Discussion Our 2012 draftees

[Persevering Saint]

Slight change Squizz, for mine. Would like Montagna on the wing, and a rotation of young guys taking his spot in the guts throughout the year: Ledger, Ross, for starters.

 

[Persevering Saint]

I will say, though, in line with Squizz, that a LOT of the problems we're having in the backline, will be alleviated by fixing our UTTERLY WOEFUL performance in the clearances last year. Win the clearances, it goes up to our forwards, not to our backs. You can have a bunch of nuff-nuffs in the backline if the ball is never there (I don't think we DO have a bunch of nuff-nuffs, btw, but you get my point).

Better rucking, and better inside mids = easier backline. Macca should do better next year around the grounds. Stanley should take centre bounces and then go straight back to CHF. And Hickey comes in when either of those get injured. Then we wait a year or so for Pierce to become an ABSOLUTE BEAST.

Get young-uns in the guts to learn beside Hayes and Dal, watch as Armo and Steven begin to improve. Win.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Lenny has to be in the guts. Can't see him being anywhere near as effective in other roles at his pace.

Should be Hayes, Armitage, Dal Santo, Montagna and Steven rotating through there.

Whilst there's temptation to use Dal in a role (such as the wing or in replacing Goddard as a sweeper off half back) where his kicking skills could be maximised, winning the stoppages has to be the #1 priority - and Siposs and Dunell provide viable options for those roles (Gilbert also pushed up at times onto the wing, and watching Newnes play with more freedom in the VFL saw some wonderful 50m passes running close to full pace). Also seems UDL is expected to play on the wing (hard to see his role otherwise)?

yeah I didn't take the Lenny thing too seriously. I guess my point with DalSanto is, that at some point in the future someone has to step up and be better than him.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Absolutely. For all the romance from Lenny winning the B&F last year, let's not kid ourselves - it was pretty darn terrible for the club. When a 32yo with a dodgy knee and a ticky heart is better than everybody else on the list, that is a problem.

The two other young ball winners at our club, Armitage and Steven, got 66 and 65 votes respectively. That is HALF what Hayes got. The highest younger player was Geary at 80 (coming 6th). The rest of the young players (other than Simpkin) were the cellar dwellars of the B&F - that is partially because of lack of games in the season, but still. Armo and Jack are the BIG concern - they played pretty much every game, and are (God in all His mercy help us) the future of our inside game. THIS is far, FAR more concerning than our backline.

 

[tbarker]

I know Knightmare in his mock draft write up reckons Wright is very capable of winning his own ball and with his competitive nature, ideal inside mid build and reputation for being able to win one-on-one contests, it's hard to argue that he wouldn't be able to play a role in the guts going forward. He can use his pace and strength to burst out of packs, Jack Steven, Patty Dangerfield-style and then pump it long forward. We could probably get away with him having less than ideal kicking skills if playing in the guts more than we would if he was playing down back, where you need good, precise kicking to get you out of there.

On the other hand, he could give us another option for the "smalls" down back, to help Geary and Dempster out back there, especially with Gram gone now. He would have the speed to go with many/most of them and his extra height, strong marking and big leap would be an asset in marking contests against them.

So he does give us a bit of versatility.

Yeah - fair enough guys - I probably went a bit OTT about Wright. I am obsessed with efficient kicking because we lost about 5 games due to Ray, Gilbert and Gram all shanking kicks. I though elite kicking was our priority? IMO - take a punt on a guy later in the draft if he can't kick. That said - Wright's explosion, ability to read the play and sharp hands (he holds the ball out nicely like Geary when handballing) all point towards an inside mid (agreeing with previous posts) where most have low percentages anyway because they are under pressure and the long kick is the typical option (of which Wright is better). From memory Judd's kicking efficiency is low but who cares - he is a gun and if Wright gets anywhere near Judd then we are on a winner. I feel some comfort that Winmar2Lockett has taken him onboard because Murphy's law dictates that Wright will be a Brownlow Medalist and W2L will tell me about it for the next 10 years. As an aside - has anyone got some footage of Wright other than the stuff on the Saints website?

For mind - Shenton and Staley can go and we can pick up Colquon and Pongracic.

As for Big Boy - I fear that the rules keep changing - but not in his favour.........

