2nds Official Swans Academy Thread (Player News and Discussion)

[Opts]

I'd just take them all Masey & fill our list with NSW kids. At least the go home factor is a non issue & we can rest assuered whatever development we put into them is not all for nothing.
Load up until in 5 years we have 70% of our list local boys.

And be a team full of lemons? NSW AFL isn't good enough for that yet.

 

[Opts]

I had a very interesting chat with someone inside the Academy last week and to say he is frustrated is a major understatement. His view is that not only other clubs but the Swans themselves are far too conservative about taking a chance on Academy kids.

He genuinely believes that we have at least half a dozen kids this year who are worth at least selecting as rookies but the Swans, for all their talk, would rather take a punt on a Victorian kid of the same or even lesser ability.

I’ve always thought that the Academy is only about taking the absolute elite players - the Henney’s, Mills’ and Blakey’s. Anything less than that and they won’t take the gamble. The guy’s comments confirm that for me.

I would assume that this academy person knows the academy prospects very well but probably has very little knowledge on Victorian kids so I would doubt that it's a balanced view.

 

[RUNVS]

The problem with the academy kids, at least from what I can tell is that there is not a lot of scope for improvement. I mean look at Heeney and Mills, both started as prized recruits, entered the AFL at a very high level for a first year player and then both of them sort of plateaued very quickly and neither really improved much after the 3rd year. I think the academy can get the best out of the players earlier, but as a result we are seeing them at closer to their best, and there is not as much scope for improvement compared to players who did not have the benefit of an academy.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

The problem with the academy kids, at least from what I can tell is that there is not a lot of scope for improvement. I mean look at Heeney and Mills, both started as prized recruits, entered the AFL at a very high level for a first year player and then both of them sort of plateaued very quickly and neither really improved much after the 3rd year. I think the academy can get the best out of the players earlier, but as a result we are seeing them at closer to their best, and there is not as much scope for improvement compared to players who did not have the benefit of an academy.

Both are also not being played in the position where they excelled at.

 

[robbieando]

I guess if we list the Vic kids that didn't make it in those same years, the list would be much longer.

Yes the list is much longer, but the list of those that make it is also much longer as well. When you compare it in percentage terms with the academy they easily out perform them even though the kids we have got from Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania have been drafted later and in some case unheard of before the draft.

But all of that doesn't invalidate the idea that academy players who aren't elite aren't getting a go with the club which is the idea that is being pushed in the above posts and is a complete fallacy.

Some people have got to get the idea out of their head that the academy is there to promote the academy players over junior players in other states. Its a recruiting tool that is a benefit for the club in that it helps us sort out which players in our zone are capable of AFL football and which aren't, but also has a side benefit for NSW football that long term will help the game.

Plenty won't make the grade, but its not up to the Swans to draft them if they aren't good enough.

 

[DavyRed]

I would assume that this academy person knows the academy prospects very well but probably has very little knowledge on Victorian kids so I would doubt that it's a balanced view.

Well given that I’m not willing to divulge his identity you can of course assume whatever you want.

 

[DavyRed]

Yes the list is much longer, but the list of those that make it is also much longer as well. When you compare it in percentage terms with the academy they easily out perform them even though the kids we have got from Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania have been drafted later and in some case unheard of before the draft.

But all of that doesn't invalidate the idea that academy players who aren't elite aren't getting a go with the club which is the idea that is being pushed in the above posts and is a complete fallacy.

Some people have got to get the idea out of their head that the academy is there to promote the academy players over junior players in other states. Its a recruiting tool that is a benefit for the club in that it helps us sort out which players in our zone are capable of AFL football and which aren't, but also has a side benefit for NSW football that long term will help the game.

Plenty won't make the grade, but its not up to the Swans to draft them if they aren't good enough.

Apologies if my original post was poorly phrased (banging out posts during quick coffee breaks at work). It’s not that the Swans never go for the Academy boy, clearly we do on occasion, it’s that there is a view that when there are two boys of roughly equal ability it’s the inter-state boy who will more often than not get selected. Of course, any judgement on that ‘equal ability’ is subjective so there will always be potential disagreements there.

Re your last point, I honestly don’t know of many Academy parents, current or past, who seriously think that a sub-standard Academy player should get drafted over a better inter-state player (well, maybe apart from literally only a handful that I’ve encountered who erroneously thought their precious babies were the next GAJ).

