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BigBreakfast

Premiership Player
Sep 19, 2019
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My point was simply if you had been observing Steele for a while his leap was not that surprising. To me Setterfield is the most likely to replicate it.

Also, if we manage to get a player doing a Steele, hopefully we get a Coffield, Clark, Battle and Gresham as well.
My point exactly. Someone who had been around for a while took a leap to the next level. That is likely to come from the 24 + age group, not a young kid bursting through to that level. If one does come on, that’s great. We have been riding these kids for a while now, I’d love a couple to come on. It’s my opinion, based on league wide evidence including premierships at Geelong and Richmond where they aged together. That’s more like what our kids will do in a couple of years time while older bodies carry us into the finals in the short term.

We are going in circles now, I’m done.
 

Arr0w

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Nov 13, 2015
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My point exactly. Someone who had been around for a while took a leap to the next level. That is likely to come from the 24 + age group, not a young kid bursting through to that level. If one does come on, that’s great. We have been riding these kids for a while now, I’d love a couple to come on. It’s my opinion, based on league wide evidence including premierships at Geelong and Richmond where they aged together. That’s more like what our kids will do in a couple of years time while older bodies carry us into the finals in the short term.

We are going in circles now, I’m done.
Spot on

I have to find the article, but it states that successful teams are made up of predominant mid age players, that have built continuity and cohesion together, of course with some outliners at both ends
 

BigBreakfast

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Sep 19, 2019
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Spot on

I have to find the article, but it states that successful teams are made up of predominant mid age players, that have built continuity and cohesion together, of course with some outliners at both ends
100 games seems to be the benchmark for development. I remember Leigh Matthews and Jono Brown on a broadcast talking about the roughly multiple 100 game players as a collective lead to contention. Then youngsters can burst on the scene as the old heads hold up the trenches, as Brown did.
 

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CJMB

Premiership Player
Aug 30, 2017
3,602
12,138
Melbourne
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Spot on

I have to find the article, but it states that successful teams are made up of predominant mid age players, that have built continuity and cohesion together, of course with some outliners at both ends
Might have been something by Ben Darwin and Simon Strachan at Gain Line Analytics. They do a bunch of work for major sports teams and one of the areas they focus on is cohesion analytics.
 

Gethelred

Brownlow Medallist
May 1, 2016
15,290
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Again as I have said before, IMO, the foot soldiers played 2020 very close to their ceiling, I don't see them providing the improvement necessary.

But that doesn't mean all foot soldiers will be replaced but the more we can replace the better our team will be because the replacements will be playing at a high level.
Who - specifically - is a foot soldier? Newnes? Gibbons?

I think both have more to give/show in the right setup. Gibbons is a good deal smarter as a mid than a high half forward, and Newnes is not a defensive player. Put enough defence around Newnes, and he's allowed to get ahead of the play as much as he likes, and all of a sudden that massive kick is an absolute weapon instead of just being long in hope.

I agree somewhat that some players have highers ceilings than we've seen from these types. Where we disagree is that those players within the right context can do what any number of players have done in September, and play beyond themselves for as long as it takes.
 

Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
4,152
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My point exactly. Someone who had been around for a while took a leap to the next level. That is likely to come from the 24 + age group, not a young kid bursting through to that level. If one does come on, that’s great. We have been riding these kids for a while now, I’d love a couple to come on. It’s my opinion, based on league wide evidence including premierships at Geelong and Richmond where they aged together. That’s more like what our kids will do in a couple of years time while older bodies carry us into the finals in the short term.

We are going in circles now, I’m done.
24 (or 22 in Setterfield case) is a lot different to 28 but I am not looking for 1 player to become an AA, I am looking for a number to becme more better than what we have, I would take a Battle, Coffield, Clark and Gresham over 1 Steele.

FWIW I am looking at the likes of Cuningham (23) , Silvagni (23), Marchbank (24), Fogarty, Stocker Dow and even O'Brien (all 21) to emerge, they are hardly young kids, they have all had multiple pre-seasons.

But as I have said previously, not trying to change your mind, just explaining my opinion.
 

Macca43

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2011
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Who - specifically - is a foot soldier? Newnes? Gibbons?

I think both have more to give/show in the right setup. Gibbons is a good deal smarter as a mid than a high half forward, and Newnes is not a defensive player. Put enough defence around Newnes, and he's allowed to get ahead of the play as much as he likes, and all of a sudden that massive kick is an absolute weapon instead of just being long in hope.

I agree somewhat that some players have highers ceilings than we've seen from these types. Where we disagree is that those players within the right context can do what any number of players have done in September, and play beyond themselves for as long as it takes.
Put that defence around Williamson instead.
 

Gethelred

Brownlow Medallist
May 1, 2016
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Williamson has more run, daring and aggression.
But while he's a long kick, he needs run 15+ metres to get the ball to go 60 quickly. Our players actively spent most of last year deliberately looking for Newnes when we needed distance, because 60m is nothing to him off a step.

