanyellsatcloud


And PS our grand final seats in 05 and 06 were rubbish...
Click to expand...
Everyones grand final seats are rubbish - unless your an MCC member, AFL member or corporate. Clubs get the leftovers. Be thankful you had them guaranteed - a lot of members missed out.

Or just keep yelling at that cloud. It won't change anything, but may make you feel better.

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Regarding note-holders, fairly sure that a 'note' is comparable to a bond. Money lent by the note-holder provides financial security for the company or organisation (WCE), and in return WCE are obliged to repay its value to the lender over a certain time (can vary greatly).

Notes are not 'shares'; their value does not decline based on the share price of the company (even then, WCE is non-listed and owned by the non-for-profit WAFC). Think of notes as long-term bills with instalments. Many bond arrangements accrue interest.

In this case, one could argue that an initial repayment of the value of the note is membership priority. However, it's unrealistic to assume that this makes up the full repayment value, as annual full membership fees still apply. In addition, a 'note' is a loan that's repaid after/over a period of time... Note-holders were guaranteed annual finals ticketing priority as an incentive for them to buy the note in the first place.

WCE designed this program in order to make money, through accommodating people prepared to pay a fair amount in return for annual access to finals and home games, who otherwise couldn't/wouldn't pay a stupid amount each year for a luxury membership package and cushioned seat. They're hanging them out to dry atm, and I don't think it's over.
 
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Just to clarify a few points. When moving to the new stadium I asked about pur Noteholder privileges and was told they do not know what will happen in fact I called them only 1 month ago and no one still could tell me what privileges we would get regarding finals. The first I heard was an email the day before tickets went on sale. Yea we have had our fair share of bonuses over the years and I really don't have a issue with loss of priority i do however have an issue with back of communication. Also if they wanted to get rid of the notes then buy us out. Simple. For the record, it was closer to $1200 A note. My second issue is that WC have no issue in advertising the fact that we helped start the club but then shaft us.
 
matt_bas said:
Just to clarify a few points. When moving to the new stadium I asked about pur Noteholder privileges and was told they do not know what will happen in fact I called them only 1 month ago and no one still could tell me what privileges we would get regarding finals. The first I heard was an email the day before tickets went on sale. Yea we have had our fair share of bonuses over the years and I really don't have a issue with loss of priority i do however have an issue with back of communication. Also if they wanted to get rid of the notes then buy us out. Simple. For the record, it was closer to $1200 A note. My second issue is that WC have no issue in advertising the fact that we helped start the club but then shaft us.
Click to expand...
Shafted you ? Are you ignoring the 30 years of benefits - and the fact you had priority pick of seats INCLUDING priority 1 GF seats.

If you chose the P1 seats, the benefits (albeit less) are still ongoing.

I do agree Eagles communication could have been better.
 
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oak79 said:
Shafted you ? Are you ignoring the 30 years of benefits - and the fact you had priority pick of seats INCLUDING priority 1 GF seats.

If you chose the P1 seats, the benefits (albeit less) are still ongoing.

I do agree Eagles communication could have been better.
Click to expand...

When you quote 30 years of benefits you're assuming everyone bought at the inception of the club, which is not the case. Members bought and sold notes after that case in point ourselves who bought with our memberships 15 odd years ago.

In your posts on this subject you seem to be bitter about the fact those who bought notes were afforded a privilege that the rest of the membership didn't get and that it's OK to lose that because we had "30 years of benefit" (conveniently ignoring the obvious point which is the only years in which it provided benefit was in finals years, the rest of the time it meant FA) and we should be happy with having that taken away for zero compensation. Sorry, but no.
 

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JinmboJones said:
When you quote 30 years of benefits you're assuming everyone bought at the inception of the club, which is not the case. Members bought and sold notes after that case in point ourselves who bought with our memberships 15 odd years ago.

In your posts on this subject you seem to be bitter about the fact those who bought notes were afforded a privilege that the rest of the membership didn't get and that it's OK to lose that because we had "30 years of benefit" (conveniently ignoring the obvious point which is the only years in which it provided benefit was in finals years, the rest of the time it meant FA) and we should be happy with having that taken away for zero compensation. Sorry, but no.
Click to expand...
I'm not bitter at all. I think it was great for the people that had them. Good for you.

But I think it's unrealistic to expect they would offer the finals tickets benefits forever, that's all. What timeframe do you think the benefits should have applied for? A stadium move seems to make sense as the time it would end.