Edit: interestingly I’ve found if any parent does get a bit too full of themselves about their boys perceived superiority it tends to be parents of the younger kids. Usually as they get exposed to the rep football and progress through U16s, 17s and 18s most realise exactly where their boy sits in the pecking order, however reluctant they are forced to come to that realisation

 

[Ralphyboy]

Couple of points:

1. The swans retain access to academy kids for I think 3 years including their draft year. Accordingly they can continue to incubate them at neafl level at Canberra or Uni. Not great for the player but great for sydney as it enables them to load up with interstate players whilst stockpiling academy kids in nds or neafl.
2. Also the Cat B spots enable the swans to pick up academy or international completely outside any draft system and with the smaller salary outside the salary cap. The swans have been using these spots for Bell, Brown, Wicks etc who become cheap players they can roll the dice on and see if they develop.

As a consequence of this unless an academy player is a top draft pick, with serious competition the swans will use cat B for Academy. As there are only 3 spots this makes things pretty limited unfortunately.

 

[DavyRed]

Couple of points:

1. The swans retain access to academy kids for I think 3 years including their draft year. Accordingly they can continue to incubate them at neafl level at Canberra or Uni. Not great for the player but great for sydney as it enables them to load up with interstate players whilst stockpiling academy kids in nds or neafl.
2. Also the Cat B spots enable the swans to pick up academy or international completely outside any draft system and with the smaller salary outside the salary cap. The swans have been using these spots for Bell, Brown, Wicks etc who become cheap players they can roll the dice on and see if they develop.

As a consequence of this unless an academy player is a top draft pick, with serious competition the swans will use cat B for Academy. As there are only 3 spots this makes things pretty limited unfortunately.

Thanks, can you expand on point 1 as I don’t think I’ve heard about that (or I’ve just misunderstood). Are you saying that an Academy boy who then goes to, say, Uni can be picked up by the Swans after his first or second year there? If so, how - do they get first choice, as a Cat B rookie?

 

[Ralphyboy]

Thanks, can you expand on point 1 as I don’t think I’ve heard about that (or I’ve just misunderstood). Are you saying that an Academy boy who then goes to, say, Uni can be picked up by the Swans after his first or second year there? If so, how - do they get first choice, as a Cat B rookie?

Yes, let's say Sydney wants to pick up Josh Stern who has had a great year at Uni as a small forward. All they need to do is file the cat b papers with the AFL at the right time and he is drafted.

 

[TheMase]

Maybe they should increase the amount of category b player spots to entice Academy clubs to list more players from their academies.

 

[robbieando]

1. The swans retain access to academy kids for I think 3 years including their draft year.

No we don't. Once they leave the academy we lose any priority access, we keep access to them via NSW Zone Selection under the Cat B Rookie List. This is how we gained Sam Murray and Harry Cunningham from the GWS Academy and Dane Rampe as a local.

Also the Cat B spots enable the swans to pick up academy or international completely outside any draft system and with the smaller salary outside the salary cap.

Cat B rookies still have to pass though the National Draft, so they don't pass completely outside the draft system. Only International selections get the free pass. Also rookie listed players are paid the same now as first year draftees so there isn't a cost saving benefit anymore

 

[robbieando]

Yes, let's say Sydney wants to pick up Josh Stern who has had a great year at Uni as a small forward. All they need to do is file the cat b papers with the AFL at the right time and he is drafted.

Still has to pass via the National Draft and if he isn't drafted via that route he can go to either us or GWS as a NSW Zone Selection as a Cat B. We don't hold his exclusive rights anymore

 

[DavyRed]

Maybe they should increase the amount of category b player spots to entice Academy clubs to list more players from their academies.

Good idea but wouldn’t you then have to also increase the salary cap to make room for them? I’m sure we all know how some of the other clubs would respond to that (unless they were able to do the same with their NGA boys)!

 

[Ticky009]

Here’s the link to the U17 GF curtain raiser game featuring Cambell & Gulden.
i know some people were asking for a link.

 

[Cadillac]

haha, god that is going to wind people up.

I thought Hollands and Phillips looked like the best players for the first 3 quarters, i didn't watch the last quarter. Hollands looked a standout though.

I wasn't blown away by anything i saw from jamarra ugle.

Hollands was huge. Campbell was incisive.

