Ongoing Test match XI speculation thread.

[eddiesmith]

Is there any precedent for playing an inferior bowler (read: Starc) against the weaker sides (WI/SL/Pak) and keeping an out and out pro fresh for the stronger teams?

The guy's stats are heavily skewed toward minnows and D/N games it's ridiculous.

The argument has come up before with your Davey Warner and Khawaja being FTBs at home but useless if the ball swings or spins, but it's unfair on the player expected to play only on tough pitches and never gets an opportunity at home.

But it's interesting how many bowlers have had very short careers because they're brought in against the top sides on flat pitches then never get another chance.

You debut v Pakistan at the GABBA and you have a fair good chance of a good career, debut against South Africa at the WACA and you're ****ed.

 

[eth-dog]

Wish Australia had non all rounder like that

He can certainly bat, but he has a FC average of 16. To me you need it at least 20 before you can be considered a bowling allrounder

 

[Docker82]

He can certainly bat, but he has a FC average of 16. To me you need it at least 20 before you can be considered a bowling allrounder

To actually get a game above number 8 surely got to average around 30-35.

Anything below that you’re either a bowler who’s handy at best with the bat (and bat 8 or below) or not good enough for test cricket.

In regards to number 8, well you want to make sure you have at least four test quality bowlers in the line up. Wouldn’t select an all rounder at 8 unless they meet that criteria.

 

[Pippen94]

Mitchell Starc has played multiple innings that were better than Shardul's. He has a 99 in India. He's not an allrounder.

Looked more of a batsman than starc who just slogs.
Wasim Akram was averaging 16 when he scored his first century.

 

[Donakebab]

Warner a 300 & two other 100's last year!!!

That was in 2019, the same year he averaged 9.5 in England with three blobs. The series before that was Sandpapergate where he averaged 36.16 before getting kicked out of the tour. He's on very thin ice, only saved by the fact our batting depth is woeful.

 

[Pippen94]

That was in 2019, the same year he averaged 9.5 in England with three blobs. The series before that was Sandpapergate where he averaged 36.16 before getting kicked out of the tour. He's on very thin ice, only saved by the fact our batting depth is woeful.

That was the last season because of covid. Guy putting up those numbers regardless of competition is not in danger of being dropped

 

[big_e]

Is there any precedent for playing an inferior bowler (read: Starc) against the weaker sides (WI/SL/Pak) and keeping an out and out pro fresh for the stronger teams?

The guy's stats are heavily skewed toward minnows and D/N games it's ridiculous.

We did change the side because of the conditions from time to time - two spinners in the sub continent, four quicks at the WACA, Chris Rogers in the 2015 Ashes - but it's gone out of favour lately. Not sure why, particularly when it seems to work.

 

[corbies]

We did change the side because of the conditions from time to time - two spinners in the sub continent, four quicks at the WACA, Chris Rogers in the 2015 Ashes - but it's gone out of favour lately. Not sure why, particularly when it seems to work.

We did it in the 2019 Ashes too.

 

[The hands of stone]

Gut feel Warner will pull the pin at the end of our next Summer and hit the 20/20 circuit.
Paine will be gone along with Wade and Lyon.

Potentially a lot of change in 12 months with an injury prone young opener in the line up too.

You would hope and trust the selectors are looking ahead.

 

[The Passenger]

We did change the side because of the conditions from time to time - two spinners in the sub continent, four quicks at the WACA, Chris Rogers in the 2015 Ashes - but it's gone out of favour lately. Not sure why, particularly when it seems to work.

We did it in the 2019 Ashes too.

I think the selectors consider the gap between Starc and Neser (or Abbott) to be too large to consider a "horses for courses" selection policy. Whereas in 2019 we had Pattinson and Siddle and two spinners on the subcontinent is pretty standard policy.

Debatable a 34 year old version of Siddle was that close to "the big four" - even in English conditions where he had done well in 2018 - and not sure I agree that there would be a huge gap in performance between Starc and Neser if the latter was given an opportunity, but I can see the selectors thinking. On paper, Starc should be miles in front of Neser, but in the longer form of the game Starc's talent has still not truly been fulfilled whilst Neser has made a career out of proving people wrong.

There is a strong consideration that Neser would have bought some life into the attack for this test, because from what I saw in the first innings it was a tired bowling group. Thank god we didn't have to bowl first in this match.

 

[Broar]

Is there any precedent for playing an inferior bowler (read: Starc) against the weaker sides (WI/SL/Pak) and keeping an out and out pro fresh for the stronger teams?

The guy's stats are heavily skewed toward minnows and D/N games it's ridiculous.

He has to be fighting for his test career tomorrow right? It's crazy how he escapes all criticism in the media with some of his performances lately. I don't think he's actually improved as a test player at all. Yes he has a great record in taking a wicket in his first ten balls and yes he's a little better than others at cleaning up the tail but he hasn't been doing this enough lately. The rest of his bowling is just headless chook stuff.

