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funkyfreo

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#77
bunsen burner said:
And risk your preferred party losing the election? Hindsight is all well and good.
A vote for a different party in the upper house does not in any way alter the outcome of who wins government - just to clarify a point. No hindsight needed.
 

hoss

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#79
bunsen burner said:
Because they're both in la-la land. Neither party is capable of running the country. If either of these paties were put in charge the economy would collapse and we'd be in chaos.
The Democrats or Greens would NEVER have the opportunity to run the country - we all know that. No worth even considering the possibility BB.

It amazes me that people get so worked up over Green policies, such as legalisation of hard drugs etc when they shouldn't even be taken seriously. It is all about recognition. Bob Brown would create any policy provided it attracted media attention and PR.
 

funkyfreo

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#80
hoss said:
The Democrats or Greens would NEVER have the opportunity to run the country - we all know that. No worth even considering the possibility BB.

It amazes me that people get so worked up over Green policies, such as legalisation of hard drugs etc when they shouldn't even be taken seriously. It is all about recognition. Bob Brown would create any policy provided it attracted media attention and PR.
How he let Howard beat him to border protection and the Tampa crisis must be his greatest regret!!
 

hoss

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#81
funkyfreo said:
How he let Howard beat him to border protection and the Tampa crisis must be his greatest regret!!
:) Correct. Howard appeals to the mildly racist and xenophobic tendencies/fears of everyday Australians, without being blatantly racist himself.
 

Contra Mundum

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#82
hoss said:
The Democrats or Greens would NEVER have the opportunity to run the country - we all know that. No worth even considering the possibility BB.

It amazes me that people get so worked up over Green policies, such as legalisation of hard drugs etc when they shouldn't even be taken seriously. It is all about recognition. Bob Brown would create any policy provided it attracted media attention and PR.
Anybody that has seen a junkie die in jail will know that it is a health and not a law and order issue
 

zero

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#84
bunsen burner said:
That has nothing to do with the above statements. Do you want to try again?
sure, my time got cut short yesterday, in fact its not that great today

- blackmailing them , bullying them
the issue isnt just with the US, but because they are the largest and one of the most willing to get involved in the internal workings of other countries, they cop the most flak. the radical islamists big problem is the interventionist wests involvement with islam, they see an even flow of problems that go back through iraq, back to lebanon, to deposing the shah in iran, back to the english empire and back, even back to the crusades. for them, the christian crusades never ended, and christians and jews have always tried to dominate muslims.

- religous fundamentalists like bin laden were bred by bush.
this comment is so vague, i cant really answer it. its very true, though, that bushs policies, his handling of iraq and the war on terror, are definitely inflaming anti-american opinion, hence expanding the recruitment base of fundamentalism and making yet more terrorists.

as for bin laden, his politic is very complex, partially rooted in US involvment in saudi arabia, forged in afgahnistan, and shaped by the teachings of crazy islamist ********s who all harken back to the golden age of mohammed and islam.

- bush even trained al quaeda

like i said in the last post, probably never directly.

- fought with them years ago

no, but it depends on you viewing of it, they secretly funded them, and supplied them, but probably never actually fought with them.

- bali happened because howard sent troops into fight with the yanks

ok, this isnt true. a look at the evidence that came during the investigation into bali and the trails, its pretty clear that the bombers had a problem with the west, not specifically australia, and certrainly not a specific policy of australia. in fact, that specific bombing actually had more to do with the "debauched sexual proclivity" of the decadent westerners in that night club, as viewed by celibate islamists, as did any thing else. in a poor muslim country, where people have a poor quality of life and are prevented from having sex before marriage, right smack damn in the middle was a night club where super rich white people came to get smashed and get laid. personally, im suprised it wasnt bombed sooner.

and yes, bin laden had vague links to JI, and yes he released a statement and linked the bombing to australian involvment in the war AFTER THE FACT, but that is because he is a cagey ********, not because it was part of some grand scheme against australia.

- if australian troops DID NOT go to iraq , there would NEVER have been the bombing in bali...

as i said, that looks to be false, and it would have happened anyway, if you believe the testimony of that smiling psycho and the other JI they captured.
 

bunsen burner

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#85
zero said:
- blackmailing them , bullying them
the issue isnt just with the US, but because they are the largest and one of the most willing to get involved in the internal workings of other countries, they cop the most flak. the radical islamists big problem is the interventionist wests involvement with islam, they see an even flow of problems that go back through iraq, back to lebanon, to deposing the shah in iran, back to the english empire and back, even back to the crusades. for them, the christian crusades never ended, and christians and jews have always tried to dominate muslims.
You're still not really addressing the issue. Can you provide some examples where the US has blackmailed Muslims?

