Society/Culture On geniuses, rigid thinking, echo chambers

[Chief]

I know we usually ask people to summarise, but it's a short one and not taxing.

There's another like it on the effect of more information leading to polarisation rather than understanding.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Here you go Chief.....Might as well go straight to the source from which your lady is utilizing.

One-Dimensional Man: Studies in the Ideology of Advanced Industrial Society is a 1964 book by the philosopher Herbert Marcuse, in which the author offers a wide-ranging critique of both contemporary capitalism and the Communist society of the Soviet Union, documenting the parallel rise of new forms of social repression in both these societies, as well as the decline of revolutionary potential in the West. He argues that "advanced industrial society" created false needs, which integrated individuals into the existing system of production and consumption via mass media, advertising, industrial management, and contemporary modes of thought.[1]

This results in a "one-dimensional" universe of thought and behavior, in which aptitude and ability for critical thought and oppositional behavior wither away. Against this prevailing climate, Marcuse promotes the "great refusal" (described at length in the book) as the only adequate opposition to all-encompassing methods of control. Much of the book is a defense of "negative thinking" as a disrupting force against the prevailing positivism.[1]

Summation of the work:

The book is generally pessimistic about the possibilities for overcoming the increasing domination and un-freedom of technological society; it concentrates on the power of the present establishment to contain and repulse all alternatives to the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Dimensional_Man

 

[Chief]

Thanks - she talks about other studies as well.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Procrastinator35]

Thanks - she talks about other studies as well.

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yep....Marcuse is more the philosophical/intellectual armature behind her structuralist critique & thesis. Though a psychological component informs the other half.....Don't have a handle on which particular thinker she's using there.....Likely Adler, Piaget or Ericsson possibly....The psychoanalytical school is more my bag, rather than the cognitive behaviorist schools.

 

[Thats Wright]

Yep....Marcuse is more the philosophical/intellectual armature behind her structuralist critique & thesis. Though a psychological component informs the other half.....Don't have a handle on which particular thinker she's using there.....Likely Adler, Piaget or Ericsson possibly....The psychoanalytical school is more my bag, rather than the cognitive behaviorist schools.

No self-respecting CHF would talk like that.



Interesting thread.

 

[Procrastinator35]

No self-respecting CHF would talk like that.



Interesting thread.

Yeah....He's referencing cognitive De-constructionism there.....But also a pragmatic, practical approach to stripping away blinkered thinking.

The entire gist of the Nietzschean corpus is a return to ground zero.....That's the so-called 'Nihilistic' component upon which his entire critique of modernity rests.....That all assumptions & building blocks be torn to shreds & ripped asunder.....Basically, unlearning everything you've learned in order to 'SEE clearly' again.....Stripping away the world of human concepts, in order to perceive the world around us in an unfettered state once again. Just as a child....."When I was a child, I saw & spoke as a child, but now, as adults, we see through a glass darkly.'

We learn socially constructed concepts as children so as to better communicate & make sense of the adult world around us.....Unfortunately, by doing so, we can also lose sight of our own perceptions & thereby our selves, in rejecting the evidence of our own senses as primary to that of any secondary culturally engendered narratives.....Where the socially constructed world takes precedence over & becomes substituted for the real, natural one.....Take that whole 9-5 work reality for example.....That's not reality, it's a culturally engendered one....Just as the Week is....Or even Time itself, for that matter.

Returning to 'ground-zero' or Nietzschean Nihilism, is quite a brilliant technique; & it's always one that has stayed with me....It's very similar to Buddhism in returning to a state of Zen, where one has zero attachment or investment in the truth of any ideas or concepts external to the self.....That's what meditation is all about; A state of non-thinking in order to center ourselves & regain focus upon our true existential being once again....But also, more importantly, in never confusing ourselves or our identity with that of our own thoughts or ideas.....Because that's all they are....Thoughts & ideas.

But this is not to lose sight of the truth, or values or justice.....Rather, it causes these inherently moral precepts to become more accentuated than ever before.....Because that is the grounds upon which they inhere in: In our existential being.

 

[King Brown]

1:20 minutes in and I'm highly skeptical of her assertions.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Another postmodern scumbag. Any one who tells you to avoid the example of the top 1% of producers is a douche. These are one of those deplorables who got the Google kid fired.

At least Rand wrote brilliantly, even though she was a stubby short.

 

[Procrastinator35]

At least Rand wrote brilliantly, even though she was a stubby short.

