Official Man U - Liverpool thread

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Karanicolas

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#29
Moomba v. Shinboners Debate

I tend to agree with Moomba*, in that back in the pre-Champions League days clubs were far more even in terms of money and attracting players.

That meant that a lot of clubs were in a position to win the European Cup. Nowadays, there are only 4-6 clubs that have genuine claims.

And what hurts is that Liverpool is not one of them despite have a great European history. But other great Europen clubs such as Ajax are also in the same position. This I believe in the end will cause the European Cup to lose a lot of its appeal.




(funny that, given that we haven't done much in Europe since the ban)
 

Nandrolone Stam

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#30
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R:E

Originally posted by Shinboners
You may have played the CHAMPIONS of the respective leagues, but then again, I'd much rather face the Danish or Polish champions
I wouldn't mock the Polish champions or placegetters too much. They're about to f*ck over the Massives (and yes we know how MASSIVE they really are) :p
 

Shinboners

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#31
Re: Moomba v. Shinboners Debate

Originally posted by Karanicolas
And what hurts is that Liverpool is not one of them despite have a great European history. But other great Europen clubs such as Ajax are also in the same position. This I believe in the end will cause the European Cup to lose a lot of its appeal.
I reckon the European Cup has already lost a lot of its appeal.

Under the old format, you had to be the nation's champion team (or the Cup holder) to qualify - the fact that you didn't get many chances (and Liverpool being the dominant English club) meant that qualifying was something special. Now you can finish as low as fourth and still qualify. The fact that some clubs will qualify every year means that it loses that significance.

Speaking of the old days, I reckon it's the same with the Premiership. I was having a chat to a friend and we both agreed that it would have been so much better if the champion team of England received the old trophy (the one they use for Division One) rather than the ugly one they designed for the Premiership. It might be a minor quibble, but the old trophy was the one that was won by the Busby Babes and the Busby sides of the 60s and by those Liverpool sides under Shankly, Fagan and Paisley, the Wolves sides of the 50s, by the Huddersfield and Arsenal hattrick sides of the 30s, the trophy that Don Revie tried to bribe his way to in the 70s....it's the trophy with the history behind it.


(funny that, given that we haven't done much in Europe since the ban)
Perhaps it's karma at work.
 
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#32
Spot on Shinboners.

The sooner people admit that the bloated European competitions have done more harm than good to the game, the better for all. What the expanded CL and UEFA Cup have done is devalue European competition and created considerable fixture congestion. And everything else resulting from that. This used to be the European Champions Cup, now it's just the Chumps League- Champions + Runners Up + 3rd/4th place teams.

My solution would be to return the European club competitions to what they were, before 1997- only one team from each country in the European Cup, perhaps make it knock-out all the way too.

Quite simply, if it wasn't broken, then why did they try to fix it? :rolleyes:
 

Shinboners

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#33
Originally posted by David Votoupal
Spot on Shinboners.

The sooner people admit that the bloated European competitions have done more harm than good to the game, the better for all.

<snip>

Quite simply, if it wasn't broken, then why did they try to fix it? :rolleyes:
I think most fans feel that the new European format is screwed.

When they first brought in the group stages, Red Issue (and I assume other fanzines) pointed out that the only reason for it was that it resulted in more games for television. When United won in '99, the fans chanted "We're here because we won f*ck all" at every game.

When they brought in the rule allowing 2nd place teams to enter, the clubs that forced the rule change (the G14 were threatening a breakaway "European Premier League") didn't even bother to hide the fact that it was about money, not the integrity of the competition.
 
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#34
I really hope recent events and the current financial crisis will force FIFA and UEFA to come to their senses. You can see that Leeds gambled big time on regular CL qualification, and look what happened. Same thing with a lot of clubs in Italy who spend regularly because of the win at all costs mentality. Some clubs do get what's coming to them, IMHO.

I did just think up a blueprint for reform of the game at club and international level worldwide, I'll post it soon ;)
 
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#36
On another note, here's some food for thought. The Italian Super Cup (curtain-raiser to the new season a la Community Shield) was held last year in Libya, and I heard they wanted to do it in New York this year though I'm not sure if they held it there.

Imagine if UEFA would decide, for example, to hold a European final outside Europe. Could you imagine a European Cup final at the MCG? I for one would love that, especially if it's Everton in the final!

Which only makes me wonder what could have been, if Everton did take part in the European Cup following our majestic '85 title triumph. Were it not for Heysel, we could well have gone on to dominate the competition. Too bad some morons caused the disaster and ended up having England punished for it. Oh what could have been :( :mad:
 

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Shinboners

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#37
Originally posted by David Votoupal
Imagine if UEFA would decide, for example, to hold a European final outside Europe. Could you imagine a European Cup final at the MCG? I for one would love that, especially if it's Everton in the final!
But wearn't we just discussing the loss of tradition just a few posts ago?

