Research Origin of Australian Football's Gaelic Origin Myth [+Marngrook]

[Our Game]

"What i would ask is why, why the continual point blank negative assertions ?, both Hay and Zafiris ( other author) are dyed in the wool soccer fans, is that a clue ?, have they set out to discredit the connection between Marn Grook and Football because they are soccer fans, is that a possibility ?"

I reckon thats the guts of it! Wills would have most likely seen Marn Grook played and most likely played it himself when he lived in the Moyston area.

I think it comes down to the fact that nobody can say for sure 100% what the truth is so both could be right..[/QUOTE]

 

[BringBackTorps]

"What i would ask is why, why the continual point blank negative assertions ?, both Hay and Zafiris ( other author) are dyed in the wool soccer fans, is that a clue ?, have they set out to discredit the connection between Marn Grook and Football because they are soccer fans, is that a possibility ?"
I reckon thats the guts of it! Wills would have most likely seen Marn Grook played it himself when he lived in the Moyston area

1. Roy Hay was "equivocal" about a public campaign, in the Footy Almanac in 2016, to create a headstone (it didn't have one) for T.Wills' decrepit grave at Heidelberg cemetery.

In the Comments' section, in the Footy Almanac link below, on 10.5.16, R. Hay said, incorrectly

"If Tom Wills had had his way, we would have been playing by the rules of the Rugby school in England, or something close to them".

Gaz, in his reply to Roy Hay on 10.5.16 in the Comments' section, demolished (by directly quoting T. Wills' anti rugby letter of 1859) this often argued comment by Hay (and G. Hibbins), & some of Hay's other views.
It is noted that R. Hay did NOT make similar "Wills in 1858/59 only wanted rugby school rules" comments in his 2019 book.
Also, apart from soccer promoters & historians Dr Ian Syson & Athas Zafiris (& G. Hibbins), very few historians would agree with R. Hay's above comments; & his strong anti Wills' (re seminal importance in the creation of Melbourne Rules) stance.

Then, on 11.5.16 in the Comments' section, Hay argued a proposed headstone should emphasise T. Wills' cricket career, not football. He also, elsewhere, opposed a new grandstand at Kardinia Park being officially Named the Wills Stand.

Tom Wills grave restoration: one of the fathers of football needs our help

www.footyalmanac.com.au

2. In his new book, R. Hay makes NO mention of the testimony, about 2009, given directly to journalist M. Flanagan by descendant Lawton Wills Cooke (via his grandfather Horace -brother of T. Wills- made by Lawton's mother Renee to Lawton) that T. Wills played Marngrook (as the only white child in the frontier area) with aboriginal children. L.Wills Cooke made similar declarations to the MCC, & the Old Melbournians FC. See post #248 above.

At pg 2, R. Hay writes "...evidence in support of the argument (ie a Marngrook influence on 1858/59 Rules, because Wills watched and/or played Marngrook with his young, aboriginal playmates, his ONLY young companions - my words) remains lacking and the myth continues to flourish".

At pgs 249-250, R. Hay has written (in one of his further additional demotions of T. Wills' influence)

"One of the problems in the current debate about the origins of Australian rules football is that relatively very little is known about the other characters who played the early game in Victoria, some of whom seem to have been AT LEAST AS INFLUENTIAL AS WILLS (my emphases), Harrison, Thompson, and Hammersley. George Reynolds Rippon is one such figure".

These are the remaining comments in his book, in the following paragraphs in their entirety relating to Rippon's football involvement, re Victorian Rules. Are these all the reasons that R. Hay is basing his views that G. Rippon "...seem(s) at least as influential as Wills"?

"He was an all-round athlete, administrator and journalist. He was amongst the best of Geelong's cricketers and footballers, and for some time was president of the Geelong Football Club, first elected in 1860...He first appears in Geelong team lists in 1863. He kicked the winning goal for Geelong against Melbourne in the Caledonian Cup Match on 12 September 1863...In 1872, whilst still vice-president of the Geelong Football Club, Rippon was one of the handicappers for the Geelong Easter Sports and it may have been his influence that resulted in Albert "Pompey" Austin (Aboriginal- my word) being selected for the football team... He was on the staff of the Geelong Advertiser but left Geelong in July 1876 to become editor and later proprietor of the Hamilton Spectator".

