Once you lose the players, do you ever really get them back?

kulak

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In answer to the thread title, how do you know when you have lost the players vs when you are not very good vs when you are low on confidence.

Richmond were non-competitive late in 2016, and then their captain demanded a trade. They came back ok in 2017.

Not many teams would succeed with their supposed stars like Walker, Talia, Betts, Jacobs struggling like we are.

Add that to Charles, MGov and Lever demanding trades and not being replaced

Add that to trading in Gibbs, a one pace average skill accumulator - an area we were already well stocked

Maybe we are just cooked? And it would look the same whoever coaches us
 

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James_37

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The players are the problem. Pyke has done everything possible to pander to their delicate sensibilities.

They were gifted the safest of safe space pre-seasons to help them harvest their belly button fluff and post it on instagram.

All we heard from them was how great Pyke has been letting them be themselves and enjoy their life experience.

Have you been to the home games? Have you seen Walker, Crouch, Lynch and Laird jogging uselessly when they know they aren't in the camera frame?

The players are acting out as overpaid petulant, lazy flogs playing with no pride.

Rumours galore about a split over the captaincy being taken off Walker.

They are a bunch of men with the mental age of 13 year olds.
I don't disagree, but unfortunately its Pyke's job to bring the players in line and unfortunately its not very easy to simply replace a playing list to suite your coach. It is easy to replace your coach though, difficult to find the right one.

At the end of the day, Pyke took over the club in a very difficult and unique situation. A list that had just lost its beloved head coach in tragic circumstance, not to mention Dean Bailey not 12 months earlier and then to lose its star player at the end of the year to rub salt into the very raw wounds... This all still in the shadow of the Tippett saga and all that went along with it.

I think he was a great choice and did a tremendous job to get us into the Grand Final 2 years later. It very easily could have gone the otherway. Unfortunately, we tripped at the ultimate step and came crashing down, a process which was managed poorly and unfortunately it appears that the damage in that fall is essentially irreparable by those currently in charge of the club.

Its looking increasingly likely that we need a broom through admin, coaching staff, list management staff, fitness staff and players. We've developed a soft, conservative, near enough is good enough culture, where players must be mollycoddled.
 

James_37

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In answer to the thread title, how do you know when you have lost the players vs when you are not very good vs when you are low on confidence.

Richmond were non-competitive late in 2016, and then their captain demanded a trade. They came back ok in 2017.

Not many teams would succeed with their supposed stars like Walker, Talia, Betts, Jacobs struggling like we are.

Add that to Charles, MGov and Lever demanding trades and not being replaced

Add that to trading in Gibbs, a one pace average skill accumulator - an area we were already well stocked

Maybe we are just cooked? And it would look the same whoever coaches us
That's a great question. I think the key is that whilst Richmond kept their senior coach, the did the "next best thing" to sacking the coach, in that they sacked all his assistants and moved on their former captain in Brett Deledio.

Interestingly the Western Bulldogs moved Adam Cooney and Ryan Griffen on just prior to their success. West Coast had Priddis, Mitchell and Petrie retire. Hawthorn have had massive turnover and a bog average list on paper, yet still remain very competitive.

Sometimes its as much about creating a "reset" as anything else. Sacking Pyke may not be the answer, but its difficult to know, but I'm increasingly getting the feel that he's run his race. He's not adaptable, is too set in his ways and too committed to continuity to demand/make the changes required.

Adit: I guess myself, I'd love to see Pyke make some drastic changes to the line up before I'd sack him, unfortunately, he's just not going to make those changes. He'll just persist until we manage a win and then point to it as justification for his persistence.
 

MRB37

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I don't disagree, but unfortunately its Pyke's job to bring the players in line and unfortunately its not very easy to simply replace a playing list to suite your coach. It is easy to replace your coach though, difficult to find the right one.

At the end of the day, Pyke took over the club in a very difficult and unique situation. A list that had just lost its beloved head coach in tragic circumstance, not to mention Dean Bailey not 12 months earlier and then to lose its star player at the end of the year to rub salt into the very raw wounds... This all still in the shadow of the Tippett saga and all that went along with it.

I think he was a great choice and did a tremendous job to get us into the Grand Final 2 years later. It very easily could have gone the otherway. Unfortunately, we tripped at the ultimate step and came crashing down, a process which was managed poorly and unfortunately it appears that the damage in that fall is essentially irreparable by those currently in charge of the club.

