OK, how is Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc worse than Israel??

^Eagle^

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The Case For Israel by Allan Derm...??? inspired this post and the ideas expressed in this post are generally the idea of the book

The way people like Bluemark, etc are acting, they make it seem like Israel have commited the World's worst crimes. This is because i have never seen any of the anti-Israel posters on this board say political stances against things like the Ukranian election, the fact that Jews in Saudi Arabia have to mark their houses with black paint(what does that remind me of.....?) as passionately as you bag Israel. For a while, i have considered that anti-Israel means anti-semetic. but it does not. what anti-semetic means is someone who bags Israel, and barely says anything about other countries who have far worse human rights records, and overall international relations than Israel. This is anti-semetic.

I know, some of you will tell me that i'm changing the subject, because "we're talking about Israel here".... A harvard president in the 1920's once expelled Jews because "they cheat". When someone pointed out the fact that non-Jews cheat too, he said "You're changing the subject. We're talking about Jews here.".

So, bluemark, blueboy83, bombers 2003, MGREG, lestat, etc and anyone else i didnt mention, let me ask you this. What have Israel done to deserve such worse condemnation than the Zimbabwe gov't(who tear land away from whites and give it to blacks), Ukranian gov't(who rigged their 'democratic' elections), Saudi Arabian gov't(who make Jews paint part of their houses black), the French gov't(who govern a country in which people can 'practice their religion freely', but aren't allowed to wear head scarves in government schools), all of the Arabic countries whose human rights records disallow their female members to be liable members of the country), Pakistani gov't(who sentenced a girl to gang rape for cheating on her husband) and other numerous countries with such horrific human rights records. Please back up your claims with FACTS, not falsehood, and SUBSTANCE not slogans.
 

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Tim56

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#2
I just read the book, it's by Alan Dershowitz. Articulates the arguments in favour of the existence of the Jewish state beautifully, and shoots down many of the falsehoods often perpetrated by those who are anti-Israel.
 

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#3
^Eagle^ said:
The Case For Israel by Allan Derm...??? inspired this post and the ideas expressed in this post are generally the idea of the book

The way people like Bluemark, etc are acting, they make it seem like Israel have commited the World's worst crimes. This is because i have never seen any of the anti-Israel posters on this board say political stances against things like the Ukranian election, the fact that Jews in Saudi Arabia have to mark their houses with black paint(what does that remind me of.....?) as passionately as you bag Israel. For a while, i have considered that anti-Israel means anti-semetic. but it does not. what anti-semetic means is someone who bags Israel, and barely says anything about other countries who have far worse human rights records, and overall international relations than Israel. This is anti-semetic.

I know, some of you will tell me that i'm changing the subject, because "we're talking about Israel here".... A harvard president in the 1920's once expelled Jews because "they cheat". When someone pointed out the fact that non-Jews cheat too, he said "You're changing the subject. We're talking about Jews here.".

So, bluemark, blueboy83, bombers 2003, MGREG, lestat, etc and anyone else i didnt mention, let me ask you this. What have Israel done to deserve such worse condemnation than the Zimbabwe gov't(who tear land away from whites and give it to blacks), Ukranian gov't(who rigged their 'democratic' elections), Saudi Arabian gov't(who make Jews paint part of their houses black), the French gov't(who govern a country in which people can 'practice their religion freely', but aren't allowed to wear head scarves in government schools), all of the Arabic countries whose human rights records disallow their female members to be liable members of the country), Pakistani gov't(who sentenced a girl to gang rape for cheating on her husband) and other numerous countries with such horrific human rights records. Please back up your claims with FACTS, not falsehood, and SUBSTANCE not slogans.
So what your saying is that because in the last 8 months Israel has been in the news a million times more than the Ukraine we have to ignore the Israeli situation?

I understand the frustration you must feel and agree what those countries do is abhorric..maybe GWB should go after Nth Korea and Zimbabwe and all those countries that have evil dictators and WMDs..or dont you agree? The world is a large place and as I said Israel has been more in focus than most. Also as a bastion of America in a Muslim dominated area we have a greater concern that the area could explode more quickly than a gang rape in Pakistan would concern us.
 

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#4
Current Israeli government are bully boys. Israelis should be able to emphathise with persecution - and not get their thrills by persecuting others.

Whilst not condoning what goes on in Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia or Iran, Israel is much more of a world danger due to the number of nuclear weapons they have in their possession. Like Bush and Saddam, Sharon is a loose cannon.
 
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There's nothing excusable about Zimbabwe, Saudi, Iran etc, but that's no justification for Israel to commit human rights abuses. The fact that you even raise this question just goes to show that you approve of human-rights abuses. You are sum and you know it.

Why do we talk more about Israel? Because the other countries are pariah states, we all know that that democracy and human rights are lacking in those places. In Israel, we see a developed nation, with a strong sense of democracy and a very western outlook, much like Australia or any other western country. Because we associate with them so closely means that it hits home harder. We all know that Israel should know better.
 