I am not aware of any historian claiming G. Ripon seems "at least as influential as Wills" in the 1858/59 origins & Rules.
Even historian G. Hibbins (who is strongly anti Wills & anti Marngrook influence), who wrote in 2008 in the official history her personal views about the games origins & Founders, made NO mention there of G. Rippon!

Apart from one official AFL tweet alerting its followers to the publication of R. Hay's book a few months ago, AFAIK, the AFL have not given any other publicity to his book, nor were any AFL official acknowledgements made at its book launch yesterday at the MCC library. Ditto Aboriginal organisations. The silence is deafening.

3. This is a summary of R.Hay's very lengthy background promoting soccer. He is an historian of Australian soccer & the A League; & also, early Scottish soccer (his biography of his grandfather, James Hay, who played for Scotland). He has reported on local soccer for decades, AFAIK (after he came to Australia in 1977).
He has done work for the FFA & FFV, & is on its panel of soccer historians.

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4. Can anyone open this Geelong Advertiser article of 7.6.19?

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or Google" Press Reader Geelong Advertiser Academic rejects"- then open it.

The Geelong Adveriser article of 7.6.19 mentions "Academic rejects footy's indigenous start... Hay argues that one time Geelong Advertiser editor George Ripon was as important as Wills...".

5. I may as well put this here.

Tomorrow, at the MCC Library at the MCG, between 12.30-2, there is a panel discussion by Sport Historians etc. on the subject of "Rare Sport Books and Ethemera: The Collectors and Collections". The discussion is open to the public, ring for attendance details, if interested.

Rare Book Week – Rare Sports Books and Ephemera (Wednesday July 10th)

www.footyalmanac.com.au

 

[Our Game]

I would take a soccer tragic like Hay's opinion of Australian Football ( yes the real Australian Football not the Pommie soccer version) with a grain of salt!
Thomas Wills along with Harrison, Thompson,and Hammersley all deserve recognition in helping to get our great and unique game started.Because of the passage of time and Wills tragic end we will most likely never know the 100% true story.

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[RogersResults]

For any unaware of it, this article:
"GENESIS OF AUSTRALIAN
FOOTBALL

Debt To Rugby"

Has recently had its text cleaned up.

GENESIS OF AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL - Debt To Rugby - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Aug 1937

History is made as we go. The historian surveys events in a far perspective and presents a cold dispassionate record . The chronicler, writing of what he has seen and known, gives flesh and blood to the dry bones ...

trove.nla.gov.au

More on T.S. Marshall here:

Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club | Theophilis S. Marshall

Blueseum: History of the Carlton Football Club

www.blueseum.org

 

[Our Game]

3. This is a summary of R.Hay's very lengthy background promoting soccer. He is an historian of Australian soccer & the A League; & also, early Scottish soccer (his biography of his grandfather, James Hay, who played for Scotland). He has reported on local soccer for decades, AFAIK (after he came to Australia in 1977).
He has done work for the FFA & FFV, & is on its panel of soccer historians.


That totaly undermines any opinion this soccer person has about out great game!I believe Martin Flanagan is the best opinion

 

[BringBackTorps]

There is an enlarged engraving image, in this post #254 above, of young Aboriginal children playing Marngrook. Note how at least one has his arms raised, ready to catch the ball that is being kicked by the player opposite. The 1862 engraved image, re-discovered c. 12 years ago, is probably the earliest depiction of anyone playing any code of football in Australia.
This above image is from an etching created from the writings of William Blandowski, a Polish explorer in the Mildura region in 1856-57, who witnessed Aboriginals playing Marngrook. It should not be part of The History Wars- but some soccer promoters have "claimed" it.