Its looking increasingly likely that we need a broom through admin, coaching staff, list management staff, fitness staff and players. We've developed a soft, conservative, near enough is good enough culture, where players must be mollycoddled.
He's his own worse enemy. If they don't want to play for him then drop them for some kids who will. There are non negotiables for every side, effort, intent and fundemental skills. If you're missing one of those then you shouldn't be playing and we've got a bunch of players missing multiple of 'em.
 

OutofTownCrow

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We overrated what Phil actually achieved.
It was his approach, his influence that he had on the players. Who knows where it would have ended ... but if you couldn't see a difference in the playing group between the Walsh and the Pike periods, then I guess we are looking at things very very differently.
 

hey shorty

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It was his approach, his influence that he had on the players. Who knows where it would have ended ... but if you couldn't see a difference in the playing group between the Walsh and the Pike periods, then I guess we are looking at things very very differently.
Yeah we are.

2017 we were all up and about, like we were in 2015.
 

jenny61_99

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The players are the problem. Pyke has done everything possible to pander to their delicate sensibilities.

They were gifted the safest of safe space pre-seasons to help them harvest their belly button fluff and post it on instagram.

All we heard from them was how great Pyke has been letting them be themselves and enjoy their life experience.

Have you been to the home games? Have you seen Walker, Crouch, Lynch and Laird jogging uselessly when they know they aren't in the camera frame?

The players are acting out as overpaid petulant, lazy flogs playing with no pride.

Rumours galore about a split over the captaincy being taken off Walker.

They are a bunch of men with the mental age of 13 year olds.
See the thing is..... these players have been through so ******* much. First with the loss of Walsh.... I mean, how do you get over that? Then despite all vowing to stay together until they finished what he started, Dangerfield left. Then Lever, Charlie and McGovern.... The loss of the unlosable grand final.... we had all said for many months that our team was “mentally weak” - couldn’t win the close ones, or turned up thinking that’s all we needed to do to win... and not put the effort in. So the Club identified that we needed to work on their mental strength. Yay. Club chose CM. Booo. This was followed by an unprecedented attack by the media and speculation of what did or did not happen. Much stuff was made up. Then we have annus horribilus and injuries to key personnel. Then in the space two months, Sloane’s son is still born, and Tex’s girlfriend has a late term miscarriage. These fellas have truly suffered e-*******-nough. I’m not trying to excuse them... but maybe just explaining what they AND PYKE are up against.
 

kulak

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That's a great question. I think the key is that whilst Richmond kept their senior coach, the did the "next best thing" to sacking the coach, in that they sacked all his assistants and moved on their former captain in Brett Deledio.

Interestingly the Western Bulldogs moved Adam Cooney and Ryan Griffen on just prior to their success. West Coast had Priddis, Mitchell and Petrie retire. Hawthorn have had massive turnover and a bog average list on paper, yet still remain very competitive.

Sometimes its as much about creating a "reset" as anything else. Sacking Pyke may not be the answer, but its difficult to know, but I'm increasingly getting the feel that he's run his race. He's not adaptable, is too set in his ways and too committed to continuity to demand/make the changes required.

Adit: I guess myself, I'd love to see Pyke make some drastic changes to the line up before I'd sack him, unfortunately, he's just not going to make those changes. He'll just persist until we manage a win and then point to it as justification for his persistence.
That reset was never going to come after 2017. We just played off in a GF!

It was never going to come after 2018. We were clearly unlucky with injury!

If this year keeps going the same way, then surely a reset of some kind is on its way.

For me the reason I think Pyke has lost the players is because of how many have quit the club since he has been here.

Lever and Cameron after 2017
McGovern after 2018
Who will it be after 2019? Doedee, Gallucci?

Add that to the assistant coaches who have left

And the new assistant coaches aren’t exactly highly reputed great catches

For me all that in combination with some of the non competitive on field efforts last year and this year adds up most likely to a manager whose employees just don’t want to be there.
 

mattymac

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Its looking increasingly likely that we need a broom through admin, coaching staff, list management staff, fitness staff and players. We've developed a soft, conservative, near enough is good enough culture, where players must be mollycoddled.
I would try changing all of those before changing Pyke. Pyke is the highest value asset we have at the club.

Throwing out the wheat and keeping the chaff would achieve nothing.

Broom through admin, tick.

Broom through assistant coaches, tick.

Hard to put a broom through the playing list but you can be surgical and take out ringleaders that drive lazy gameday habits.
 