The only thing Rand knew well was her Locke, Smith & Aristotle, combined with the Austrian economist school....As for being a good writer, particularly of novella & prose, you've got to be kidding.....Most of her characters are facades; & apart from 'We The Living', utterly devoid of any soul or grace whatsoever.

She was an embittered little girl with a daddy complex, is what she was....Her rationale for egoism & selfishness is prefaced upon a disassociation from her own feeling & humanity.....Her works scream of a person in abject denial of the emotional truth about herself, the world & others....Her Social Darwinian dog-eat-dog thesis is precisely what is destroying this world & lending credence to the elitist credo of 'Greed is good, * others'.

 

[skilts]

Yeah....He's referencing cognitive De-constructionism there.....But also a pragmatic, practical approach to stripping away blinkered thinking.

The entire gist of the Nietzschean corpus is a return to ground zero.....That's the so-called 'Nihilistic' component upon which his entire critique of modernity rests.....That all assumptions & building blocks be torn to shreds & ripped asunder.....Basically, unlearning everything you've learned in order to 'SEE clearly' again.....Stripping away the world of human concepts, in order to perceive the world around us in an unfettered state once again. Just as a child....."When I was a child, I saw & spoke as a child, but now, as adults, we see through a glass darkly.'

We learn socially constructed concepts as children so as to better communicate & make sense of the adult world around us.....Unfortunately, by doing so, we can also lose sight of our own perceptions & thereby our selves, in rejecting the evidence of our own senses as primary to that of any secondary culturally engendered narratives.....Where the socially constructed world takes precedence over & becomes substituted for the real, natural one.....Take that whole 9-5 work reality for example.....That's not reality, it's a culturally engendered one....Just as the Week is....Or even Time itself, for that matter.

Returning to 'ground-zero' or Nietzschean Nihilism, is quite a brilliant technique; & it's always one that has stayed with me....It's very similar to Buddhism in returning to a state of Zen, where one has zero attachment or investment in the truth of any ideas or concepts external to the self.....That's what meditation is all about; A state of non-thinking in order to center ourselves & regain focus upon our true existential being once again....But also, more importantly, in never confusing ourselves or our identity with that of our own thoughts or ideas.....Because that's all they are....Thoughts & ideas.

But this is not to lose sight of the truth, or values or justice.....Rather, it causes these inherently moral precepts to become more accentuated than ever before.....Because that is the grounds upon which they inhere in: In our existential being.

In his aesthetics, Nietzsche (Fred) attempts to address the issue of the veil which hides 'truth' in art. On the other hand, Heidegger (Marty). rather than tearing away the veil, says that the veil is all that is available to us. We have to deal with things as they present themselves to us. This is as close as we get to knowing what is.

In The Anti-Christ, Fred saw the Buddhist philosopher as being, "Against the spiritual exhaustion he encounters, which manifests itself as an excessive "objectivity" (that is, in the individual's loss of interest in himself, in the loss of a centre of gravity, of "egoism"), he fights with a rigorous attempt to lead back even to the most spiritual instincts to the person. In the Buddha's doctrine, egoism becomes a duty: the "one thing needful.", the question, "how can one escape suffering?" regulates the limit of the whole spiritual diet. (Perhaps one may here recall that Athenian who also waged war against pure "scientism" - Socrates, who elevated personal egoism to an ethic in the realm of problems.)"

I tend to read this passage as being, by implication, critical of the Buddhist method, including, if not especially, the whole process of meditation as being an (artificial and deliberate) withdrawal from life (Being), and as such, is a copout. I'd be interested to read your views on this interpretation. Hopefully, this will be seen as some food for thought, rather than a criticism.

 

[Procrastinator35]

In his aesthetics, Nietzsche (Fred) attempts to address the issue of the veil which hides 'truth' in art. On the other hand, Heidegger (Marty). rather than tearing away the veil, says that the veil is all that is available to us. We have to deal with things as they present themselves to us. This is as close as we get to knowing what is.

In The Anti-Christ, Fred saw the Buddhist philosopher as being, "Against the spiritual exhaustion he encounters, which manifests itself as an excessive "objectivity" (that is, in the individual's loss of interest in himself, in the loss of a center of gravity, of "egoism"), he fights with a rigorous attempt to lead back even to the most spiritual instincts to the person. In the Buddha's doctrine, egoism becomes a duty: the "one thing needful.", the question, "how can one escape suffering?" regulates the limit of the whole spiritual diet. (Perhaps one may here recall that Athenian who also waged war against pure "scientism" - Socrates, who elevated personal egoism to an ethic in the realm of problems.)"