Yet soccer historian, soccer promoter & FFA appointee Dr I. Syson, & some other soccer fans, argue the above engraving appears to be a scene of Aboriginals playing a variant of the European soccer pastime, keepy-uppy (ie short kicking of a soccer ball, through the air, to friends nearby, to keep it in the air as long as possible before it hits the ground: handling not permitted). Roy Hay, in his writings, has also linked Syson's theory it could be Aboriginals playing a soccer-type game.

Craig Foster, soccer commentator/promoter, is adamant the engraving depicts Aboriginals playing an ancient soccer-type game.
AFAIK, no other sport historians have written in support of Syson's and/or Foster's claims.

Football is Australia’s true indigenous game | The World Game

Let the fact be acknowledged that the first Australians, the oldest living culture on earth of which we are immensely proud, played football.

theworldgame.sbs.com.au

Dr Syson has written that soccer/dribbling-type games, when the Rules were first written in 1858/59, influenced some of rulemakers- "soccer was close by".
He, also, wrote Carlton may have played a soccer match in the 1860's; & that local Victorian Rules players & journalists may have been subject to "code confusion" as to the type/origin of game they were playing in the early eras. AFAIK, he is the only historian making such claims.

Dr Syson regularly writes articles which portray AF & its fans very poorly- &, with R. Hay & G. Hibbins, is the fiercest critic of any Marngrook connection to Wills & the Origins of Melbourne Rules/AF.

Another Fozzie Pot Shot in the Code War

A blog about Australian soccer and Australian soccer history

neososmos.blogspot.com

(I suspect that the writer in the Comments' section of Syson's blog- neoscosmos, using the pseudonym JH, is a prominent sports historian, who has published, regularly & a very vehemently, strong views against a Marngrook connections to the Origins. He & Syson are close collaborators)

Australia's rich football history to be honoured by new FFA heritage committee

C. 2 weeks ago, Ashley Browne, in the AFL Football Record, gave his List of the best 10 books on AF over the last 10 years. R. Hay's new book on Aboriginal involvement in AF in the 19th century did not, unsurprisingly, get a mention. The AFL has, AFAIK, totally ignored R. Hay's book (except for 1 AFL tweet, that the book had been finalised).
The MSM has, also, virtually ignored it- even though its post 1872 history, of Aboriginal involvement in playing AF in the 19th century, is good.
I expected to see detailed commentary & reviews from professional historians, but they are yet to materialise. Are they waiting for more information and/or the book from Prof. J.Hocking/ N.Reidy & their team from Monash (which will argue strongly for a pro Marngrook influence on the 1858/59 Rules- probably the emphasis given to catching the ball & a free kick, sometimes jumping for the ball; kicking from the hand, keeping the ball off the ground, & no offside (which, uniquely, allows a goal sneak to loiter around the goal, mark/free kick & kick a goal).

 

[RogersResults]

Cave paintings found in the Lascaux caves in France dated to 17,000 years ago seem to depict a football game.
Now do a search for 'Harpaston'.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Roy Hay appears to be further emphasising his new approach that Scottish folk football may have had an influence on the 1858 & 1859 rule makers.

Scottish folk football, in some parts of Scotland, was played over an enormous area, had no posts of any type, no formal scoring system (apart from getting the ball across a designated line, by any means) & no offside rules.
Hay is promoting the fact that Scottish folk football (as did early rugby & soccer variants, under certain conditions) allowed the ball to be caught (& sometimes given a free kick)- & argues this may be relevant to the discussions of the Origins.

There is no evidence the rule makers, Wills, Hammersley, Thompson & Smith had any knowledge of Scottish folk football/were influenced in any way by it.

R. Hay is a Scot who came to Australia c. 1977, living in Geelong, & reported on Geelong-area local soccer matches for the Geelong Advertiser newspaper for decades from the late 70's. He has also written about the history of soccer.

Hay said 29.10.19

Re Melbourne Rules 1858- 1865 "...I have another article... on the Scottish influence on the early game, which has been very largely ignored...the Scots had a lot to do with the early development of footy...".

