NT wants a club within 10 years

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Johnny Bananas

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I showed you earlier in the thread but for the sake of clarity I'll repeat it for you :

1. Sydney - 3 teams
2. Melbourne - 5 teams
3. Brisbane - 2 teams
4. Perth - 3 teams
5. Adelaide - 3 teams
6. Gold Coast-Tweed Heads - 1 team
7. Newcastle-Maitland - 1 team
8. Canberra-Queanbeyan - 1 team
9. Central Coast - 1 team
10. Sunshine Coast - 1 team
11. Wollongong-Illawarra - 1 team
12. Geelong - 1 team
13. Hobart - 1 team
Why are we going around pretending the Central Coast, Sunshine Coast or Wollongong will ever be capable of supporting a successful AFL team? None of them can support a successful full-time team in their traditional #1 sport, what hope does a sport with little popular support have? The Central Coast has by far the least supported A-League team, it's a wonder they haven't given up and moved it to Sydney already. Wollongong couldn't even build a good enough business case to get into the A-League, despite having a team in the previous competition. Not to mention all of these places don't have any oval stadiums of significance, and they're all very decentralised, a series of towns rather than real cities. It'd be like Gold Coast but ten times worse.
 

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Johnny Bananas

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Also, I don't think Newcastle would ever be able to support a successful AFL team either. It's more centralised, but still smallish, not an Australian Rules area and very dependent on coal, which I think is on the way out within 30 years. Really, Australian sports in general have done well to not get dependent on any area with too narrow an economy.

Which brings me back to the real problem with Darwin, economics. Perhaps some investment in their university will create high-value jobs and lead to population growth.
 

Les Malone

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Also, I don't think Newcastle would ever be able to support a successful AFL team either. It's more centralised, but still smallish, not an Australian Rules area and very dependent on coal, which I think is on the way out within 30 years. Really, Australian sports in general have done well to not get dependent on any area with too narrow an economy.

Which brings me back to the real problem with Darwin, economics. Perhaps some investment in their university will create high-value jobs and lead to population growth.
Seriously what?.
 

Les Malone

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Do you have trouble reading, or are there specific responses that you have?
440,000 people in the Greater Newcastle region is not small

Coal is not the biggest employer in Newcastle

Some investment in a university in Darwin doesn't add many jobs in an area that relies on mining and tourism and the associated jobs it adds through building.

In fact Newcastle has a rich history in AF, not as strong as Canberra but about 40/50 years older, it has also made great strides in the numbers playing, particularly in the female side of the game recently.
 

Johnny Bananas

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440,000 people in the Greater Newcastle region is not small
It is if they're not mad Australian Rules fans. That's the key here. A city like Brisbane is clearly big enough to be able to draw a crowd to a less popular sport. A smaller city like the Gold Coast has struggled with it so far, and Newcastle is even smaller. And that's with the Gold Coast having some pre-existing support for grass roots Australian Rules, and the huge number of Victorian transplants.

Coal is not the biggest employer in Newcastle
I never said it was. Resources in general and mining in particular are capital-intensive, not labour-intensive. But a direct 11% of the entire economy and 90% of port traffic is an awful lot. And that's not counting the many other businesses that are essentially dependent on the mining dollar coming in to have customers. It's not like Newcastle was going well economically between the decline of heavy industry in the 70s and the beginning of the coal boom. In fact unemployment was above 8% in that entire time.

Some investment in a university in Darwin doesn't add many jobs in an area that relies on mining and tourism and the associated jobs it adds through building.
An economy reliant on mining and tourism isn't a diverse one. Think long term. Half the benefit of investing in education is to create future jobs that wouldn't otherwise exist.

In fact Newcastle has a rich history in AF, not as strong as Canberra but about 40/50 years older, it has also made great strides in the numbers playing, particularly in the female side of the game recently.
Everywhere in Australia has their own local league, some have lasted for ages. But what's important is how popular those leagues are. The Gold Coast had far more support for local clubs than Newcastle ever has, and the Gold Coast has found it tough going in the AFL so far. Newcastle would find it even tougher.
 

Les Malone

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It is if they're not mad Australian Rules fans. That's the key here. A city like Brisbane is clearly big enough to be able to draw a crowd to a less popular sport. A smaller city like the Gold Coast has struggled with it so far, and Newcastle is even smaller. And that's with the Gold Coast having some pre-existing support for grass roots Australian Rules, and the huge number of Victorian transplants.