 

[Bollox]

Gut feel Warner will pull the pin at the end of our next Summer and hit the 20/20 circuit.
Paine will be gone along with Wade and Lyon.

Potentially a lot of change in 12 months with an injury prone young opener in the line up too.

You would hope and trust the selectors are looking ahead.

Good call re Warner. Why be critiqued about the real game when you can play hit and giggle for even bigger money.

Much will depend on his mortgage and marital bliss. Give our Davey a $ sign on the boundary and he can hit it all day long.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

Gut feel Warner will pull the pin at the end of our next Summer and hit the 20/20 circuit.
Paine will be gone along with Wade and Lyon.

Potentially a lot of change in 12 months with an injury prone young opener in the line up too.

You would hope and trust the selectors are looking ahead.

Genuine question -- Outside of the IPL (which Warner already plays), is there that much money on offer on the 20/20 circuit? Don't get me wrong, if you're a fringe player or in the twilight of your career and not up to international standard, I know it's pretty good. But in Warner's case, would it be worth giving up a CA contract (and the corresponding endorsements.... which to be fair, have probably dried up since sandpapergate), to be able to play in, say, Bangladesh? Warner has three kids, and by all accounts is a pretty committed family man.

 

[Tugga27]

Good article in The Australian by Gideon Haigh on Wade and the Shield.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

 

[Pippen94]

Good article in The Australian by Gideon Haigh on Wade and the Shield.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

What's the bet he says t20 is killing cricket?!

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Reckon the Test team wont change much for the next 12 months. To the end of January 2022, Oz plays 3 tests in South Africa - similar pitch conditions to Oz, and then 1 against Afghanistan and the Ashes in Australia.

The national selectors and Langer who has some say in selection, are pretty conservative. Cricket Australia needs the Ashes to go well from a financial point of view and claw back some of the big losses from Covid. They will encourage the selectors not to be taking big risks.

Assuming there aren't lots of injuries, I can see 9 of the 11 playing in this test will play in the majority of these 9 tests coming up over the next 12 months. Pucovski will be played whenever he is fit enough. He is a 10 year player. They might experiment in the test against Afghanistan.

9 tests x 11 players = 99, I can see the 10 players below taking up 75-85 of those positions.

At the end of January 2022 I think there will be big changes and in Bob Marley's words there will be an exodus of Jah people. In bold is who I think will go. In brackets is their age as at 31/1/22.

After the Ashes test series, Oz play 2 tests v Pakistan in UAE, 2 tests v Sri Lanka away, 1 test v Afghanistan in India, and 4 tests v India away. These 9 tests on low slow wickets will drive generational change IMO.

Warner (35.2), Pucovski (24), Labuschagne (27.6), Smith (32.7), Green (22.6), Paine (37), Cummins (28.7), Starc (32), Lyon (34), Hazelwood (31)

Unless Cricket Australia have a big change of heart they will want Paine to stay as captain until the end of the Ashes. Smith is the only logical replacement unless they do the very unconservative thing and give Cummins a go. It would require a massive mindset shift. The only fast bowler to captain Oz since WWI has been Ray Lindwall for 1 test.

 

[Tugga27]

What's the bet he says t20 is killing cricket?!

I can post the whole article if it's allowed.

Here is an excerpt.


Averages tend to be indicative rather than definitive: two not-outs in that sequence may have led on to substantial innings. But it’s arguable that what has kept Wade ensconced are two things: the long-term paucity of Australian batting talent, and the steady marginalisation of Australian first-class cricket. There aren’t enough good young batsmen to play in four-day cricket that isn’t happening anyway.

The next best are either biosecurely confined (Will Pucovski, Travis Head, Moises Henriques) or idling in the Big Bash League (Peter Handscomb, Joe Burns, the brothers Marsh, Kurtis Patterson, Matthew Renshaw).

This season’s Sheffield Shield hiatus began on November 11; it will not resume until February 12. What even is the competition any more? As a real-time guide to selectors, it has become almost entirely useless.

With a domestic cricket structure that militates against change, Wade has become the Tasmanian devil you know. And to carry on choosing him has been to invest in a certain approved image of the team: tough, gutsy, unselfish, hardworking etc.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

This season’s Sheffield Shield hiatus began on November 11; it will not resume until February 12. What even is the competition any more? As a real-time guide to selectors, it has become almost entirely useless.

Pretty much the exact point I've made in a couple of other threads previously... I wonder when I can expect a cheque from the Australian

 

[Hamingja]

Reckon the Test team wont change much for the next 12 months. To the end of January 2022, Oz plays 3 tests in South Africa - similar pitch conditions to Oz, and then 1 against Afghanistan and the Ashes in Australia.

The national selectors and Langer who has some say in selection, are pretty conservative. Cricket Australia needs the Ashes to go well from a financial point of view and claw back some of the big losses from Covid. They will encourage the selectors not to be taking big risks.