I have a lot of interest in Williamson off a wing, but Newnes is not Williamson. He has different attributes, and is a viable option at goal from a much longer distance without running in. In the right setup, he's a 25+ goal option within 50+ metres at goal, whilst playing as HFF or wing and getting 20+ disposals. He's no bottom end player, he's the gloss.
 

BigBreakfast

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24 (or 22 in Setterfield case) is a lot different to 28 but I am not looking for 1 player to become an AA, I am looking for a number to becme more better than what we have, I would take a Battle, Coffield, Clark and Gresham over 1 Steele.

FWIW I am looking at the likes of Cuningham (23) , Silvagni (23), Marchbank (24), Fogarty, Stocker Dow and even O'Brien (all 21) to emerge, they are hardly young kids, they have all had multiple pre-seasons.

But as I have said previously, not trying to change your mind, just explaining my opinion.
I like people who listen to opinions and are at least prepared to acknowledge others and be prepared to be inclusive of others. As I said, I’m done.
 

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Earls Smother

Team Captain
Oct 4, 2019
531
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I disagree. Tigers were in no mans land for a long time before the majority of their players hit the critical age/experience bracket. Even forgetting the Tigers, there are 7 other spots up for grabs
My points there were mainly about 2 players - McIntosh and Baker. Most of their supposed role players can all run, not just endurance-wise, they are quick. Look at the impact Butler had at St.Kilda.

I've spent a lot of the xmas/new year period telling my in-laws (nearly all Tigers) that they are the worst "dominant" side of recent times in terms of talent. There is no side that can say they have been unlucky to lose in Richmond's 3 premiership years - they've just all been sh*t. Adelaide terrible, Giants appalling. If Geelong are the second best team in the comp, then we are not far away. With Dangerfield's groin went the Cat's chances. Their second half was embarrassing for a GF. Brisbane had everything fall their way this season and blew it. Port had home ground advantage, sleeping in their own beds for weeks etc. and couldn't take advantage.

The challengers are not that strong up the top at the moment , hence why sides can do a Brisbane and rise quickly from 14th to 2nd. Saints jumped by adding pace in Jones, Hill and Butler, with improved output from some young blokes. We have every chance to make it our turn for a quantum leap in 2021.
 

CJMB

Premiership Player
Aug 30, 2017
3,602
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Melbourne
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But while he's a long kick, he needs run 15+ metres to get the ball to go 60 quickly. Our players actively spent most of last year deliberately looking for Newnes when we needed distance, because 60m is nothing to him off a step.

I have a lot of interest in Williamson off a wing, but Newnes is not Williamson. He has different attributes, and is a viable option at goal from a much longer distance without running in. In the right setup, he's a 25+ goal option within 50+ metres at goal, whilst playing as HFF or wing and getting 20+ disposals. He's no bottom end player, he's the gloss.
I'm not sure why I'm remembering it now, or how pertinent it is to what you're saying, but Fisher said on the Dyl & Friends podcast that Newnes was his favourite player to play alongside. From memory it was because he cracks in hard, long kick, runs all day, all that kind of stuff.

Can see Newnes being part of a wing/hff rotation alongside Martin & Murphy, while Williamson could be part of the wing/hbf rotation with Williams, Doc & SPS.
 

BigBreakfast

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My points there were mainly about 2 players - McIntosh and Baker. Most of their supposed role players can all run, not just endurance-wise, they are quick. Look at the impact Butler had at St.Kilda.

I've spent a lot of the xmas/new year period telling my in-laws (nearly all Tigers) that they are the worst "dominant" side of recent times in terms of talent. There is no side that can say they have been unlucky to lose in Richmond's 3 premiership years - they've just all been sh*t. Adelaide terrible, Giants appalling. If Geelong are the second best team in the comp, then we are not far away. With Dangerfield's groin went the Cat's chances. Their second half was embarrassing for a GF. Brisbane had everything fall their way this season and blew it. Port had home ground advantage, sleeping in their own beds for weeks etc. and couldn't take advantage.

The challengers are not that strong up the top at the moment , hence why sides can do a Brisbane and rise quickly from 14th to 2nd. Saints jumped by adding pace in Jones, Hill and Butler, with improved output from some young blokes. We have every chance to make it our turn for a quantum leap in 2021.
And this year we added speed to companion internal growth. Every reason to be up and about in 21.
 

spry

All Australian
Feb 23, 2019
942
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Again as I have said before, IMO, the foot soldiers played 2020 very close to their ceiling, I don't see them providing the improvement necessary.