Whooshkaa Shows

player.whooshkaa.com

(The discussions on 19th century AF begins at the 16 minutes 40 second mark. His above comments commence at 18 mins. 30 seconds)

 

[Aut Vincere Aut Mori]

Gaelic football .... with Behind posts ?, wonder when this photo was taken, obviously before 1887 when the posts of Gaelic were enshrined to be 2 uprights with a crossbar and net.

http://football-origins.com/27-paddy-power-the-gaa-and-the-foundation-of-gaelic-football/

Edit, the photo states it was the 1903 GAA all Ireland final.

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Aut Vincere Aut Mori]

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Gaelic Football used the above goal post formation up to 1912. In 1913 the GAA changed it to the current set up of two uprights and a crossbar. In the pre-1913 goals, 3 points were scored for a ball going through the ‘soccer’ goals and one point between the two other posts but outside the ‘soccer’ goal.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[RedV3x]

Scottish folk football, in some parts of Scotland, was played over an enormous area, had no posts of any type, no formal scoring system (apart from getting the ball across a designated line, by any means) & no offside rules.
Hay is promoting the fact that Scottish folk football (as did early rugby & soccer variants, under certain conditions) allowed the ball to be caught (& sometimes given a free kick)- & argues this may be relevant to the discussions of the Origins.

Quite meaningless really as that description fits all football of the time in that all football was played on large open fields, with almost no rules though a caught ball was usually rewarded with being untouchable. Football was an excuse for a "scrap".

The Gaels were quite organised in their community games so there is a case that they might have influenced football generally but The Scotts have to join a long list of possible influences on Australian Football.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1. The Age M. Gleeson 25.7.21

Carlton FC will soon be putting a vote to its members, to change its Constitution- to formally acknowledge "...the contribution of the First Nations People to the formation of the game (of 1858 & 1859 Melbourne Rules. My emphasis, & words in brackets)".

Blues extend voting rights, recognise game’s Indigenous origins

The Carlton Football Club will recognise women and Indigenous people in its constitution, and allow AFL members who support the Blues to vote in club elections.

www.theage.com.au

This not a new development.
The AFL officially recognised, previously, an aboriginal influence in the Melbourne Rules of 1858 & 1859:-

. the comments of T. Hosch, AFL Social Inclusion Manager, who said on 14.6.19 re the 1858 & 1859 Melbourne Rules

"...is a game born from the ancient traditions of our country...Marngrook, a HIGH MARKING game played in Victoria's western districts (& in Melbourne [ including Collingwood Dights Falls until 1860]/many other Vic. areas), pre-european settlement, UNDOUBTEDLY influenced what we now understand as the modern AFL football code. We... recognise the Aboriginal ORIGINS of the game in this statement...The sharing of oral history by Aboriginal elders has changed the understanding of Marngrook within the AFL industry (My emphases, & words in brackets)".

. Since at least the early 1990's, the AFL's former Official Historian, C. Hutchinson, had the belief there was, probably, an aboriginal influence- via T. Wills' regular playing with aboriginal children (as the only white child in this Moyston frontier area of western Victoria).

In 1998, as the AFL's official historian, C. Hutchinson co-authored & opened the monument/descriptive gazebo at Moyston. This monument recognised T. Wills & Marngrook's seminal early contributions to the1858 & 1859 Melbourne Rules.

http://monumentaustralia.org.au/themes/people/sport/display/32785-thomas-wentworth-wills-/photo/1

. In 2015, in his address in Canberra to the prestigious National Press Club, AFL CEO G. McLachlan reinforced the aboriginal/Marngrook involvement in the game's creation when he said

"As Australia's only indigenous game, with STRONG (my emphasis) links to the Aboriginal pastime known as Marngrook, we have been fortunate enough to have indigenous culture and indigenous Australians help SHAPE (my emphasis) our game".

The AFL considers the primacy the 1858 & 1859 rules gave to marking was due to the influences of marngrook on the young T. Wills.





2. FIRST EVER RECORD, IN 5000 YEARS OF WRITTEN HUMAN HISTORY, OF A NON-ABORIGINAL PERSON JUMPING HIGH IN THE AIR TO CATCH A BALL IN A CONTESTED FOOTBALL MATCH, IN ANY FORM OF FOOTBALL, ANYWHERE?

