Ongoing Test match XI speculation thread.

[matt_y106]

Hence I said not overwhelmed. Green averages 50 with the bat and low 20s with the ball in FC cricket at 21 years old. Long term if he could average 45-50 with the bat and 30 something with the ball I think that's a realistic ceiling. But I'm not expecting him to just walk into the team at 21 and make 100s and take 5fers.

That is almost Jacques Kallis level of batting/bowling averages. Arguably the greatest all rounder of all time. Pretty high ceiling...


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[eddiesmith]

Any word on when the squad will be picked?

The squad is picked, it won’t change over the course of the series due to hub requirements

 

[hawkman]

The squad is picked, it won’t change over the course of the series due to hub requirements

Well if Pucovski does come in you would think they would release one of Burns or Harris

 

[Tyberious Funk]

Justin Langer is pretty conservative... my guess is he'll be pushing to keep the changes minimal. Particularly with the series on the line. Two really young, inexperienced players (ie, Green and Pucowski) would probably be too much, so I don't think Pucowski will be coming in.

I read some comments JL made in regards to Burns, and he didn't really defend the guy much... so my guess is that Burns will be the one to go, for Warner. I suspect a bigger hammer will be wielded for the 4th Test, depending on how things go in Sydney.

 

[Scotland]

That is almost Jacques Kallis level of batting/bowling averages. Arguably the greatest all rounder of all time. Pretty high ceiling...

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What should his ceiling be?

 

[Docker82]

What should his ceiling be?

A bowling average of low 30s isn’t that impressive if we were talking about a specialist bowler. That’s all Kallis managed.

Thing is Kallis was close to if not the best batsman of his generation (guys like Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting were far more attractive to watch but results very similar). That and the fact he was a solid test bowler made Kallis an all time great.

Let’s be honest though. Kallis played across an era/s where guys like Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn, Philander and Morkel were in the South African side. If he batted like Glenn McGrath he might not have played half the test matches he did. If he didn’t bowl he still would’ve made every side in the world.

If Green could average 45 with the bat, instead of 55 like Kallis (and average low 30s with the ball) he’d still be statistically the best all rounder Australia has ever had. It’s still a massive ask.

 

[matt_y106]

What should his ceiling be?

I just think it’s ridiculous to be predicting ‘ceiling’s’ of players who have played 2 tests.


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[11kgm]

Warner is fit and should be a lock for burns

Puc is also available and has been working with Rogers

Warner
Puc/Harris
Lab
Smith
Wade
Green
Paine
Cummins
Pattinson
Wood
Lyon

 

[1990crow]

Why does Wade keep getting picked with his average of 31. It's not up to the level.

Warner is fit and should be a lock for burns

Puc is also available and has been working with Rogers

Warner
Puc/Harris
Lab
Smith
Wade
Green
Paine
Cummins
Pattinson
Wood
Lyon

 

[Docker82]

Why does Wade keep getting picked with his average of 31. It's not up to the level.

Because the selectors are stupid enough to select hacks like Marcus Harris who everyone knows isn’t test standard and Langer and co. have enough common sense not pick him?

If there were valid alternatives for openers in the squad that were fit leaving out Wade might be an option.

 

[11kgm]

Because the selectors are stupid enough to select hacks like Marcus Harris who everyone knows isn’t test standard and Langer and co. have enough common sense not pick him?

If there were valid alternatives for openers in the squad that were fit leaving out Wade might be an option.

Yep at least Wade fights hard

 

[Scotland]

A bowling average of low 30s isn’t that impressive if we were talking about a specialist bowler. That’s all Kallis managed.

Thing is Kallis was close to if not the best batsman of his generation (guys like Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting were far more attractive to watch but results very similar). That and the fact he was a solid test bowler made Kallis an all time great.

Let’s be honest though. Kallis played across an era/s where guys like Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn, Philander and Morkel were in the South African side. If he batted like Glenn McGrath he might not have played half the test matches he did. If he didn’t bowl he still would’ve made every side in the world.

If Green could average 45 with the bat, instead of 55 like Kallis (and average low 30s with the ball) he’d still be statistically the best all rounder Australia has ever had. It’s still a massive ask.

All rounders who would be picked on just their batting or bowling don't really exist. If Kallis never bowled, he would still bat at 4. As a 5th bowler, Kallis was perfect. Apart from the fact that half the time he was injured and couldn't bowl, Watson was a perfectly good 5th bowler for us, even Marsh did that role fine. Problem was that he (Watson) averaged 24, 31, 35, 26, 30 with the bat his last 5 years. Marsh was a walking wicket most of the time.

It seems to be getting lost was a ceiling is, but Green comes into test cricket averaging 51 with the bat and 22 with the ball at FC level from a small sample size. That's not sustainable long term in the Shield let alone at test level, but that's where he sits right now. The most important thing is that we find someone to bat at 6 that consistently make runs and stay at the crease when the pitch isn't bitumenised. Personally I don't care that much what Green does with the ball if he performs with the bat. I'd rather have a guy averaging 45 who bowls the odd spell here and there than a guy averaging 30-35 with bat and ball. But that's me. Bowling stats for all rounders are only of so much value because they don't usually bowl as many overs or get the new ball and a slip cordon etc. Batting lower in the order you don't get as much opportunity as an opener, but it's not like ODI cricket where you can bat at 6 and 7 and chip in with a quick 20 or 30 and that's enough. If like Marsh you play 20 odd tests and average 25 you aren't doing enough.