I have taken Winmar on board so I will wear it if he doesn't work out but for mind he has the most upside but if he doesn't perform this year then he has to go.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Absolutely. For all the romance from Lenny winning the B&F last year, let's not kid ourselves - it was pretty darn terrible for the club. When a 32yo with a dodgy knee and a ticky heart is better than everybody else on the list, that is a problem.

The two other young ball winners at our club, Armitage and Steven, got 66 and 65 votes respectively. That is HALF what Hayes got. The highest younger player was Geary at 80 (coming 6th). The rest of the young players (other than Simpkin) were the cellar dwellars of the B&F - that is partially because of lack of games in the season, but still. Armo and Jack are the BIG concern - they played pretty much every game, and are (God in all His mercy help us) the future of our inside game. THIS is far, FAR more concerning than our backline.

Yep, I think it's do or die for Jack next year. He can either stay a good solid player for the rest of his career, or he can take the step up to A grade. I'm not sure on Armo, he's 25 next year, is it too late for him?

 

[tbarker]

I will say, though, in line with Squizz, that a LOT of the problems we're having in the backline, will be alleviated by fixing our UTTERLY WOEFUL performance in the clearances last year. Win the clearances, it goes up to our forwards, not to our backs. You can have a bunch of nuff-nuffs in the backline if the ball is never there (I don't think we DO have a bunch of nuff-nuffs, btw, but you get my point).

Better rucking, and better inside mids = easier backline. Macca should do better next year around the grounds. Stanley should take centre bounces and then go straight back to CHF. And Hickey comes in when either of those get injured. Then we wait a year or so for Pierce to become an ABSOLUTE BEAST.

Get young-uns in the guts to learn beside Hayes and Dal, watch as Armo and Steven begin to improve. Win.

Very good point.

Big Boy got embarrassed at times last year and it affected the whole team. I think we will know who the preferred Ruckman is by about round 5 when the new rules have bedded down. Keep Stanley out of the Ruck IMO and let Hickey and BBM do it all. Kosi can help at training....

 

[Persevering Saint]

The reason I say Stanley to take the centre bounces, is because the new rules for the centre bounce really lend themselves to a ruck with a big leap who prefers low impact in the contest. Stanley can jump over Nic Nat at the centre bounce. Around the ground, more wrestling etc mean that Stanley is a BAD idea if we want him to stay fit, but the centre bounce won't bother him.

 

[saintsrfreak]

The reason I say Stanley to take the centre bounces, is because the new rules for the centre bounce really lend themselves to a ruck with a big leap who prefers low impact in the contest. Stanley can jump over Nic Nat at the centre bounce. Around the ground, more wrestling etc mean that Stanley is a BAD idea if we want him to stay fit, but the centre bounce won't bother him.

Wasn't the centre bounce already low contact? I was under the impression that the new rule stops ruckmen from wrestling each other during ruck contests around the ground.

 

[Squizz]

Slight change Squizz, for mine. Would like Montagna on the wing, and a rotation of young guys taking his spot in the guts throughout the year: Ledger, Ross, for starters.

I guess my point with DalSanto is, that at some point in the future someone has to step up and be better than him.

Absolutely that would be preferred - if they step up (Newnes is a top midfield prospect too - hopefully he and Seb can avoid the 2nd year blues).

 

[Squizz]

Wasn't the centre bounce already low contact? I was under the impression that the new rule stops ruckmen from wrestling each other during ruck contests around the ground.

As soon as the boundary umpire lets the ball go, they can go back to mauling each other. The athletes should be able to pinch a few more hitouts, but there will still be no substitute for a canny experienced ruckman with a big arse.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

 

[hayes]

Murdoch used to living away from family and friends, which means no go home factor at all from any of the draftees. Love it.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Murdoch used to living away from family and friends, which means no go home factor at all from any of the draftees. Love it.

I haven't seen the video yet, but I hear that he is from an area that is pretty much just as close to Melbourne as it is to Adelaide, so as far as I'm aware he doesn't have any family in Adelaide.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The stats say that Lenny is our best clearance player ( but they also say Ross is second best so go figure ).

Good though we think he is Lenny's stats pale a bit compared to the best contested ball winners.