Surely sending a European final outside of Europe would only be done for the money and totally screw the fans who follow the clubs.

Which only makes me wonder what could have been, if Everton did take part in the European Cup following our majestic '85 title triumph. Were it not for Heysel, we could well have gone on to dominate the competition. Too bad some morons caused the disaster and ended up having England punished for it. Oh what could have been :( :mad:
The chances are that Everton would have at least made the final, and probably won it - the English clubs were that dominant. Hell, even Aston Villa won the European Cup in '81.

There used to be good relations between Everton and Liverpool, but with Heysel costing Everton them their chance in the European Cup, it's been bad blood ever since.
 

GoalsFrom50Out

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#38
Re: Re: Re: Re: R:E

Originally posted by Karanicolas
If my memory serves me right, this is really a Fairs Cup, not a EUFA Cup.:D
It's the same trophy.

"No! The European Cup and Champion's League are two different trophies!" whine the ManUre fans ...
 

Shinboners

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#41
Originally posted by GoalsFrom50Out
You've obviously never met some of the glory hunters that go on about the treble, then.

And why so shocked? All United fans are morons.
You still haven't shown me a post where a United fan said that the European Cup and Champions League trophies were different.
 
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#45
Originally posted by Shinboners
But wearn't we just discussing the loss of tradition just a few posts ago?

Surely sending a European final outside of Europe would only be done for the money and totally screw the fans who follow the clubs


Perhaps, though if it were done in Australia it might help raise the profile of this game here. If it were an English club against, say, an Italian or Greek club there would be no problems at all getting attention here.

The chances are that Everton would have at least made the final, and probably won it - the English clubs were that dominant. Hell, even Aston Villa won the European Cup in '81.

There used to be good relations between Everton and Liverpool, but with Heysel costing Everton them their chance in the European Cup, it's been bad blood ever since.
Very, very true. Actually I don't think it's all that bad, since the Merseyside derby is the only match anywhere where fans aren't segregated at all! Still, I have plenty of reasons for hating Liverpool- even if I believe they're not exclusively to blame for Heysel (remember, there were extremists intent on causing trouble anywhere and had no interest in football at all)- and yes relations between the two sets of fans everywhere (even online, from my experiences) have generally soured in recent years. And I'll admit that for these reasons, I've never hated Liverpool as much as I hate them now.
 

GOALden Hawk

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Thread starter #46
Yes, no doubt the rivalry between Liverpool and Everton is a strong one, but as pointed out, it's one of the few derbies where fans aren't segregated. I asked a few people about it when I was in Liverpool and most agreed although it's not what it was, the atmosphere and hatred is nothing compared to a Liverpool - Man U game.
 
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#47
Well that's a Manc vs Scouser thing really. A lot of Man City fans hate Everton more than anyone except United, but that's something dating back to 1990 when Howard Kendall left them to back to us. Some of their fans enjoy deriding us, which is why it hurt when we got hammered at Maine Road in 2000/01, which was to me one of the darkest moment in all the years I've followed Everton :( :mad:

Unlike other rivalries, the divisions in the city of Liverpool are not clear cut- even families are mixed, more or less. Something you probably won't find in Sheffield or Manchester, but I could be wrong.

But the amount of rubbish some Liverpool "fans" have given me in recent years has hardened my feelings towards them a great deal, so yes I've never been one to conceal my disdain towards LFC and at least I'm being honest about it!
 

BT

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#49
Originally posted by David Votoupal


Unlike other rivalries, the divisions in the city of Liverpool are not clear cut- even families are mixed, more or less. Something you probably won't find in Sheffield or Manchester, but I could be wrong.
It does happen in Manchester, but it's not that common.

Aye we hate Kendall, but I've not got any huge gripe with Everton. Love to win Lancashire Derbies, but it'd be more Kendall that we hate.

I'm with Windy Hill, 2-2 hope it's a great game & that ya's kill each other! :D

Scholes still injured?
 
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#50
Well you could take Kendall out of Everton, but you were never going to take the Everton out of Kendall. Anyway, I feel that bringing Kendall back for second and third spells wasn't a good idea at all. I'll always be grateful for his wonderful playing career with us, and the halycon 80s, but what happened with him afterwards is best left unsaid.

I do know of fellow Evertonians getting abused when walking through Manchester, and more specifically Moss Side. Taunts of "5-0" and all! Hopefully it will happen less as Everton start beating City, and seeing your new stadium looks to be based in a better part of town.
 
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