Steve Waugh finished with almost 11,000 runs @ 51 and 92 wickets @ 37. Took him years to be a consistent run scorer and he barely bowled the last 10 years of his career, but early on he was batting low in the order and in the side as an all rounder. Green's done enough to stay in the team for the rest of the series, and unless he fails dramatically I think he stays for the next series too. Needs to be given a decent run as a batsman and if he bowls a few overs great.

 

[Docker82]

All rounders who would be picked on just their batting or bowling don't really exist. If Kallis never bowled, he would still bat at 4. As a 5th bowler, Kallis was perfect. Apart from the fact that half the time he was injured and couldn't bowl, Watson was a perfectly good 5th bowler for us, even Marsh did that role fine. Problem was that he (Watson) averaged 24, 31, 35, 26, 30 with the bat his last 5 years. Marsh was a walking wicket most of the time.

It seems to be getting lost was a ceiling is, but Green comes into test cricket averaging 51 with the bat and 22 with the ball at FC level from a small sample size. That's not sustainable long term in the Shield let alone at test level, but that's where he sits right now. The most important thing is that we find someone to bat at 6 that consistently make runs and stay at the crease when the pitch isn't bitumenised. Personally I don't care that much what Green does with the ball if he performs with the bat. I'd rather have a guy averaging 45 who bowls the odd spell here and there than a guy averaging 30-35 with bat and ball. But that's me. Bowling stats for all rounders are only of so much value because they don't usually bowl as many overs or get the new ball and a slip cordon etc. Batting lower in the order you don't get as much opportunity as an opener, but it's not like ODI cricket where you can bat at 6 and 7 and chip in with a quick 20 or 30 and that's enough. If like Marsh you play 20 odd tests and average 25 you aren't doing enough.

Steve Waugh finished with almost 11,000 runs @ 51 and 92 wickets @ 37. Took him years to be a consistent run scorer and he barely bowled the last 10 years of his career, but early on he was batting low in the order and in the side as an all rounder. Green's done enough to stay in the team for the rest of the series, and unless he fails dramatically I think he stays for the next series too. Needs to be given a decent run as a batsman and if he bowls a few overs great.

I’ve always been of the view that if you’re picked in the top six you should be in the top six batsmen in the country. You may make small exceptions if say the eighth best batsman in the country was an all rounder but otherwise that’s my opinion. Green looks like he’s good enough to be at least that exception, maybe even genuinely in our top six bats.

Problem with most all rounders, outside of the once in a generation players, is:
1. Quite often these guys need to be in the form of their life to be in the top six batsman in the country. If they’re not they’re basically a number eight standard batsman batting at six, which is a disaster waiting to happen.
2. I’m not sure a lot of guys picked as all rounders are genuinely good enough bowlers to bowl the amount of overs they do.

Green’s situation is helped by our batting options looking extremely thin meaning he is pretty damn close to the top six batsmen in the country. Shane Watson despite the stats you quoted above was quite similar. Marsh also came around when there wasn’t many great top six options except he was so sh*te it didn’t matter he was no where near a top six batsman.

 

[Cainozz]

I'd probably just be dropping Burns at this stage. The series is very much alive and I can't see anyone outside of the XI who will be our saviour apart from a fit Warner on a batting friendly SCG. Head, although frustrating to watch probably needs to be given another crack as he does seem to be getting starts. Wade to continue opening the batting for now with Warner in. If we lose and Head under performs again, I'd be happy to bring in Puc at 5 for Head. Green needs to be persisted with. He's going to take a while to develop but Australian cricket will be better off for it in the long run.

If we are going to win this, one of Smith, Lab or Warner needs to make a big ton.

 

[Richard Pryor]

I’ve always been of the view that if you’re picked in the top six you should be in the top six batsmen in the country. You may make small exceptions if say the eighth best batsman in the country was an all rounder but otherwise that’s my opinion. Green looks like he’s good enough to be at least that exception, maybe even genuinely in our top six bats.

Problem with most all rounders, outside of the once in a generation players, is:
1. Quite often these guys need to be in the form of their life to be in the top six batsman in the country. If they’re not they’re basically a number eight standard batsman batting at six, which is a disaster waiting to happen.
2. I’m not sure a lot of guys picked as all rounders are genuinely good enough bowlers to bowl the amount of overs they do.

Green’s situation is helped by our batting options looking extremely thin meaning he is pretty damn close to the top six batsmen in the country. Shane Watson despite the stats you quoted above was quite similar. Marsh was the same except he was so sh*te it didn’t matter.

Agree with your point on the problem with allrounders. I think the only allrounder we have ever had who actually avoided both problems was Keith Miller, I really can't think of anyone else who wasn't 'really' just a batsman/bowler who was a part-timer in the other discipline (i.e. Richie Benaud).