Dr G. de Moore states that, in the mid 19th century, names of individual boys from the Rugby School were rarely mentioned in Bell's Life In London newspaper, re Rugby School football match descriptions- but Bell's Life in London in 1854 wrote

"...his football prowess at Rugby made its way on to the national stage, when he was mentioned in newspaper reports. According to one report 'Wills, to the admiration of the spectators rose above a mass of boys and displayed an eel-like ability...".


The AFL readily accepts, from the contemporary records, that:-

. founders T. Wills, J. Thompson, W. Hammersley, & T. Smith brought into their early meetings the football Rules of Rugby, Harrow, Eaton, & Winchester Schools only.

. these British schools are the antecedents of Melbourne Rules.

. Melbourne Rules was a unique game from 1858 (where marking was strongly promoted- without the legal prescription to have, simultaneously, both feet on the ground; & goals could be kicked from a mark & free kick, with no offside rule- thus promoting "despicable goal-sneaking").

 

[RogersResults]

Recognising Marngrook as an influence on Australian Football is a nice gesture, but there is no actual evidence for it. It can only be supposed.

Although known in Rugby and American Football, the high catch is more a feature of Australian Football because kicking the ball is much more prevalent. In 1866 having to bounce the ball while running with it, was introduced with the intention of discouraging running with the ball and encouraging kicking (which made for a more open a free-flowing game). Once kicking became more prevalent and catching the ball from a kick meant a 'free kick', then it would be almost impossible to imagine that players would not begin to jump in order to catch the ball.

One side note: In the early rules 'mark' (and actually still today) meant not the 'catch' but the spot on the ground where the catch was made and from where an unimpeded kick could be taken.

 

[RedV3x]

Recognising Marngrook as an influence on Australian Football is a nice gesture, but there is no actual evidence for it. It can only be supposed.

There is evidence of the possible influence of Marngrook on Australian Football
just like there evidence of other influences.
We simply don't know exactly how to attribute influences of creation but rather it seems most can be attributed to trial and error.

 

[RogersResults]

There is evidence of the possible influence of Marngrook on Australian Football
just like there evidence of other influences.
We simply don't know exactly how to attribute influences of creation but rather it seems most can be attributed to trial and error.

If there was a murder in the city that you live in then it is possible that you are the murderer, but that is in no way evidence that you are the murderer.

That Tom Wills could have seen ‘Marn-grook’ or something similar being played is possible but there is no evidence to make that a fact. Nor is there evidence to make any supposed influence on Wills in turn, influencing the football game being played in Melbourne in from the late 1850's, a fact.


There is however direct evidence that what became Australian Football was strongly influenced by the football rules of Rugby School. If not familiar with, see the preface of Geoffrey Blainey’s ‘A Game of Our Own: The Origins of Australian Football, it is here on ‘Google Books’:
https://books.google.com.au/books?i...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also if not seen: ‘The Genesis of Australia Football – The Debt to Rugby’
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/180838827

And if not already done, while on ‘Trove’ do a newspaper search for ‘Marngrook’.

 

[RedV3x]

That Tom Wills could have seen ‘Marn-grook’ or something similar being played is possible.

Various aborigines have been reported to have actually played Marngrook with Tom Wills.
that's why the AFL are acknowledging a link to marngrook.

There is however direct evidence that what became Australian Football was strongly influenced by the football rules of Rugby School..

The exact OPPOSITE is true.
The first and subsequent rules effectively ruled out any links to rugby.
it is recorded that the first committee wanted nothing to do with the rules of rugby.
Tom Wills is recorded as speaking out against rugby.

The fact is, we don't don't know exactly what influences football the most.
We do know that they experimented by trial and error before drawing up the first set of rules.
That experimentation is greatly under-rated and so-called "influences are over-rated.

 

[RogersResults]

"Various aborigines have been reported to have actually played Marngrook with Tom Wills.
that's why the AFL are acknowledging a link to marngrook."