I never said it was. Resources in general and mining in particular are capital-intensive, not labour-intensive. But a direct 11% of the entire economy and 90% of port traffic is an awful lot. And that's not counting the many other businesses that are essentially dependent on the mining dollar coming in to have customers. It's not like Newcastle was going well economically between the decline of heavy industry in the 70s and the beginning of the coal boom. In fact unemployment was above 8% in that entire time.


An economy reliant on mining and tourism isn't a diverse one. Think long term. Half the benefit of investing in education is to create future jobs that wouldn't otherwise exist.


Everywhere in Australia has their own local league, some have lasted for ages. But what's important is how popular those leagues are. The Gold Coast had far more support for local clubs than Newcastle ever has, and the Gold Coast has found it tough going in the AFL so far. Newcastle would find it even tougher.
they both have strengths and weaknesses.

Newcastle has population, which will increase, Darwin may or may not increase to a population that can support a AFL club, never mind sponsorship etc.

NT has the highest rate in Australia for playing the game, but has a small pop and huge distances

Newcastle may be potentially better off for sponsorship but is not the main code

Newcastle, Central coast etc is a more strategic position for a 3rd (Sydney/NSW ) club

I think both are 30 year propositions if ever really.

The main driver for growth in WA and NT is mining jobs and everything associated with it, fly in fly out mining with Darwin as a base is the only real driver of house and then job growth
 

Seedsfan

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How much do you think the broadcasting rights would cost if there were 11-games per week ??

There would be gazillions of dollars in the purse to sort out stadiums etc.
No there wouldn’t be money for stadiums as it would come at the expense of grassroots. Who would tune in to watch Newcastle v Wollongong? Nobody so it wouldn’t ad value
 

LordLucifer

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Why are we going around pretending the Central Coast, Sunshine Coast or Wollongong will ever be capable of supporting a successful AFL team? None of them can support a successful full-time team in their traditional #1 sport, what hope does a sport with little popular support have? The Central Coast has by far the least supported A-League team, it's a wonder they haven't given up and moved it to Sydney already. Wollongong couldn't even build a good enough business case to get into the A-League, despite having a team in the previous competition. Not to mention all of these places don't have any oval stadiums of significance, and they're all very decentralised, a series of towns rather than real cities. It'd be like Gold Coast but ten times worse.
I'm going to assume that you don't live in NSW.

I spend a bit of time travelling to certain areas of the state on weekends for work and as an ex-Melbournian, I am completely staggered at how many sets of goalposts are popping up around the place and where, this is not be any sheer accident either.

The game is growing in NSW to such an extent that Alan Jones, a staunch supporter of the rugby union code and an observer of the rugby league code, commented on his no.1 rating breakfast show here in Sydney just the other day, that the AFL is an incredibly professional organisation who make the NRL look second rate.

When you have a person with such a huge listenership and a 'voice of reason' approach making comments like that then you know there is some substance behind it. Added to that, there are always other rugby league stalwarts (eg. Gus Gould, Roy Masters etc) who publically say they are very worried about the growth of AFL in NSW.

There was a team from Wollongong Uni playing in the Syd AFL comp in recent years and the Bulldogs represent Wollongong in the AFL South Coast, the game is growing, please don't bury your head in the sand about it.
 

Rob

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You have to wonder how much of this is an ambit claim by the NT govt to try to get the AFL to pull finger and set something up development-wise. With the Thunder gone there’s not much for young players up there.
What's the AFL expected to do? They would already fund their junior rep teams.

The only thing that might be of benefit - and this isn't really on the AFL - is if they broadcast the AFLNT on Fox Footy in the off season. A half decent professional production might get an audience on Friday and/or Saturday night. Not a big one, but bigger than the A League or NBL.
 

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Johnny Bananas

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I'm going to assume that you don't live in NSW.

I spend a bit of time travelling to certain areas of the state on weekends for work and as an ex-Melbournian, I am completely staggered at how many sets of goalposts are popping up around the place and where, this is not be any sheer accident either.

The game is growing in NSW to such an extent that Alan Jones, a staunch supporter of the rugby union code and an observer of the rugby league code, commented on his no.1 rating breakfast show here in Sydney just the other day, that the AFL is an incredibly professional organisation who make the NRL look second rate.