But that doesn't mean all foot soldiers will be replaced but the more we can replace the better our team will be because the replacements will be playing at a high level.
I am hoping that team cohesion improves significantly.
Such that without an uptick in individual performances we’ll be finishing plays and playing better as a team overall.
 

gbatman

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Mar 26, 2008
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Williamson on a wing would be worth a shot because he's quick and a good user but I don't have a huge amount of confidence there. He's not great below the knees so I doubt he would ever be a top wingman but then again neither is Newnes although he is better than Williamson. Williamson with ball in hand though is a good thing anywhere on the ground as he's such a damaging kick. I would hope the extra running needed to play wing would not flair up his back. Worth a shot but to me Williamson just has some kinks in his game that suggest he is being played right where he plays best.

IMO our best players for wing are Walsh who was elite in this position last year and Martin who possess all the attributes of a top wingman. Newnes is an elite endurance runner, tough nut and big long straight kick so I can see him fitting in there as well. Swapping with Martin between wing and forward.
 

The Bighouse

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 28, 2009
5,176
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Williamson on a wing would be worth a shot because he's quick and a good user but I don't have a huge amount of confidence there. He's not great below the knees so I doubt he would ever be a top wingman but then again neither is Newnes although he is better than Williamson. Williamson with ball in hand though is a good thing anywhere on the ground as he's such a damaging kick. I would hope the extra running needed to play wing would not flair up his back. Worth a shot but to me Williamson just has some kinks in his game that suggest he is being played right where he plays best.

IMO our best players for wing are Walsh who was elite in this position last year and Martin who possess all the attributes of a top wingman. Newnes is an elite endurance runner, tough nut and big long straight kick so I can see him fitting in there as well. Swapping with Martin between wing and forward.
Hoping that Williamson gets 1st crack on the left wing. A year back & some confidence with it, he seemed a cleaner player in his debut year that what was on show last year, and I thought he was pretty crisp yr1.

If Walsh doesn’t move in board, then he’s on the right wing. I quite like the idea of J. Martin on that wing (also as the starring HFF) if Walsh is pinned for on-ball duties. Allows for Gibbo, Fogarty or maybe even Philp or Honey in the fwd line.
R: TDK - Setterfield - Williams
C: Walsh - Cripps - Williamson
 

gbatman

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Hoping that Williamson gets 1st crack on the left wing. A year back & some confidence with it, he seemed a cleaner player in his debut year that what was on show last year, and I thought he was pretty crisp yr1.

If Walsh doesn’t move in board, then he’s on the right wing. I quite like the idea of J. Martin on that wing (also as the starring HFF) if Walsh is pinned for on-ball duties. Allows for Gibbo, Fogarty or maybe even Philp or Honey in the fwd line.
R: TDK - Setterfield - Williams
C: Walsh - Cripps - Williamson
It's one of many tough selection calls this season. Williamson is a player you want with ball in hand because he is such a good kick. I remember him being a bit cleaner early days as well but he just didn't look great below the knees this last season.

Walsh will be very good wherever you play him. He's the perfect prototype winger. Tough, elite runner, quick, ball magnet and great skills. I can see Martin being freed up to play where ever this season. We will have Silvagni back, we have added Durdin and Fogarty and there are a number of others who could play half forward and that is with our regulars in Betts, Gibbons and Fisher. Keen eyes on Honey, Philp and Owies as to how they go as well.

Our onball group is going to be Curnow, Cripps, Setterfield and Williams and whoever else bobs up. Murphy is going to have to play somewhere. Dow and Stocker could well be ready to come into the team and play there and IMO this frees up Walsh for the wing. IMO there aren't too many on our list who are good wingers and certainly not elite like Walsh is but we have plenty of onballers without Walsh playing there.

Terrific problems to have and the idea that some really talented young guys could be ready to step in and the injection of speed we will have is very exciting.
 

gbatman

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I would really like to see Stocker bust through the selection line & make good this year from round 1 (and NOT as a defender). Skills would be a major boost for the team.
My thoughts exactly, out of all our young midfielders he is the one I rate the most and most want to see come into the team.
 

Ash24

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Nov 3, 2020
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Hoping that Williamson gets 1st crack on the left wing. A year back & some confidence with it, he seemed a cleaner player in his debut year that what was on show last year, and I thought he was pretty crisp yr1.

If Walsh doesn’t move in board, then he’s on the right wing. I quite like the idea of J. Martin on that wing (also as the starring HFF) if Walsh is pinned for on-ball duties. Allows for Gibbo, Fogarty or maybe even Philp or Honey in the fwd line.
R: TDK - Setterfield - Williams
C: Walsh - Cripps - Williamson
Spot on with everything.

~ Cripps, Setters and Ed as the main inside mids.
~ Willo taking one wing, Walsh taking the other (spending time on-ball as well).
~ A variety of other options, rotating to keep the midfield mix nice and fresh e.g. Williams, SPS, Murphy, Fog, Gibbo, Martin etc.
 

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