Reported by who? Source???


"The exact OPPOSITE is true.
The first and subsequent rules effectively ruled out any links to rugby.
"it is recorded that the first committee wanted nothing to do with the rules of rugby."

Where is it 'recorded'? Reference?

"Tom Wills is recorded as speaking out against rugby."

Reference?

You either did not read 'The Genesis of Australian Football' - or if you did,
failed to notice:

"The present generation of footballers
is doubtless unaware that
we are entirely indebted to Rugby
for the introduction of football
to Victoria, and that although the
two games are now widely divergent,
It must be conceded that
the matrix of the Victorian game
was Rugby."

"A meeting was called and rules were
framed. In these were embodied what
were considered the best points of the
old established games ...."

"and coming from the fountain head of
English football he (Tom Wills), with Hammersley
and Thompson, naturally inclined Rugby-wards, "

 

[RedV3x]

"Various aborigines have been reported to have actually played Marngrook with Tom Wills.
that's why the AFL are acknowledging a link to marngrook."

The first and subsequent rules effectively ruled out any links to rugby.
"it is recorded that the first committee wanted nothing to do with the rules of rugby."

Where is it 'recorded'? Reference?

"Tom Wills is recorded as speaking out against rugby."

Reference?

Australian Football, rugby - foundations and codification

"Rugby was not a game for us, we wanted a winter pastime but men could be harmed if thrown on the ground so we thought differently." Yes, tackling and rugby rules were out, but we still don't know exactly what was in. It was possible to take possession of the ball unless it was on the ground.

www.bigfooty.com

You either did not read 'The Genesis of Australian Football'

Such an amazingly poor piece of work by a so-called "historian

 

[maroon and blue]

Tom Wills and his generation were part of the Victorian era which saw an absolute explosion of new ideas. (wish we had these people today). Tom was a mixture of genius and of frailty. He developed The Australian Football, short and simple. From his immersion in a new colony gold rich, and full of social invention he was able , and given the freedom, to produce a sport which transcends all others. His western district youth gave him insights to aboriginal culture. This he carried through to the creation of a new game. A world class game, Australian Football.

 

[RedV3x]

Tom Wills and his generation were part of the Victorian era which saw an absolute explosion of new ideas. (wish we had these people today). Tom was a mixture of genius and of frailty. He developed The Australian Football, short and simple. From his immersion in a new colony gold rich, and full of social invention he was able , and given the freedom, to produce a sport which transcends all others. His western district youth gave him insights to aboriginal culture. This he carried through to the creation of a new game. A world class game, Australian Football.

Yes, but he didn't do it alone and we should also acknowledge those that helped him.

 

[The_Wookie]

There is evidence of the possible influence of Marngrook on Australian Football
just like there evidence of other influences.
We simply don't know exactly how to attribute influences of creation but rather it seems most can be attributed to trial and error.

marngrooks entire contribution to Australian football rests on the fact that no one mentions it being involved. Ergo, the absence of evidence is in itself supposedly evidence. Not helped by people like Gibbons missing information, or many opposing researchers being soccer historians like Ian Syson or rugby guys like Sean Fagan. But guys like Mark Pennington who wrote an extensive history of the game prior to federation couldnt find any evidence either.

There exists letters from people involved in the discussions and documentation regarding the discussion around english school rules, not one of which mentions marngrook or aboriginal influences.

Wills himself was only involved in the may 1859 rule drafting - 4 of these rules were changed in july 1859 - he was not there, nor was he there in 1860 when the rules were done again. People cite the high marking as a feature, but this doesnt really make an appearance until the 1880s, the key thing being to keep the ball off the ground as Australian grounds were too hard.

we know he proposed rugby rules, and that they were disregarded by the other 6 people on the committee - all of whom were europeans without the exposure that Wills may or may not have had.

"Nothing in Wills’ voluminous correspondence with the newspapers and with his family and friends offers the slightest hint of any borrowing from Indigenous games. Nor, more importantly, do any of the tactical and legislative innovations he introduced or suggested in the formative period of the domestic game."