AmericanCrow

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It went off the rails when the players were allowed to excuse the exact same poor skills, poor decision making, poor structures and poor results starting in week 10 last year.

A choice was made by management and coaching staff to coddle the excuse making and the season went off the rails.

It has never been the same since.

Wholesale changes and total rebuild is all that can be done now.

Must tear down the coaching staff and the playing list.

It will be painful, it will suck and it is absolutely necessary.

Need a strong voice at head ball coach and need players that don't look for excuses when they hit a bump or two.

I had always thought this core group of players was mentally tough for what they went thru but the reality is that was a complete illusion.

Everything needs rebooted--Everything
 

1970crow

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I would try changing all of those before changing Pyke. Pyke is the highest value asset we have at the club.

Throwing out the wheat and keeping the chaff would achieve nothing.

Broom through admin, tick.

Broom through assistant coaches, tick.

Hard to put a broom through the playing list but you can be surgical and take out ringleaders that drive lazy gameday habits.
“Highest value asset” that rolls over and accepts sub-standard coaches. Pyke is a pure Craig clone, he believes he can achieve with these coaches which makes him a liability. Your support of him is starting to reach Jenny/Trigg territory. At least she disclosed why she had zero objectivity.
 

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hey shorty

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“Highest value asset” that rolls over and accepts sub-standard coaches. Pyke is a pure Craig clone, he believes he can achieve with these coaches which makes him a liability. Your support of him is starting to reach Jenny/Trigg territory. At least she disclosed why she had zero objectivity.
Craig actually got in the people he wanted
 

SaltPeter

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“Highest value asset” that rolls over and accepts sub-standard coaches. Pyke is a pure Craig clone, he believes he can achieve with these coaches which makes him a liability. Your support of him is starting to reach Jenny/Trigg territory. At least she disclosed why she had zero objectivity.
Agree in large with what you're saying. Interesting though that both Buckley and Hardwick appeared to be largely happy with the coaches and support around them until the external reviews were completed and wholesale changes made
 

hugecannon

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The issue is Campo's midfield has only operated at an elite level contested wise and by throwing extra numbers through it. We've never had a two way running midfield, or a midfield capable of getting clean ball out from inside to out, it's all hack work. Now with 6-6-6 he can't throw extra men through the contest consistently we're getting caught out again there.
It also appears to be solely reliant on a dominant ruckman giving them a massive armchair ride at stoppages, it’s no coincidence that as sauce has hit his cliff our performances have gone down the toilet.
 

Peter J

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If there is a divide - and that’s just speculation, they need to show some leadership and break it up one way or another.

Either back the squad and get rid of Pyke, or tell them Pyke is taking us forward through a rebuild and we’re backing him. Give him everything he needs.

Either way we can’t have more than 2 years of inertia. We need to set a path for 2020.
 

Slippery Pete

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Biggest thing Phil Walsh had going for him was that he held all the same opinions about the club that the really astute posters on here hold, because he watched our fu** ups from across the ditch for years on end. He said this publicly at one point.

He had opinions about us that aren’t really allowed on the inside, but somehow he got in. He was one of a kind.
 

1970crow

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Agree in large with what you're saying. Interesting though that both Buckley and Hardwick appeared to be largely happy with the coaches and support around them until the external reviews were completed and wholesale changes made
We’ve been led to believe that Pyke gave the club a list and got nothing that he wanted and is therefore completely absolved. Despite the fact that he’s in his 4th year as senior coach.
 

SaltPeter

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We’ve been led to believe that Pyke gave the club a list and got nothing that he wanted and is therefore completely absolved. Despite the fact that he’s in his 4th year as senior coach.
I haven't heard or been lead to believe that at all. Don coached here before with Craig and co and already had relationships within the club. Pyke strikes me as a bloke who from a competitive perspective believes that as a "holistic" team that they can overcome anything. This was at some level also a Craig philosophy.

Both Buckley and Hardwick needed external intervention to assist creating the optimum environment to allow them to flourish.
 

1970crow

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I haven't heard or been lead to believe that at all. Don coached here before with Craig and co and already had relationships within the club. Pyke strikes me as a bloke who from a competitive perspective believes that as a "holistic" team that they can overcome anything. This was at some level also a Craig philosophy.

Both Buckley and Hardwick needed external intervention to assist creating the optimum environment to allow them to flourish.
Chat to mattymac about that, he’s got very different and specific ideas.
 

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