If you got compensation, then that would have been great - I wouldn't have a had a problem with it - and I dont think many others would have.

But what would have been fair compensation in your eyes? The club only sold them for the initial price - should they compensate people for more than that? It's not the Eagles fault if people paid more when they bought them later - at no benefit to West Coast.

You took a gamble, and in your mind your lost. Unfortunately that happens sometimes in life. It seems to be you are actually the one bitter about it. Again, totally understand that Eagles communication was probably not clear - and you should feel annoyed by that.

As a side note, the Eagles have played in finals more years than any club since the VFL became the AFL, so that worked out well for noteholders.

But again, I'm interested to know what fair compo is to you. Surely it should actually be less than the initial price since benefits have been 'redeemed'.
 
greennick said:
They were never designed to be some perpetual deal. They cost what, $400 or something back in the day and then became worth thousands as it was the only way to get Eagles tickets? Every other member got a raw deal because of them. They got their money's worth over the best part of 3 decades.

It was well telegraphed by the club that they would be restructuring memberships with the new stadium, so people shouldn't be surprised.

To further this, why should OP, who doesn't appear to be a member, get priority over someone who is a paid up member? A current member spends anywhere from $400 to $2k on their seated membership, but because they know somebody who is a noteholder who paid $400 for the note 3 decades ago and has been milking it ever since, they get to jump in front? Despite the noteholder not contributing anything to the club this year if they're not a member.

Yeah, nah.
Click to expand...
My dads the noteholder and has been a member since inception, attended every grand final and 90% of games.
 
oak79 said:
I'm not bitter at all. I think it was great for the people that had them. Good for you.

But I think it's unrealistic to expect they would offer the finals tickets benefits forever, that's all. What timeframe do you think the benefits should have applied for? A stadium move seems to make sense as the time it would end.

If you got compensation, then that would have been great - I wouldn't have a had a problem with it - and I dont think many others would have.

But what would have been fair compensation in your eyes? The club only sold them for the initial price - should they compensate people for more than that? It's not the Eagles fault if people paid more when they bought them later - at no benefit to West Coast.

You took a gamble, and in your mind your lost. Unfortunately that happens sometimes in life. It seems to be you are actually the one bitter about it. Again, totally understand that Eagles communication was probably not clear - and you should feel annoyed by that.

As a side note, the Eagles have played in finals more years than any club since the VFL became the AFL, so that worked out well for noteholders.

But again, I'm interested to know what fair compo is to you. Surely it should actually be less than the initial price since benefits have been 'redeemed'.
Click to expand...
There wasnt a time limit put on the benefits.

Id not be surprised if theres a court case over this
 
Yeah, I'd feel shafted if i were a noteholder. It's not fair to deprive someone of an asset which has continuing value regardless of membership type and in return give them the one off chance to have first priority on the most expensive memberships.

What if a noteholder didn't want/couldn't afford the premium GF priority memberships?

I heard notes were going for about $1,000 each when the club were selling them to existing members back in about 2001. I wonder what the fine print said.
 
kranky al said:
There wasnt a time limit put on the benefits.

Id not be surprised if theres a court case over this
Click to expand...
So let's say it was $1000 - they should give you finals benefit for a thousand years? What if the AFL owned the club ? Changed name? Location (ie relocated to tasi )?

I'm guessing the Eagles lawyers would have looked at the paper work.

Are you ignoring the fact noteholders had the option to select seats with grand final priority? I'm pretty sure most did.

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oak79 said:
So let's say it was $1000 - they should give you finals benefit for a thousand years? What if the AFL owned the club ? Changed name? Location (ie relocated to tasi )?

I'm guessing the Eagles lawyers would have looked at the paper work.

Are you ignoring the fact noteholders had the option to select seats with grand final priority? I'm pretty sure most did.

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Click to expand...
Because the noteholders helped get the club up and going.

You are looking at the cash in terms of todays money - that $1300 was worth a hell of a lot more then. Its around $3700 in todays terms.

Noone knew that the club would exist in 5 years time - it was a lot of money on a total unknown AND it came with a guarantee. It didnt come with a guarantee with a grandfather clause on it. If they wanted it to end at some point - you sell it as ending in 30 years or whatever.


To put it more succinctly - without that guarantee - theres a fair portion would never have put that money down.

As a result the notes were worth good coin - as i said - i think there will be a lawsuit over this.
 
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