I tend to read this passage as being, by implication, critical of the Buddhist method, including, if not especially, the whole process of meditation as being an (artificial and deliberate) withdrawal from life (Being), and as such, is a copout. I'd be interested to read your views on this interpretation. Hopefully, this will be seen as some food for thought, rather than a criticism.

Hopefully this will go some way to addressing your most excellent question skilts....Any attempt at a portrayal of Buddhist thought & philosophy as some Universal representation & understanding, incorporating & encapsulating all schools of thought, is misguided from the beginning.

I have offered up 2 examples below of Buddhist conceptions.....One which can perfectly be reconciled with your critique above....And the second which more accords with my understanding & reading of the essence of the Buddhist conception.

My reading of Nietzschean Nihilism always comes back to his child playing marbles in Zarathustra.....Where the overcoming of all struggles & becoming in the world, becomes manifest in the losing of the self, in the pure essence of spontaneous joy & being......Of a will in perfect harmony & unison with our natural Being....So the Buddhist retreat into meditation is most certainly an attempt at overcoming the existential rift & state of Being in pain, by facing that pain fully, as the true state of one's current Being....But this is in no way a denial of the will, and this is where Nietzsche is almost certainly projecting a Christian ascetic interpretation upon it, in your quote above....It is rather, a metamorphoses from one state of Being (in ego pain) into another (Painless superabundance)..... Just as Nietzsche's spirit also morphs from that of a pack-animal camel, into the form of a lion via the courage to both face the truth & cast off the yoke of human history; To finally morph into the innocent & creative healed child, playing marbles. Social Duty/ weight of expectation (Pain), Wildness (Courage to face it) Innocence (Overcoming & deliverance).

So for me.....Both the Buddhist & Nietzschean nihilistic conceptions, are representative of one's coming home to pure Being, to the blank canvas of God & truth, so to speak.....Of a willful affirmation of Being, not in it's negation.

The balded section below in the second example explains the Zen Buddhist side of it rather better than I ever could.

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/3452/how-valid-is-nietzsches-critique-of-buddhism

1. Theravada Buddhism. To vastly oversimplify, Theravadins practice something that approaches an ascetism. In a very real way, Theravada practice focuses on denying--and thus subduing--the will and any sense of desire. I think this most completely meshes with Nietzsche's conception of Buddhist thought as a negation of the will and a will to nothingness. This conception is very easily supported--and is supported in Theravada--through the Second and Third Noble Truths ("Desire is the root of suffering." and "There is a path to the cessation of desire.").
2. Zen Buddhism. Most notably in its theoretical form, Zen looks almost nothing like Theravada in respect to its approach to will and nothingness. Zen thinking relies heavily on the Diamond and Heart Sutras, which pretty explicitly say that the Buddhist conception of nothingness envelops even the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, Zen practitioners reach for a stillness of mind that manifests as a totally natural motion of mind. This looks almost identical to Taoist Wei-Wu-Wei (action without action), which is harmonious natural activity. In Zen (as in most forms of Buddhism when practiced in their highest forms), the fullness of nothingness is recognized: it is not a negation of anything, but rather an affirmation of everything which is in the phenomenally experienced world. In Zen, it is said that "It is right to want flowers and to hate weeds." This is quite obviously NOT a negation of will, but perhaps rather an attempt to free one's will from what Zen would call the confines of ego-bound or conceptual thought.

 

[skilts]

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/3452/how-valid-is-nietzsches-critique-of-buddhism

1. Zen Buddhism. Most notably in its theoretical form, Zen looks almost nothing like Theravada in respect to its approach to will and nothingness. Zen thinking relies heavily on the Diamond and Heart Sutras, which pretty explicitly say that the Buddhist conception of nothingness envelops even the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, Zen practitioners reach for a stillness of mind that manifests as a totally natural motion of mind. This looks almost identical to Taoist Wei-Wu-Wei (action without action), which is harmonious natural activity. In Zen (as in most forms of Buddhism when practiced in their highest forms), the fullness of nothingness is recognized: it is not a negation of anything, but rather an affirmation of everything which is in the phenomenally experienced world. In Zen, it is said that "It is right to want flowers and to hate weeds." This is quite obviously NOT a negation of will, but perhaps rather an attempt to free one's will from what Zen would call the confines of ego-bound or conceptual thought.