Indigenous players didn’t invent Australian rules but did make it their own

The revival of the idea of Indigenous influence on the origins of Australian rules football diverts attention from another, much more uncomfortable story about Indigenous relationships to football.

theconversation.com

Historian and psychiatrist Greg de Moore, who wrote a biography of Wills, said there were descriptions of Aboriginal ball games where Wills lived in western Victoria.

“The problem is, we don’t know whether he saw them, played them and knew of them,” Dr de Moore told the Herald Sun. “And even if he did know of them, and even if he did see them, we don’t have any archival evidence that he used that to help him create the game in 1858-1859.”

No Cookies | Herald Sun

No Cookies

www.heraldsun.com.au

 

[RedV3x]

marngrooks entire contribution to Australian football rests on the fact that no one mentions it being involved.

It doesn't appear in western culture but definitely appears in aboriginal culture.

Wills himself was only involved in the may 1859 rule drafting - 4 of these rules were changed in july 1859 - he was not there, nor was he there in 1860 when the rules were done again.

Yes, he credited with the original founding but story is much wider and longer than that simple beginning.

People cite the high marking as a feature, but this does'nt really make an appearance until the 1880s.

I think that's much too narrow of view to expect "high marking as a feature". Simply kicking and catching as a design feature is a major change from ad hoc kicking and catching. Jumping to catch is a major innovation. I don't know if you classify that as "high marking" but high marking is an occasional feature.

we know he proposed rugby rules, and that they were disregarded by the other 6 people on the committee - all of whom were europeans without the exposure that Wills may or may not have had.

When you look at the first and early rules of football there is absolutely no suggestion of a link to rugby. Obviously when tackling replacing pushing and hacking there it is more logical to suggest some synergy. When people look at the evolution of Australian Football only the kick and catch feature has endured.

 

[The_Wookie]

It doesn't appear in western culture but definitely appears in aboriginal culture.

The founding of Australian football is well within the bounds of western history and there is plenty of material available about the foundation of the game. There is no mention of it being part of the foundation anywhere at the time, or indeed until it suited certain agendas to have it made so. Theres no coincidence that the AFL finally agreed to the Marngrook theory happening rather than being just a plausible theory, at the same time they made an apology to Adam Goodes.

Yes, he credited with the original founding but story is much wider and longer than that simple beginning.

hes PARTIALLY credited with it, along with 7 other gentlemen, and according to every document ever sighted on the subject from people that were there, Wills tried for rugby rules, and no one mentions anything about native sport. Ever.

I think that's much too narrow of view to expect "high marking as a feature". Simply kicking and catching as a design feature is a major change from ad hoc kicking and catching. Jumping to catch is a major innovation. I don't know if you classify that as "high marking" but high marking is an occasional feature.

They could just as well have been playing an aboriginal version of hackey sack.

When you look at the first and early rules of football there is absolutely no suggestion of a link to rugby. Obviously when tackling replacing pushing and hacking there it is more logical to suggest some synergy. When people look at the evolution of Australian Football only the kick and catch feature has endured.

Which were available in other english school games at the time as well.

 

[RedV3x]

There is no mention of it being part of the foundation anywhere at the time,

Which is completely understandable considering the situation back then.

hes PARTIALLY credited with it.

He's popularly credited with founding Australian Football because that's what history tends to do and that's forget the details.

They could just as well have been playing an aboriginal version of hackey sack.

Did you seriously mean to write that or did that just slip out?
Marngrook has been well documented.

Which were available in other english school games at the time as well.

That's where people don't think deeply enough.
The "fair catch" was common across most English football including the official Association Football.
We don't know if the "fair catch" was in Gaelic Football because there are no early descriptions, Gaelic games were a lot more organised than English games.
We do know that an aboriginal game that was basically kick-to-kick did exist and if you believe aboriginal reports then Tom Wills played Marngrook
and probably was inspired to incorporate this feature.
The "fair catch" was removed from soccer and the "fair catch" in rugby was always a confused affair.
The handball existed in football from early on but it took a long time before handball came into it's own.