The best team was Sydney for contested disposals and the Hawks for clearances ( how about that ).
Sydney averaged 145CP's to StKilda's 137 . Gap analysis says we need to find 8 more contested balls a game. ( So its not insurmountable )
Hawks averaged 42 clearances to StKilda's 37.

Average Contested disposals per game?
Josh P Kennedy 16.9, Kieren Jack 11.7 , Ryon O Keefe 11.6
Sam Mitchell 12.5, Sewell 12.3, Lewis 9.4
Lenny 10.8, Dal 10.6, Steven 9, Montagna 8.5, BJ 8.2, Armo 7.8 ( Ross 7).

Average Clearances.
Mitchell 6.4, Sewell 5.8 , Lewis 4
J P Kennedy 7.6, Jack 4.8 , O Keefe 4.8
Lenny 5.4, ( Ross 5), Dal Santo 4.5 , Montagna 3.9, Steven 3.8, Armitage 3.8

Interestingly Sydney seem very reliant on one man.

Sydney averaged 42 Hitouts, Hawthorn 40, StKilda 34.

We could concievably get more hitouts with a fit ruck all year, but I guess the other question is, are we tapping to advantage?


We had 21 players ( including Kosi, and Polo ) who averaged 5 or more contested disposals per game.
Sydney had 20 ( including Walsh )
Hawks had 19 ( including Broc McCauley ).

The AFL site gives time on ground for the year, and if I extrapolate by dividing the total cp's by the fraction of time spent on ground it gives a theoretical maximum contested disposals if that player was fit enough to play 100% of the season.
( yes Ross only played 1 game so his statistics arent statistically statistics. ).
Extrapolated Maximum CP index
Ross 350
Lenny 305
DalSanto 277
Steven 247
Ledger 222
Joey 220
Armo 219
BJ 206
CJ 177
McEvoy 175
Ray 173
Polo 168
Riewoldt 167
Blake 162
Geary 161
Gilbert 158
Sippos 142
Dunnel 140
Gram 140
Kosi 139
Stanley 139
Dempster 136
Newnes 135
Saad 135
Milne 122
Schnieder 122
Raph 116
Milera 113
Wilkes 108
Peake 100
Cripps 97
Simpkin 87
Gwilt 72

 

[hayes]

Ross' stats are a bit inflated because it was against GWS, but even still to do that in one half is a great effort seeing as though nobody else really came close. He really bashed and crashed in that game and you can tell our youngsters relished the opportunity to go against players of similiar size, Ross in particular. Give it a couple of years and they'll be doing it against AFL players.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ross' stats are a bit inflated because it was against GWS, but even still to do that in one half is a great effort seeing as though nobody else really came close. He really bashed and crashed in that game and you can tell our youngsters relished the opportunity to go against players of similiar size, Ross in particular. Give it a couple of years and they'll be doing it against AFL players.

Yeah I like the idea of getting more games into Ross and Ledge. I also wonder if we are better with Saad running through the middle and Schnieder closer to home, ( but Saad does really REALLY cool stuff near the goals ).

I'm worried though, without BJ and Gram, if we dont play Jones there is a lot of slack we need to pick up.

 

[hayes]

Yeah I like the idea of getting more games into Ross and Ledge. I also wonder if we are better with Saad running through the middle and Schnieder closer to home, ( but Saad does really REALLY cool stuff near the goals ).

I'm worried though, without BJ and Gram, if we dont play Jones there is a lot of slack we need to pick up.

IMO it almost has to come from those guys. If one or both can stand up that would allow Dal to play on a wing to finish off the good work. There might be some growing pains but it will be worth it in the long run.

Or maybe we could just throw Curren in there to avoid the growing pains as he would probably have the biggest set of guns at the club. Can he be our nominated rookie if Winmar is delisted?

I still think the most important player in all of this is Macca. He needs to start becoming competitive in the ruck. He's getting better, but some taps to advantage would be nice.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

IMO it almost has to come from those guys. If one or both can stand up that would allow Dal to play on a wing to finish off the good work. There might be some growing pains but it will be worth it in the long run.

Or maybe we could just throw Curren in there to avoid the growing pains as he would probably have the biggest set of guns at the club. Can he be our nominated rookie if Winmar is delisted?

I still think the most important player in all of this is Macca. He needs to start becoming competitive in the ruck. He's getting better, but some taps to advantage would be nice.