Thanks for the reply. A couple of questions arise:

1) How, in what manner, does stillness of mind manifest as a "totally natural motion of mind"? These two statements appear to be contradictory.

2) In what way does the Zen form of 'nothingness' differ from that asserted by Heidegger? My reading of Heidegger on this issue is that he argues that, for humans, the nothingness is depicted as being the manifestation of the angst that dogs us to death, literally and metaphorically (?). Is this aspect in any way also embraced by Buddhist thought? Also, what do you know about Heidegger's interest and involvement in Eastern traditions?

 

[Snake_Baker]

I know we usually ask people to summarise, but it's a short one and not taxing.

There's another like it on the effect of more information leading to polarisation rather than understanding.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

The only thing Rand knew well was her Locke, Smith & Aristotle, combined with the Austrian economist school....As for being a good writer, particularly of novella & prose, you've got to be kidding.....Most of her characters are facades; & apart from 'We The Living', utterly devoid of any soul or grace whatsoever.

She was an embittered little girl with a daddy complex, is what she was....Her rationale for egoism & selfishness is prefaced upon a disassociation from her own feeling & humanity.....Her works scream of a person in abject denial of the emotional truth about herself, the world & others....Her Social Darwinian dog-eat-dog thesis is precisely what is destroying this world & lending credence to the elitist credo of 'Greed is good, **** others'.

You left wing nut jobs have never been to solve that puzzle.

What happens when you shut down the primary producers?

I'll give you the hot tip - 6 million Ukrainians starved to death.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Thanks for the reply. A couple of questions arise:

1) How, in what manner, does stillness of mind manifest as a "totally natural motion of mind"? These two statements appear to be contradictory.

2) In what way does the Zen form of 'nothingness' differ from that asserted by Heidegger? My reading of Heidegger on this issue is that he argues that, for humans, the nothingness is depicted as being the manifestation of the angst that dogs us to death, literally and metaphorically (?). Is this aspect in any way also embraced by Buddhist thought? Also, what do you know about Heidegger's interest and involvement in Eastern traditions?

1. I certainly don't see them as natural contraries, only rather from a Western conception do they appear so. The mind is every bit a part of nature, just as the human body is....It's natural rhythms & waves are perfectly in accord & align with our bodies & nature....It is only where we become lost in abstraction, does it become separated & split-off from the body & soul....Then there is also the Western notion of Original Sin, where one's ego identity can become distinct & separate to the body. Such rifts & separations would be more considered as social demons from a Zen Buddhist perspective.....As Spirits that can take possession of our psyche's & split us in 2 away from our natural state of peace & harmony, in leading our minds into a state of inner chaos & confusion.....This is where the Buddhist activity of meditation aids & assists in re-centering the self, in stopping these run-away thought patterns from taking over our psyche & our Being.....Indeed, the word meditation itself derives from the median-point of healing & sewing both mind & body back together, into a integral harmony & whole.

The natural state of being & being in the world for a Buddhist, is one of peace, benevolence & harmony.....Chaos & an un-still mind is in fact, illness & disease.

2. Heidegger's' conception of 'nothingness' as you describe it, appears more derived from a negative Western apocalyptic perspective....As one of an inevitable doom & fall into the abyss....The Zen Buddhist perspective of nothingness is however, the exact opposite....Our ultimate state of being for Buddhism resides in a state of nothingness. But this nothingness is actually a state of Nirvana, where a full plenitude of being qua being is achieved in the presence of God....With no thoughts, thinking,ideas or distractions obscuring our lens.....This natural state of being is also a visceral one, where all our senses, mind & body are in harmony with the natural flow of the universe.

Most Western, existential conceptions of nothingness, from Kirkegaard onward, more derive from a state of angst initiated via a disruption & displacement from the natural world & order....More specifically, from the advancement of the industrial revolution onward....Of A literal casting-out, if you will, from the Garden of Eden....Where man has lost the plot & is doomed to never find it again or return home....A thesis which I fully concur with by the way....Of an inner emptiness where one has the constant feeling of a haunted uneasiness....Of having lost one's soul.....That's an entirely different kind of nothingness altogether. And rather more akin to static electricity, where a state of peace can never be attained within.