 

[Pippen94]

I’ve always been of the view that if you’re picked in the top six you should be in the top six batsmen in the country. You may make small exceptions if say the eighth best batsman in the country was an all rounder but otherwise that’s my opinion. Green looks like he’s good enough to be at least that exception, maybe even genuinely in our top six bats.

Problem with most all rounders, outside of the once in a generation players, is:
1. Quite often these guys need to be in the form of their life to be in the top six batsman in the country. If they’re not they’re basically a number eight standard batsman batting at six, which is a disaster waiting to happen.
2. I’m not sure a lot of guys picked as all rounders are genuinely good enough bowlers to bowl the amount of overs they do.

Green’s situation is helped by our batting options looking extremely thin meaning he is pretty damn close to the top six batsmen in the country. Shane Watson despite the stats you quoted above was quite similar. Marsh was the same except he was so sh*te it didn’t matter.

That's such a rigid & boring approach to selection - every team would look same. How about you pick your best players & fill spaces around them based on need??
In 2015 England has success picking two players in ali & stokes on all round ability who wouldn't have made it under "best six batsman..." approach.

 

[Pippen94]

All rounders who would be picked on just their batting or bowling don't really exist. If Kallis never bowled, he would still bat at 4. As a 5th bowler, Kallis was perfect. Apart from the fact that half the time he was injured and couldn't bowl, Watson was a perfectly good 5th bowler for us, even Marsh did that role fine. Problem was that he (Watson) averaged 24, 31, 35, 26, 30 with the bat his last 5 years. Marsh was a walking wicket most of the time.

It seems to be getting lost was a ceiling is, but Green comes into test cricket averaging 51 with the bat and 22 with the ball at FC level from a small sample size. That's not sustainable long term in the Shield let alone at test level, but that's where he sits right now. The most important thing is that we find someone to bat at 6 that consistently make runs and stay at the crease when the pitch isn't bitumenised. Personally I don't care that much what Green does with the ball if he performs with the bat. I'd rather have a guy averaging 45 who bowls the odd spell here and there than a guy averaging 30-35 with bat and ball. But that's me. Bowling stats for all rounders are only of so much value because they don't usually bowl as many overs or get the new ball and a slip cordon etc. Batting lower in the order you don't get as much opportunity as an opener, but it's not like ODI cricket where you can bat at 6 and 7 and chip in with a quick 20 or 30 and that's enough. If like Marsh you play 20 odd tests and average 25 you aren't doing enough.

Steve Waugh finished with almost 11,000 runs @ 51 and 92 wickets @ 37. Took him years to be a consistent run scorer and he barely bowled the last 10 years of his career, but early on he was batting low in the order and in the side as an all rounder. Green's done enough to stay in the team for the rest of the series, and unless he fails dramatically I think he stays for the next series too. Needs to be given a decent run as a batsman and if he bowls a few overs great.

Until about 1989 Waugh was chosen as all rounder first & batsman second. This was also about time when wicketkeeper including Healy averaged under or around 20.

 

[corbies]

The squad is picked, it won’t change over the course of the series due to hub requirements

Well they've just left Burns out of it haha

 

[Docker82]

That's such a rigid & boring approach to selection - every team would look same. How about you pick your best players & fill spaces around them based on need??
In 2015 England has success picking two players in ali & stokes on all round ability who wouldn't have made it under "best six batsman..." approach.

Ben Stokes would be in England’s top six batsmen even then, if not extremely close. As I said you make exceptions if players are good enough. These days him being in England’s top six batsmen isn’t even debatable.

Moeen Ali only got games because England’s spin options were as embarrassing as ours post Shane Warne. I do not rate him whatsoever.

 

[11kgm]

Burns dropped completly from the squad

Warner and Puc join the squad

I was thinking

Warner
Puc
Lab
Smith
Henriques
Green

 

[Westend]

Burns dropped completly from the squad

Warner and Puc join the squad

I was thinking

Warner
Puc
Lab
Smith
Henriques
Green

Nah not Henriques shouldn't even be in the squad

Wade at 5

 

[11kgm]

Nah not Henriques shouldn't even be in the squad

Wade at 5

Deal just get rid of the liabilities

 

[Woody15]

Burns dropped completly from the squad

Warner and Puc join the squad

I was thinking

Warner
Puc
Lab
Smith
Henriques
Green

I know everyone has different opinions with how the team should look but Henriques? Seriously? You want to go into the 3rd test with a player returning from injury, a rookie opener, a rookie at 6 in Green and then on top of all that drop possibly our best performing batsmen in Wade and bring in an average all rounder in Henriques?!

Crazy talk.

 

[murphster]

Can’t believe they are going ahead with the Sydney Test, what does this mean for the 4th test in Brisbane because they won’t be allowed into Qld from Sydney without 14 days of isolation, do they play both tests in Sydney?

 

[BronCrow]

Can’t believe they are going ahead with the Sydney Test, what does this mean for the 4th test in Brisbane because they won’t be allowed into Qld from Sydney without 14 days of isolation, do they play both tests in Sydney?

Couldn't agree more. Ridiculous to be playing the next test in the Sydney. Should have swapped Brisbane and Sydney around.