Probably worst game ugle played this year

Ugle-Hagan is a key forward who spent the game playing off half back. Was strange that they played him there

 

[Wolftone]

Then northern states are working harder at growing the game faster than the traditional AFL states, yet we get frowned upon for having first dibs on any rare talent that may come out of it. So after 10 years of funding & resources & perhaps 6000 kids trying out (guesstimate) in that time, we have Heeney, Mills & Blakey.

Yeah and the AFL only contribute $250,000 from the development funds. Yet they managed to give Norf $1,000,000 for their North Tassie Academy. They also managed to screw us with the Indigenous Academies $2,500,000 and only Vic Clubs benefit.

On ANE-LX2J using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Wolftone]

How many former academy players are playing in the Afl at the moment not including Sydney. That shows changes need to be made to all aspects of the program.

Quite a few actually. Some notable ones are Doughal Howard. How GWS got that one sooo wrong is beyond me. This bloke is a great player. Harry Cunningham, more a Scholarship player, but aligned to GWS Academy. Heeney, Mills and Blakey we know, Zac Williams, Steel, Finlayson, Hopper, Kennedy, Himmelberg, Setterfield, Perryman, Cumming, Spago, Brander, Kozitske, Shipley, Wicks, Naismith, Rampe, Bell. That is NSW alone.

Queenslanders; Zorko (Scholarship), Hipwood, Andrews, Ballendon, Payne, Archie Smith, McFadyen, Bowes, Harrow (Scholarship player), Sexton, Wellar, Crossley, Joyce & Graham.

That's just a couple. The Swans Academy is going to take longer because we have not got any of the traditional Aussie Rules areas like Albury or Wagga. The Queensland teams are in a similar position to us but Sun's should be able to produce plenty because of all the Mexicans moving up there from Melbourne.



On ANE-LX2J using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Wolftone]

But the fact is it is not.
Players are not viewed as their traditional afl state counterparts are.
They fly under the radar for old boys schools and TAC cup players.
Even the clubs overlook their own in the attempt to find players.
They have a breeding ground of players who are skilled and tough. Who play against men from 16 or 17, but who seem to be forgotten in the attempt to turn a Vic kid into something special in 3 years time.
It's crazy. But the best path to the AFL is to head south to be noticed, because the Northern academies seem more interested in what their southern talent scouts see then what is right under their own noses.
And if the Allies coaches and selectors keep picking teams of individuals rather then a team to win, you will continue to see kids slide off draft boards like this year because of the beatings they take.
Yes, the Northern academies are improving the quality of AFL in the local comps, but they are really not transferring that into players who play in The AFL.

Swans Academy played it's allocated matches against the NAB Cup sides and won them all. We were a unit. That is the re ason there were no standouts. The NSW Academy system recognises teamwork not the individual.

On ANE-LX2J using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Blood red]

Swans Academy played it's allocated matches against the NAB Cup sides and won them all. We were a unit. That is the re ason there were no standouts. The NSW Academy system recognises teamwork not the individual.

On ANE-LX2J using BigFooty.com mobile app

That is my point.
Played team footy, but Sheehan and co can't look at that. They focus on accumulators.
Sad to think that the ultimate goal is to play an unselfish game in the AFL, but are not rewarded for that in recognition.

 

[RUNVS]

Here’s the link to the U17 GF curtain raiser game featuring Cambell & Gulden.
i know some people were asking for a link.

Far from a comprehensive list but

5.36 - Wonderful kick from Campbell
6.13 - Another kick from Campbell that almost comes off
6.20 - 45m goal Campbell kicks with ease
37.04 - Easy goal for Gulden
1:10.20 - Campbell. Beautiful 40m goal around his body off one step
1:15.53 - Campbell does a long handball to a teammate, runs, gets a handball back and kicks the ball outside the 50 on the run for a goal.

 

[BloodySwan]

Any academy players likely to be drafted this year? Luke Parks & Hamish Ellen seem to be the two highest rated players for this crop

 

[Chaisa]

Any academy players likely to be drafted this year? Luke Parks & Hamish Ellen seem to be the two highest rated players for this crop

If any are it'll only be as a Cat B I think and I think we're at our Cat B limit unless Bell or Wicks move to Cat A/get upgraded.

Next year is the big kahuna in this regard.

 

[Blood red]

Hmmm.
19's squad has some big omissions, it would seem.
Wonder why?

 

[barry fu]

Hmmm.
19's squad has some big omissions, it would seem.
Wonder why?

Go on Br.