- religous fundamentalists like bin laden were bred by bush.
i cant really answer it.
No sh*t.

its very true, though, that bushs policies, his handling of iraq and the war on terror, are definitely inflaming anti-american opinion, hence expanding the recruitment base of fundamentalism and making yet more terrorists.
Not applicable.

- bush even trained al quaeda
like i said in the last post, probably never directly.
So you agree that this statement is false too?

- fought with them years ago
no,
Uh huh


but it depends on you viewing of it, they secretly funded them, and supplied them, but probably never actually fought with them.
GWB never ever supplied Al Quaeda with weapons. Period.


- bali happened because howard sent troops into fight with the yanks

ok, this isnt true.
And neither is the rest. So you admit to 5 of the six Lasher statements being false and the other one you haven't directly addressed.

I'm curious: what compelled you to try and justify this loser's statements?


- if australian troops DID NOT go to iraq , there would NEVER have been the bombing in bali...

as i said, that looks to be false,
Yup.


Now care to make any further comments on Lasher's rantings?:

Lasher said:
THOSE IN AMERICA THAT VOTED FOR BUSH DESERVE TO BE SHOT AND ARE RACIST , GREEDY BASTAR#S AND MURDERES....( ie .. bush is responsible for the deaths of all those on sept 11 ..)

THOSE THAT VOTED FOR HOWARD DESERVE TO BE SHOT , ARE RACIST, GREEDY BASTAR#S , AND MURDERERS ....( ie..howard is reponsible for all those killed in bali ...bush aswell )

all those who were against howard and bush , want all troops out of iraq and would prefer to see money spent on alternative means of power ( not oil ) and real issues that affect the well being of humans deserve to live a long prosperous life..
 

zero

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#86
i didnt realize i was defending his post, i thought i was commenting on it. he has alot of misconceptions that im familiar with (because i used to have some of them myself)
bunsen burner said:
You're still not really addressing the issue. Can you provide some examples where the US has blackmailed Muslims?
dont you want me to provide examples of where the US has blackmailed and bullied muslims? i assume you dont really care what country they are from, or the situation it occurs in? right? should i make a distinction between muslim religious groups or those representing a muslim state?

just off the top of my head, on a state to state sort of level, the US threatened to cut millions of dollars in aid to yemen, and put a ban on american NGOs from sending aid to the country if they voted against them on a security council resolution on iraq in 1990.

the yemenis did indeed vote against it, and the US almost over night stopped 70 million in food and medical shipments into the country. the poor and sick were who suffered.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew74.php
http://www.dallaspeacecenter.org/dpt0212/dollarvote.htm
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=US+security+council+vote+aid+yemen+1990&meta=

thats only one instance, on an international level.
bunsen burner said:
Not applicable.
sure it is, depending on how you take to mean "bred". the conduct of bush is breeding the next generation of terrorists. hes not paying for them to be trained or armed, but they are growing more numerous, because of him.
bunsen burner said:
So you agree that this statement is false too?
thats what i said, wasnt it. the US provided weapons, money and training to arab militia groups in afgahnistan in the 80s through pakistan. they (probably) never trained them directly.
bunsen burner said:
And neither is the rest. So you admit to 5 of the six Lasher statements being false and the other one you haven't directly addressed.

I'm curious: what compelled you to try and justify this loser's statements
no, i said some of it was wrong, and that some of it was misconception.

and i thought i was commenting on his comments, not trying to prove or justify them. alot of what he said was wrong, and i said so. in fact thats why i said so. how is that trying to justify it?
bunsen burner said:
Now care to make any further comments on Lasher's rantings?:
iv got a better idea, wanna comment on some of mine?
 

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bunsen burner

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#87
zero said:
i didnt realize i was defending his post, i thought i was commenting on it.
I was asking Loser to back up his ridiculous lies. You chose to do it for him. Therefore you were defending his post.