Assuming there aren't lots of injuries, I can see 9 of the 11 playing in this test will play in the majority of these 9 tests coming up over the next 12 months. Pucovski will be played whenever he is fit enough. He is a 10 year player. They might experiment in the test against Afghanistan.

9 tests x 11 players = 99, I can see the 10 players below taking up 75-85 of those positions.

At the end of January 2022 I think there will be big changes and in Bob Marley's words there will be an exodus of Jah people. In bold is who I think will go. In brackets is their age as at 31/1/22.

After the Ashes test series, Oz play 2 tests v Pakistan in UAE, 2 tests v Sri Lanka away, 1 test v Afghanistan in India, and 4 tests v India away. These 9 tests on low slow wickets will drive generational change IMO.

Warner (35.2), Pucovski (24), Labuschagne (27.6), Smith (32.7), Green (22.6), Paine (37), Cummins (28.7), Starc (32), Lyon (34), Hazelwood (31)

Unless Cricket Australia have a big change of heart they will want Paine to stay as captain until the end of the Ashes. Smith is the only logical replacement unless they do the very unconservative thing and give Cummins a go. It would require a massive mindset shift. The only fast bowler to captain Oz since WWI has been Ray Lindwall for 1 test.

If we don't get the job done today it is going to be a loooooong time before we beat India in a test series again.

 

[Seagrave_Holmes]

100 tests for Lyon and he hasn't figured out how to bowl to right handers. It's painful to watch.

 

[Manbearpig77]

I can post the whole article if it's allowed.

Here is an excerpt.


Averages tend to be indicative rather than definitive: two not-outs in that sequence may have led on to substantial innings. But it’s arguable that what has kept Wade ensconced are two things: the long-term paucity of Australian batting talent, and the steady marginalisation of Australian first-class cricket. There aren’t enough good young batsmen to play in four-day cricket that isn’t happening anyway.

The next best are either biosecurely confined (Will Pucovski, Travis Head, Moises Henriques) or idling in the Big Bash League (Peter Handscomb, Joe Burns, the brothers Marsh, Kurtis Patterson, Matthew Renshaw).

This season’s Sheffield Shield hiatus began on November 11; it will not resume until February 12. What even is the competition any more? As a real-time guide to selectors, it has become almost entirely useless.

With a domestic cricket structure that militates against change, Wade has become the Tasmanian devil you know. And to carry on choosing him has been to invest in a certain approved image of the team: tough, gutsy, unselfish, hardworking etc.

CA are systematically destroying cricket through incompetence and greed.

Look at India's schedule. They play 4 months straight of Ranji trophy (FC cricket) then go and play the full IPL (when Covid isn't a thing), hence their incredible depth.

Everyone with a brain cell knows the BBL goes for too long. Go back to its heyday in 2016 and shorten the damn thing. Obviously it's about money and the great challenge of sport, like art, is balancing the business/commerce side of things. Firstly take it off 7 and Murdoch who've been disastrous, as obviously they're only looking to ring it dry for maximum profit. Give it back to 10, who made it what it is and actually seem to care about it as a competition as opposed to a mere product.

We need to have a serious look at our domestic schedule and try and get a full Shield season in before late Dec/Xmas, then run a truncated/compressed BBL, which people will actually want to watch and enjoy, then maybe run into the Marsh cup to finish the summer.

I get that it's a challenging balancing act but as it stands right now, it's just awful. Anyone can see that.

It's easy for people to blame Paine and Langer for our woes but it quite obviously begins with CA and then they have to make due with whatever they can. Not that they're immune to criticism, they certainly deserve their fair share too.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

As much as I'm critical of the state of the Shield competition, and the impact of the Big Bash, I think something stinks with the coaching setup. IMHO, it takes a fair bit of talent and commitment to score a Test century against a half-decent opposition. Over the last few years we've had Wade, Renshaw, Handscomb, Patterson, Marsh x2, Burns, Khawaja, all perform pretty well in brief patches, and then either (a) fail to fix technical issues, or (b) completely lose confidence / form.

The talent is there, but we aren't capitalizing on it.

If you are India, with a population of 1.2 billion, where everyone is cricket-mad, you can probably afford to be cavalier about discarding players that aren't-quite-up-to-it. We have 1/50th their population (and lots of other competing sports). We need to put more effort into nurturing the talent that comes through.

 

[Scratchy05]

Said it before the summer started and I'll say it again. Pattinson needs to be in the side over Starc. Even Michael Neser or Jhye Richardson. Starc is purely a White & Pink ball bowler at this point.

 

[Manbearpig77]

Said it before the summer started and I'll say it again. Pattinson needs to be in the side over Starc. Even Michael Neser or Jhye Richardson. Starc is purely a White & Pink ball bowler at this point.

Agreed.

 

[hawkman]

If India win this how many test careers could be ended today? Wade? Paine? Starc? Lyon on shaky ground?