I think we'll pick up someone in the PSD if Winmar is delisted, Which means we can't have a nominated rookie can we?

 

[aussierulesrules]

I'm worried though, without BJ and Gram, if we dont play Jones there is a lot of slack we need to pick up.

Yeah, you're not wrong there. I thought we could cover BJ well enough, if we had a good run with injuries, and really go hard again next year (especially once we landed Lee and Hickey and hearing how highly the club rates them), but losing Gram, on top of BJ, stings.

Just watching the replays of our games on Foxtel again over the off-season so far, even though the two of them weren't necessarily getting a heap of the ball, what they did when they got it was generally very good and polished (even most of Gram's kicking) and they generally made good decisions when they had it and were cool under pressure with the ball. They were also two of our very best in some of our big do-or die games at the back end of the year, against the likes of Collingwood and Geelong, when we had it all on the line. Gram's last game, against Carlton, was a ripper, too. Replacing all of that, including their big bodies, is not necessarily going to be easy.

We're going to really need the likes of Schneider, Gilbert, Ray, Steven (who to me was generally not as good this year as he was last year, so I'm hoping for a big step up next year), Armo (who can take it up another notch, I believe) Siposs and Ledger to step up and we'll also ideally need Dal to get back to more like his form of 2011 and for Joey to maybe get back to his 2009/2010 best form again, for us to get back up to the pointy end (which I know we can). If someone like Ross, Markworth, or Newnes are able to pull one out of the box in their 2nd year, or if Lee comes in and goes bang, off the bat, that will also be a big help.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Wright is the other one, whatever anyone says about kicking, tell 'em to **** off. The kicking ability isn't that bad, he is simply running to fast to slow balance prop and deliver, coaching him will get this out of his game. Everything else though guys he does really well. Can take a strong grab, rebounds well, reads the play well, tackling technique good, I wouldn't be worried what anyone says, he could go on and play 150+ AFL games for sure.

Goodly luck for 2013 guys and here's hoping these two in particular can go on and forge strong careers at the top level.

Cheers for that info re Pierce and Wright, much appreciated and same to you for next year, even though you pinched BJ off us.

Just on Wright, did he spend much time in the guts at all, any time you saw him (or that you've heard)? Given his skill set and physical attributes, he seems like someone who to me could be ideal in the middle, especially given his apparently good 1v1 ability and strength, aggression and speed.

And what are your thoughts on Pongracic?

 

[Defacto]

IMO it almost has to come from those guys. If one or both can stand up that would allow Dal to play on a wing to finish off the good work. There might be some growing pains but it will be worth it in the long run.

Or maybe we could just throw Curren in there to avoid the growing pains as he would probably have the biggest set of guns at the club. Can he be our nominated rookie if Winmar is delisted?

I still think the most important player in all of this is Macca. He needs to start becoming competitive in the ruck. He's getting better, but some taps to advantage would be nice.

i like what you say!!!!! except replace curren with cockie.

dont know about running saad through the midfield, not sure he's there yet. better off going with schneider if his body holds up.

 

[hayes]

I'm not too phased by the experience we've lost. It had to happen eventually so it's better that the experience is phased out rather than it all happening at once. We still have Lenny, Dal, Joey and Ray around to help the transition to the youngsters.

 

[hayes]

i like what you say!!!!! except replace curren with cockie.

dont know about running saad through the midfield, not sure he's there yet. better off going with schneider if his body holds up.

Yeah I'd rather keep Saad in the forward line as well. He's our Rioli.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Wonder is TDL might have the ability to play BP, allowing Geary to spend some time in the guts, where he could put his elite endurance, strong body and manic attack on the ball/man to good use?

TDL would have the pace to go with the Cyril and Eddie's of the AFL and being 181cm and strong in the air, ought to be able to compete well with them in marking contests as well. Then when he gets the pill himself he ought to be able to use it a lot better than Gears does out of there, with his pinpoint disposal.

We all acknowledge that there probably isn't room for Trent in the forward line, so we probably don't have anything to lose by seeing how he goes down back. Aussie Jones made the transition to defence very well, as did Leon Davis and Brent Guerra, to name but a few. At worst he doesn't do well there and he moves back up forward, maybe with a bit more of a defensive game to him, at best he becomes a real offensive weapon back there, with his speed and kicking skills.