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#8
Freo Big Fella said:
What happened to Liberal Democracies being paragons of freedom, virtue and light?(Sorry, directed more at Jane than you Tim)
If you can find a better political system than liberal democracy I'm all ears. Anyway, contemporary liberal democracy has created unparalleled levels of wealth and freedom.
 

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#9
Tim56 said:
That is an outrageous double standard bordering on racism.
I disagree. Countries such as the USA and Israel often take the moral "high ground".

If I see torture , humiliation of prisoners etc from a terrorist group or Saddam, it's just what I expect from such low-lifes. It is really disturbing however to see things such as Abu Ghraib when these acts are carried out by US personnel. A western civilised, democratic society should 'know better", should try and hold the moral high ground and not sink to the depths of its enemies.
 

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#10
^Eagle^ said:
The Case For Israel by Allan Derm...??? inspired this post and the ideas expressed in this post are generally the idea of the book
Oh please, the fact that you were “inspired” to post by such a book is telling..

If you wish to read a book with a pro-Israeli perspective which has not been tainted by allegations of plagiarism, may I suggest you purchase/loan “Right to Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's Wars” by Yaacov Lozowick. Otherwise you might as well go straight to Dershowitz’s source and read Joan Peter’s “From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine”.
 

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#11
Tim56 said:
That is an outrageous double standard bordering on racism.
Why Tim?

Surely if we believe Israel is a proper liberal democracy, we'd reasonably expect it not to persecute those living under its dominion - which at the moment includes the Palestinians.

Thus we "know" Israel should know better.
 

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#12
Tim56 said:
I just read the book, it's by Alan Dershowitz. Articulates the arguments in favour of the existence of the Jewish state beautifully, and shoots down many of the falsehoods often perpetrated by those who are anti-Israel.
Israel has absolutely no right to exist. Neither does Lapland, Macedonia, Kurdistan or even England for that matter. I am sick to death of this right to exist argument that both sides go on about.

If you really believe that Israel has a right to exist based on the happenings two thousand years ago then shouldnt the Levant be Christian, the Greeks in charge of Anatolia and Constantinople etc etc

After all the injustices the jews have faced and constantly reminded us about you would think when the boot is on the other foot they would make an effort to behave. Yet their treatment of others is extremely average, their terrorist efforts against the Brits showed them up as hypocritical pricks willing to engage in Gestapo type tactics and murdering those Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai was just another example of why they are criticised. If they are going to beat the crap out of the Palestinians then get on with it but stop all the bleating about all these historical injustices and current hatred of jews as it is doing their argument no good at all.
 
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Admin #13
Tim56 said:
That is an outrageous double standard bordering on racism.

I laughed when I read I read your reply.

Pray tell. How exactly do you equate racism from my saying we expect better of a liberal democracy such as Israel?
 

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#14
medusala said:
.


After all the injustices the jews have faced and constantly reminded us about you would think when the boot is on the other foot they would make an effort to behave. Yet their treatment of others is extremely average, their terrorist efforts against the Brits showed them up as hypocritical pricks willing to engage in Gestapo type tactics and murdering those Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai was just another example of why they are criticised. If they are going to beat the crap out of the Palestinians then get on with it but stop all the bleating about all these historical injustices and current hatred of jews as it is doing their argument no good at all.
Believe it or not I agree with Medusala here.
 

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#15
^Eagle^ said:
I know, some of you will tell me that i'm changing the subject, because "we're talking about Israel here".... A harvard president in the 1920's once expelled Jews because "they cheat". When someone pointed out the fact that non-Jews cheat too, he said "You're changing the subject. We're talking about Jews here.".

So, bluemark, blueboy83, bombers 2003, MGREG, lestat, etc and anyone else i didnt mention, let me ask you this. What have Israel done to deserve such worse condemnation than the Zimbabwe gov't(who tear land away from whites and give it to blacks), Ukranian gov't(who rigged their 'democratic' elections), Saudi Arabian gov't(who make Jews paint part of their houses black), the French gov't(who govern a country in which people can 'practice their religion freely', but aren't allowed to wear head scarves in government schools), all of the Arabic countries whose human rights records disallow their female members to be liable members of the country), Pakistani gov't(who sentenced a girl to gang rape for cheating on her husband) and other numerous countries with such horrific human rights records. Please back up your claims with FACTS, not falsehood, and SUBSTANCE not slogans.
1-Not aware of these remarks,so who was the president of Harvard who said these things?.
2- I dont support the Government of Zimbabwe's racial policies anymore then i did those of apartheid South Africa,but remember Ian Smith's land policies wernt that much different from Mugabe's.
3-Have pointed out atrocities of muslim states on female genital disfigurement a number of times.Also pointed out Taliban anti-female policies.
4-Agree with you on Ukraine.
5-Dont agree with that policy either.and i condemn muslim destruction of jewish synagoues in europe as well.
 