When you have a person with such a huge listenership and a 'voice of reason' approach making comments like that then you know there is some substance behind it. Added to that, there are always other rugby league stalwarts (eg. Gus Gould, Roy Masters etc) who publically say they are very worried about the growth of AFL in NSW.

There was a team from Wollongong Uni playing in the Syd AFL comp in recent years and the Bulldogs represent Wollongong in the AFL South Coast, the game is growing, please don't bury your head in the sand about it.
That's all well and good, but it doesn't contradict my points. Australian Rules may have grown in leaps and bounds, but it's coming off a very low base. It hasn't bedded in as a traditional sport in NSW or QLD over decades, and those places are still decentralised areas that do not have oval stadiums of size and significance. I'm sure it'll continue to grow strongly at the grass roots level, but we're talking about the potential draw of a professional team here.
 

RedV3x

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It hasn't bedded in as a traditional sport in NSW or QLD over decades,
Australian Rules Football preceded rugby league in NSW with a strong league. Queensland has has strong Australian Rules Football representation for ages. When they included sports participation in the census there wasn't much difference between rugby league and Australian Rules Football and then rugby union and soccer.

It hasn't bedded in as a traditional sport in NSW or QLD over decades, and those places are still decentralised areas that do not have oval stadiums of size and significance. I'm sure it'll continue to grow strongly at the grass roots level, but we're talking about the potential draw of a professional team here.
those places are still decentralised areas
Which is a definite plus.

that do not have oval stadiums of size and significance.
Ha ha ha. Where do you think they play Australian Rules Football a.t.m.
 

Johnny Bananas

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Australian Rules Football preceded rugby league in NSW with a strong league.
Yes, a century ago and in Sydney only. My post was specifically referring to Newcastle and Wollongong.

Queensland has has strong Australian Rules Football representation for ages. When they included sports participation in the census there wasn't much difference between rugby league and Australian Rules Football and then rugby union and soccer.
Wonderful. That has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with their ability to sustain professional teams.

Which is a definite plus.
Why?

Ha ha ha. Where do you think they play Australian Rules Football a.t.m.
In suburban ovals, which are not of size and significance in the context of holding crowds for professional sporting fixtures. Newcastle No. 1 Sports Ground, the main oval stadium, has a piddlingly small grandstand and would require significant investment without having the regular fixtures to get value out of such an investment. And every other oval will have even less infrastructure.

Despite many instances of facts and reports proving how strong Australian Rules Football is in NSW and Qld you simply debt it as an unsubstantiated mantra.
You can post as many graphics as you like, it doesn't mean professional Australian rules has bedded in as a dominant sport. I can find great participation statistics for soccer and basketball too but I wouldn't call them a dominant sport professionally anywhere in Australia.
 

RedV3x

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Yes, a century ago and in Sydney only. My post was specifically referring to Newcastle and Wollongong.
Again you're denying history. Australian Rules Football spread through out the colonies.
Newcastle is home to the longest continuous Australian sporting trophy - the Black Diamond Cup.
Both Newcastle and Wollongong AFLs have been around a long time.

Because both Newcastle and Wollongong could potentially support an AFL team.


You can post as many graphics as you like, it doesn't mean
You'll admit to the facts that professional Australian rules is bedded in as a dominant sport.

I can find great participation statistics for soccer and basketball too but I wouldn't call them a dominant sport professionally anywhere in Australia.
That's because you changed your wording from "dominant traditional sport to" "dominant professional sport".
but that only prolongs the agony for you because we all know just how dominant Australian Football is professionally.
 

Johnny Bananas

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Again you're denying history. Australian Rules Football spread through out the colonies.
Newcastle is home to the longest continuous Australian sporting trophy - the Black Diamond Cup.
Both Newcastle and Wollongong AFLs have been around a long time.
No, you said "strong league". The Black Diamond Cup wasn't a strong league, else it would have been as popular or more popular than rugby league in Newcastle. But it wasn't, Newcastle has been a rugby league dominated area for more than a century.

I'm not denying any history, and I have never said any of these regions didn't possess an Australian Rules league. But it isn't the dominant sport, and as with Newcastle, it hasn't been for more than a century.

Because both Newcastle and Wollongong could potentially support an AFL team.
Playing in what stadium?

You'll admit to the facts that professional Australian rules is bedded in as a dominant sport.
Where and how? What are these "facts" that you keep mentioning but never actually expand on? The graphic you posted was to do with grassroots participation, not the professional or even semi-professional level. And even the participation was measured across the state as a whole rather than the Newcastle and Wollongong areas in particular.