As regards Heideggers' interest in Eastern traditions, I'm not up to speed with that aspect of his thought & have never had the need or requirement to broach it.....His interests in the concept of Being & Time more derives from an Aristotelian conception, as regards his Categories & fundamental ontology....The Buddhist strains in Nietzsche's thought however have always intrigued me, & the turn to Oriental interests in the West during the period of the 1850's, through it's influence in Schopenhauers works; is generally regarded to be the root cause for those origins in Nietzsche's thought.

 

[Procrastinator35]

You left wing nut jobs have never been to solve that puzzle.

What happens when you shut down the primary producers?

I'll give you the hot tip - 6 million Ukrainians starved to death.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

1. I certainly don't see them as natural contraries, only rather from a Western conception do they appear so. The mind is every bit a part of nature, just as the human body is....It's natural rhythms & waves are perfectly in accord & align with our bodies & nature....It is only where we become lost in abstraction, does it become separated & split-off from the body & soul....Then there is also the Western notion of Original Sin, where one's ego identity can become distinct & separate to the body. Such rifts & separations would be more considered as social demons from a Zen Buddhist perspective.....As Spirits that can take possession of our psyche's & split us in 2 away from our natural state of peace & harmony, in leading our minds into a state of inner chaos & confusion.....This is where the Buddhist activity of meditation aids & assists in re-centering the self, in stopping these run-away thought patterns from taking over our psyche & our Being.....Indeed, the word meditation itself derives from the median-point of healing & sewing both mind & body back together, into a integral harmony & whole.

The natural state of being & being in the world for a Buddhist, is one of peace, benevolence & harmony.....Chaos & an un-still mind is in fact, illness & disease.

2. Heidegger's' conception of 'nothingness' as you describe it, appears more derived from a negative Western apocalyptic perspective....As one of an inevitable doom & fall into the abyss....The Zen Buddhist perspective of nothingness is however, the exact opposite....Our ultimate state of being for Buddhism resides in a state of nothingness. But this nothingness is actually a state of Nirvana, where a full plenitude of being qua being is achieved in the presence of God....With no thoughts, thinking,ideas or distractions obscuring our lens.....This natural state of being is also a visceral one, where all our senses, mind & body are in harmony with the natural flow of the universe.

Most Western, existential conceptions of nothingness, from Kirkegaard onward, more derive from a state of angst initiated via a disruption & displacement from the natural world & order....More specifically, from the advancement of the industrial revolution onward....Of A literal casting-out, if you will, from the Garden of Eden....Where man has lost the plot & is doomed to never find it again or return home....A thesis which I fully concur with by the way....Of an inner emptiness where one has the constant feeling of a haunted uneasiness....Of having lost one's soul.....That's an entirely different kind of nothingness altogether. And rather more akin to static electricity, where a state of peace can never be attained within.

As regards Heideggers' interest in Eastern traditions, I'm not up to speed with that aspect of his thought & have never had the need or requirement to broach it.....His interests in the concept of Being & Time more derives from an Aristotelian conception, as regards his Categories & fundamental ontology....The Buddhist strains in Nietzsche's thought however have always intrigued me, & the turn to Oriental interests in the West during the period of the 1850's, through it's influence in Schopenhauers works; is generally regarded to be the root cause for those origins in Nietzsche's thought.

If you're going to be a dingbat, please keep Nietzsche out of it. The man has suffered enough.

 

[Procrastinator35]

If you're going to be a dingbat, please keep Nietzsche out of it. The man has suffered enough.

So Nietzsche was a Tigers supporter eh?.....Tortured genius indeed.

Try & stick to the script Moshie, as difficult as that is for a Mook to do.

 

[RupieDupie]

1. I certainly don't see them as natural contraries, only rather from a Western conception do they appear so. The mind is every bit a part of nature, just as the human body is....It's natural rhythms & waves are perfectly in accord & align with our bodies & nature....It is only where we become lost in abstraction, does it become separated & split-off from the body & soul....Then there is also the Western notion of Original Sin, where one's ego identity can become distinct & separate to the body. Such rifts & separations would be more considered as social demons from a Zen Buddhist perspective.....As Spirits that can take possession of our psyche's & split us in 2 away from our natural state of peace & harmony, in leading our minds into a state of inner chaos & confusion.....This is where the Buddhist activity of meditation aids & assists in re-centering the self, in stopping these run-away thought patterns from taking over our psyche & our Being.....Indeed, the word meditation itself derives from the median-point of healing & sewing both mind & body back together, into a integral harmony & whole.