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#16
BlueMark said:
Believe it or not I agree with Medusala here.
Likewise. When a conservative like Medusala criticises the darling child of the US, then it's worth listening to.

Also, despite the arguments being complex in origin, how do the Jews have any more right to their "homeland" than the aboriginals would have to ask us to leave and claim back this country in totality. The claims and origins of the aboriginal people have far more longevity and merit than almost any other deposed race in the world today. Just goes to show what a convenient liberal democracy with nuclear weapons and a tragic recent history can achieve.
 

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Thread starter #17
Jim Boy said:
In Israel, we see a developed nation, with a strong sense of democracy and a very western outlook, much like Australia or any other western country. Because we associate with them so closely means that it hits home harder.
I think it's safe to say that the majority of the world considers Israel as a third world country because of the images we see on the news
 

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Mr Q said:
Why Tim?

Surely if we believe Israel is a proper liberal democracy, we'd reasonably expect it not to persecute those living under its dominion - which at the moment includes the Palestinians.

Thus we "know" Israel should know better.
Thus Israel do know better then...i'm not sure what you're accusing Israel of, please inform me?

Oh, sorry, our civillians are blown up, and we retaliate...i forgot sorry, sorry, sorry!!!!
 

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#20
Huh? I very much doubt many people think Israel is third world at all. The Occupied Territories might well qualify as third world, but Israel doesn't really strike me as much different to bits of Europe.
 

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#22
^Eagle^ said:
Thus Israel do know better then...i'm not sure what you're accusing Israel of, please inform me?

Oh, sorry, our civillians are blown up, and we retaliate...i forgot sorry, sorry, sorry!!!!
I suspect things like the blatant land grabs (you *have* heard of the settlements haven't you?) are fair indicators that the Israelis treat the Palestinians like ********. The Wall (fence/barrier/whatever) which isolates Palestinian towns from their hinterland and their near neighbours is clearly discriminatory.

Anyway, you're the guy that thinks Israel is thought of as third world because of its terrorist problems. Tell me, do you think of northern Spain, or northern Ireland as third world? They've both had terrorist problems over the years.
 

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#23
597 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF in the last 4 years. Over 3 000 Palestinians have also died.

BTW Eagle did you see the video of the killing of the 13 yr old girl?
 

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Thread starter #24
Mr Q said:
Anyway, you're the guy that thinks Israel is thought of as third world because of its terrorist problems.
no, im saying that around a year ago when Israel was on the news a lot more we were seeing images of a warzone, and when people think Israel, they think uncivillised. You cant argue with that.

And why dont you complain when the Spanish retaliate?
Mr Q said:
blatant land grabs
blatant terrorist attacks?

Not 100% sure about the land issues but isn't Arik pulling out of Gaza despite the anger from the Jewish settlers there? And the land wasn't stolen from the Palestinians, it was stolen from the neighboring Arab states during the six day war and much of it has been retained.
 

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BlueMark said:
BTW Eagle did you see the video of the killing of the 13 yr old girl?
Yep. And i also know the real story.

The 13 yr old girl was approaching the fence, and the soldier knew that they weren't allowed to allow Palestinian non-workers past the fence because they poised a terrorist attack(child bombers are often used by the p*ssy hammas/jihad/fatah as well). So, the soldier began to speak into the megaphone to let the girl know that she must turn back. he said this in arabic, english, hebrew and several prominent languages(not sure wot they wer). She continued to walk. the soldier did this for 10 minutes as she approached the fence. he was phoning his super because he didn't want to shoot the girl. He then proceeded to shoot bullets into the air. she continued to walk. he did this for 10 mins. After this, he began to shoot near the feet of the girl. Now, i know she was 13. but can you remember when you were 13? if a soldier with a gun who you had been brought up to believe was evil was telling you to turn around or face consequences, then he shot in the air and ~30 mins later was shooting at your feet what would you have done?

International law says that a civillian who resists a direct order from a soldier which does not conflict a belief or is considered "unreasonable"(theres some section in the UN laws) is no longer a civillian
International law also says that a civillian who is suspected to inflict harm and rejects a direct order from a soldier can be considered to be a civillian holding a weapon
International law also says that a civillian holding a weapon is no longer a civillian

So, under international law, the soldier was allowed to shoot the girl as soon as she rejected his first order, but he didnt. eventually he shot her. If you're an Israeli soldier, and anyone(ANYONE) is coming towards the fence, and rejecting orders to go back and is resisting the fact that there are bullets at her feet must be killed because it is almost certain that they possess a bomb. The soldier was extremely sorry about what he had done, but he had no choice. they couldnt try arrest her because one touch could mean an explosion(and IDF soldiers aren't like their enemies - they value their own lives)
 
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