That's because you changed your wording from "dominant traditional sport to" "dominant professional sport".
but that only prolongs the agony for you because we all know just how dominant Australian Football is professionally.
What agony? Are you projecting again? Mind you, you're so thick that you believe I'm a rugby league troll just because I disagree with you on a couple of points, so I can see how you're getting so easily confused. Dominant traditional sport and dominant professional sport are essentially the same thing: which is the most popular sport over decades, that has been burned into the culture and consciousness of the area. You're seriously trying to argue that Newcastle and Wollongong have been traditional Aussie Rules areas for the last century rather than rugby league areas, which shows you don't have the grasp of the facts that you claim. You'd be better off trying to argue the sky is pink, you'd have more to stand on there.

Tell me, if they're such dyed-in-the-wool traditional Aussie Rules areas, why has Newcastle only ever produced one player who made the big time in the last 120 years? And even he played rugby league growing up, and only continued playing Aussie Rules in his teens due to the resources provided by the Sydney Swans academy. Why has Wollongong not produced a single player who made the big time in the last 120 years?
 

RedV3x

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you said "strong league".
The Black Diamond Cup is still a strong league and growing.


I'm not denying any history,
You always have said that only the dominant sport is relevent.
When we all know that AFL is big.

Playing in what stadium?
Really? You seriously believe a stadium is a problem.

Where and how? What are these "facts" that you keep mentioning.
FFS you acknowlege the participation figures and the professional level is even more straight forward.
AFL simply kills every other professional sport in Australia.

What agony?
The agony of you realizing that AFL is much stronger than you're willing to admit.
The agony of realizing that AFL is getting stronger by the day and NRL weaker by the day.
Times change. Once there was no AFL teams in NSW or Qld now there are two AFL teams in Sydney and two AFL teams in Qld.
Newcastle and Wollongong have strong competitions - they are something to build on.
Do you understand that? Australian Football has a basis for growing even stronger.
The AFL is not trying to convert idiots like you who pursue NRL - that would be senseless.
The AFL is growing the game to people who are interested in an exciting, free-flowing game and sometimes physical game.
 

Johnny Bananas

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The Black Diamond Cup is still a strong league and growing.
Yeah, it's so strong that it doesn't even have that name anymore. Clearly the marketing wasn't very strong. Might be time to stop making a fool of yourself on this one.

You always have said that only the dominant sport is relevent.
When we all know that AFL is big.
And is it dominant in Newcastle or Wollongong? This is your contention, sadly the facts don't agree with you.

Really? You seriously believe a stadium is a problem.
Yes. Prove it isn't one.

FFS you acknowlege the participation figures and the professional level is even more straight forward.
No it isn't.

AFL simply kills every other professional sport in Australia.
In its heartland, certainly. You seem to want to extrapolate that to every nook and cranny of the country, ignoring the facts on the ground.

The agony of you realizing that AFL is much stronger than you're willing to admit.
The agony of realizing that AFL is getting stronger by the day and NRL weaker by the day.
Times change. Once there was no AFL teams in NSW or Qld now there are two AFL teams in Sydney and two AFL teams in Qld.
Newcastle and Wollongong have strong competitions - they are something to build on.
Do you understand that? Australian Football has a basis for growing even stronger.
The AFL is not trying to convert idiots like you who pursue NRL - that would be senseless.
The AFL is growing the game to people who are interested in an exciting, free-flowing game and sometimes physical game.
You're a clown! You're fighting a crusade against some non-existent NRL fan who lives in the depths of your imagination!
 
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RedV3x

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You're fighting a crusade against some
NRL clown fan.
Who desperately hangs importance on a name change of an organisation.
Who lives in the past continuously hanging onto the word dominant and completely ignoring the substantial growth of AFL.
Who thinks a stadium will not be built if required.
Who completely ignores the participation of AFL throughout Australia.
Who completely ignores the presence of AFL professionalism across Australia.
Who desperately hangs on a notion of "heartland" where it has almost disappeared for NRL.
Who cannot argue logically so has to resort to personal attacks and emoticons - the mark of a pathetic troll.
Get some new material FFS.

We're talking AFL possibilities here. For AFL possibilities to become probabilities we all know (well most of us) what's required.
 

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