The natural state of being & being in the world for a Buddhist, is one of peace, benevolence & harmony.....Chaos & an un-still mind is in fact, illness & disease.

2. Heidegger's' conception of 'nothingness' as you describe it, appears more derived from a negative Western apocalyptic perspective....As one of an inevitable doom & fall into the abyss....The Zen Buddhist perspective of nothingness is however, the exact opposite....Our ultimate state of being for Buddhism resides in a state of nothingness. But this nothingness is actually a state of Nirvana, where a full plenitude of being qua being is achieved in the presence of God....With no thoughts, thinking,ideas or distractions obscuring our lens.....This natural state of being is also a visceral one, where all our senses, mind & body are in harmony with the natural flow of the universe.

Most Western, existential conceptions of nothingness, from Kirkegaard onward, more derive from a state of angst initiated via a disruption & displacement from the natural world & order....More specifically, from the advancement of the industrial revolution onward....Of A literal casting-out, if you will, from the Garden of Eden....Where man has lost the plot & is doomed to never find it again or return home....A thesis which I fully concur with by the way....Of an inner emptiness where one has the constant feeling of a haunted uneasiness....Of having lost one's soul.....That's an entirely different kind of nothingness altogether. And rather more akin to static electricity, where a state of peace can never be attained within.

As regards Heideggers' interest in Eastern traditions, I'm not up to speed with that aspect of his thought & have never had the need or requirement to broach it.....His interests in the concept of Being & Time more derives from an Aristotelian conception, as regards his Categories & fundamental ontology....The Buddhist strains in Nietzsche's thought however have always intrigued me, & the turn to Oriental interests in the West during the period of the 1850's, through it's influence in Schopenhauers works; is generally regarded to be the root cause for those origins in Nietzsche's thought.

You're a good boy Procrastinator35

 

[Procrastinator35]

You're a good boy Procrastinator35

Cheers....Does that come with the obligatory condescending head-pat & gold star then?

Anything by way of a substantive contribution to the thread?

 

[RupieDupie]

Cheers....Does that come with the obligatory condescending head-pat & gold star then?

Anything by way of a substantive contribution to the thread?

Definitely a pat on the head. But let me gather my thoughts on a few things you've written above, as I insinuated, I really enjoyed reading this and there is a lot to take in, but sometimes the mechanics of my brain need a bit of lubrication to start the gears whirling. I might even read the One-Dimensional Man. So definitely thanks for this!

 

[RupieDupie]

Cheers....Does that come with the obligatory condescending head-pat & gold star then?

Anything by way of a substantive contribution to the thread?

Right, here is one way I'm going to go with this. The idea of Liberation from the Bhagavad Gita. We are waging a battle against our family, and that it is ok to kill them as they will be reincarnated. But now we take the underlying message, that we are not literally discussing killing our uncles, only their teachings, this is a spiritual war. Their teachings will persist in future generations, as they will be taught to further generations, and therefore are reincarnated, but individually liberation is reached when a person can criticise these teachings, and/or remove these teachings as a guiding principle, thus the teaching ends with that person. A person can find their own path.

Consumerism becomes exactly like this, as mentioned by yourself above. Me patting you on the head rewards you in much the same way that an iPhone can reward a user for acting more and more like the user. In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna would have been given pats on the head every time he behaved as he was supposed to by his uncles, yet would have to wage a battle to reject this way of life. Consumerism is the constant patting on the head of a modern teenager thirsting for instant gratification in their otherwise drab existence. The teenager has no individual path, they are empty shells.

Going even further, starting to move away from the idea that underpins the thread here. Life is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game. People who do not get the instant gratification become the agitated philosophers, the people who had their parents tell them "no", these people take a moment to step back and view the rules, see where the biases lie and can criticise the game. They can see the games imperfections. These people become players in the game, the real people. You can see these people, they walk around rather sporadically and in a constant state of agitation.

The other people are just sprites (AI), people with pleb and slave mentality that have simple algorithms underpinning their behaviour. These are the people constantly following and never criticising the rules of the game, like sheep. Everything these people say or do a person can predict with 100% accuracy, and as there is a massive amount of them the game will not change. They are like the pieces on a board, or the Pinocchio puppets of the world, addicted to the momentary gratification they get from jerking off at the expense of being a real person.