Why you thought I wanted a debate about your ideals, I don't know. I wasn't originally talking to you.

dont you want me to provide examples of where the US has blackmailed and bullied muslims?
Yes please. That's what I did ask.


i assume you dont really care what country they are from, or the situation it occurs in? right? should i make a distinction between muslim religious groups or those representing a muslim state?
Just stick to what Lasher was talking about.

just off the top of my head, on a state to state sort of level, the US threatened to cut millions of dollars in aid to yemen, and put a ban on american NGOs from sending aid to the country if they voted against them on a security council resolution on iraq in 1990.
And what has this got to do with them being Muslims? They cut them off for an entirely different reason.


sure it is, depending on how you take to mean "bred". the conduct of bush is breeding the next generation of terrorists. hes not paying for them to be trained or armed, but they are growing more numerous, because of him.
No it's not. Loser said that Bush bred terrorists like OBL. It's not true, you even said so yourself. This is outside the parameters of the issue. You have to remember that you took on Lasher's debate. I don't care for your views. Lasher made a statement and it was wrong.

thats what i said, wasnt it.
So why pick up Lasher's argument when you knew it was wrong? What made you think this was a debate about whether or not GWB is right or wrong? This is a simple debate about Lasher getting his facts completely wrong.

Maybe next time you don't take up the fight for idiots like Lasher?

iv got a better idea, wanna comment on some of mine?
Nope.

Seems you wanted to come along, pick up when Loser left off and change the argument to suit your own ideals. Sorry champ, but not interested.

You seem to be happy to support anyone who is anti-Bush no matter how delusional they are. Maybe you need a dose of reality too?
 

lasher

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#88
ahhh bunsen burner , you truely are a gobbler.. just like your mama...

i bet you've got a nude picture of bush and howard on the ceiling above your bed...i also can imagine your favourite snack being a pillow...
 

Mr Q

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#89
Frodo said:
We've heard a lot of Bush hatred and a lot of Howard hatred in recent years, but now it should stop. The USA people and the Australian people have given 50%+ support to those leaders, so the buck sits clearly with the people now.
Well as I haven't as yet commented on the original post, well it definitely scans as not being allowed to disagree with the government.

The Government might well have a mandate to act on certain of their policies, however if I didn't continue to "hate" Howard (and Bush) I would in fact be being a hypocrite. I objected to their policies before the elections, and I still object to them; thus it is not only appropriate but almost required that I continue to object.

I can certainly acknowledge that the governement has a mandate to govern without believing that the government is right about any particular issue. I'm quite entitled to believe the electorate got it completely wrong without that impacting on believing that the electorate has the unalienable right to make that wrong decision.

If I think the Government is doing something wrong, I'm going to object to it. If I don't I'm not truly voicing my opinion, which is both a right and requirement in a democracy.
 

zero

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#90
bunsen burner said:
Seems you wanted to come along, pick up when Loser left off and change the argument to suit your own ideals. Sorry champ, but not interested.

You seem to be happy to support anyone who is anti-Bush no matter how delusional they are. Maybe you need a dose of reality too?
im happy to enter an argument i know stuff about and believe to be one way when views are expressed another way. i disagreed with what he said, and said so. i even said how. i wasnt trying to prove you wrong, or him right, i was expressing my opinion. my post was directed as much at him as at you.

i was under the impression you were interested in facts and argument. i thought you might be interested in reasoned opinion, similar to lashers but more thought out and with some factual backup. i thought you might like to hear about events and information sources. this is a political forum, after all.

but hey, if you just want to make noise and prove someone else to be ill-informed and incoherent, go right ahead. you really wont have a difficult time with lasher.
 

bunsen burner

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#91
lasher said:
ahhh bunsen burner , you truely are a gobbler.. just like your mama...

i bet you've got a nude picture of bush and howard on the ceiling above your bed...i also can imagine your favourite snack being a pillow...
I can assume your reluctance to back up any of your statements with proof is an admission of error and stupidity?

Sledging just doesn't have the same effect when it is done by the person on the receiving end of a pasting.
 

bunsen burner

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#92
zero said:
i thought you might like to hear about events and information sources. this is a political forum, after all.
Heard about them already. The said topic has been done to death.

but hey, if you just want to make noise and prove someone else to be ill-informed and incoherent, go right ahead.
Got it in a nutshell. Such people need to be made fun of. Even funnier is that he is still in denial.
 
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