 

[skilts]

Right, here is one way I'm going to go with this. The idea of Liberation from the Bhagavad Gita. We are waging a battle against our family, and that it is ok to kill them as they will be reincarnated. But now we take the underlying message, that we are not literally discussing killing our uncles, only their teachings, this is a spiritual war. Their teachings will persist in future generations, as they will be taught to further generations, and therefore are reincarnated, but individually liberation is reached when a person can criticise these teachings, and/or remove these teachings as a guiding principle, thus the teaching ends with that person. A person can find their own path.

Consumerism becomes exactly like this, as mentioned by yourself above. Me patting you on the head rewards you in much the same way that an iPhone can reward a user for acting more and more like the user. In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna would have been given pats on the head every time he behaved as he was supposed to by his uncles, yet would have to wage a battle to reject this way of life. Consumerism is the constant patting on the head of a modern teenager thirsting for instant gratification in their otherwise drab existence. The teenager has no individual path, they are empty shells.

Going even further, starting to move away from the idea that underpins the thread here. Life is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game. People who do not get the instant gratification become the agitated philosophers, the people who had their parents tell them "no", these people take a moment to step back and view the rules, see where the biases lie and can criticise the game. They can see the games imperfections. These people become players in the game, the real people. You can see these people, they walk around rather sporadically and in a constant state of agitation.

The other people are just sprites (AI), people with pleb and slave mentality that have simple algorithms underpinning their behaviour. These are the people constantly following and never criticising the rules of the game, like sheep. Everything these people say or do a person can predict with 100% accuracy, and as there is a massive amount of them the game will not change. They are like the pieces on a board, or the Pinocchio puppets of the world, addicted to the momentary gratification they get from jerking off at the expense of being a real person.

Interesting. In which of these categories would you place yourself?

 

[RupieDupie]

Interesting. In which of these categories would you place yourself?

Definitely a player, I find myself performing inane crap, and I can't actually explain why I need to do it. It feels like those games where a level architect was told to make a new level and couldn't be fcuked of thinking of something new, so in the game the player has to go back into the Mordar Woods and back into the Shadow Crypt to talk to the hag, again, who tells the player they need to fetch her broomstick from the Cave of Constipation.

There was this one time where I thought to myself after a day of completing inane tasks, 'phew, I'm home, I've got Faust Part II by Goethe to read, and I enjoyed Faust Part I, nothing can go wrong for me while I'm reading a book. Suck it God.' But then the book was s**t. It was like in that movie, Stranger than Fiction where the protagonist hides in his house so the story can't proceed and then his house is demolished.

 

[ShanDog]

Yeah....He's referencing cognitive De-constructionism there.....But also a pragmatic, practical approach to stripping away blinkered thinking.

The entire gist of the Nietzschean corpus is a return to ground zero.....That's the so-called 'Nihilistic' component upon which his entire critique of modernity rests.....That all assumptions & building blocks be torn to shreds & ripped asunder.....Basically, unlearning everything you've learned in order to 'SEE clearly' again.....Stripping away the world of human concepts, in order to perceive the world around us in an unfettered state once again. Just as a child....."When I was a child, I saw & spoke as a child, but now, as adults, we see through a glass darkly.'

We learn socially constructed concepts as children so as to better communicate & make sense of the adult world around us.....Unfortunately, by doing so, we can also lose sight of our own perceptions & thereby our selves, in rejecting the evidence of our own senses as primary to that of any secondary culturally engendered narratives.....Where the socially constructed world takes precedence over & becomes substituted for the real, natural one.....Take that whole 9-5 work reality for example.....That's not reality, it's a culturally engendered one....Just as the Week is....Or even Time itself, for that matter.

Returning to 'ground-zero' or Nietzschean Nihilism, is quite a brilliant technique; & it's always one that has stayed with me....It's very similar to Buddhism in returning to a state of Zen, where one has zero attachment or investment in the truth of any ideas or concepts external to the self.....That's what meditation is all about; A state of non-thinking in order to center ourselves & regain focus upon our true existential being once again....But also, more importantly, in never confusing ourselves or our identity with that of our own thoughts or ideas.....Because that's all they are....Thoughts & ideas.

But this is not to lose sight of the truth, or values or justice.....Rather, it causes these inherently moral precepts to become more accentuated than ever before.....Because that is the grounds upon which they inhere in: In our existential being.

Hang on a tic - are you suggesting Nietzsche was a proponent of nihilism?